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  1. #1

    How would you extend the dwarves' role and lore since Cataclysm ?

    Recently I did a similar thread to discuss the gnomes' lack of lore and of a real role in the Alliance and main story in WoW, today I have decided to talk about their cousins who are also underused : the dwarves.

    While they are one of the Alliance's most iconic, important and powerful races and have had a big role in Vanilla, the dwarves of Ironforge have had since a largely decreased role and presence in the story, especially after Cataclysm and the creation of the Council of the Three Hammers. Outside of Brann and Magni Bronzebeard most dwarven characters have had a very secondary or tertiary role in the Alliance and the main plot since this expansion with the reunification and its difficulties and consequences having been rather underused, and their role as the industrial backbone and 2nd technology head of the Alliance not being shown.

    How would you develop or have developped the lore and story of the dwarves to remedy this ? What would you have done to explore deeper dwarven culture, the dynamics between the reunited clans and each clan's strengths and weaknesses, as well as their relations with the other races and internal and external politics following Magni's petrification ? How would you have used them as a major player of the Alliance and in Azeroth ?

    What storylines should have been exploited better or created ?

  2. #2
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Bronzebeards are generic dwarves and boring.

    Wildhammers had interesting stuff going on with their Griffon riding and shamanism, but then Blizzard started associating Griffons more with Stormwind, and it seems that Blizzard isn't interested in reconciling different theologies (Dwarves and Draenei worship the Light, but you have some of those same people who worship spirits? Are Dwarves and Draenei polytheists, or do they not worship the spirits and instead view them as lower tier beings? What is their view on the Dark Iron dwarves' worship of Ragnaros?), and Blizzard seems to want Shamans to be aesthetically Horde.

    Dark Iron Dwarves are the most interesting. Interesting visuals with their black iron armor, grey skin, black beards (that sometimes burn!) and red glowing rune magic. They live in a city inside a volcano. Lots of fire elementals. Distrust of outsiders and has a lot of bad blood with almost everyone. Unfortunately, they were pretty much forgotten after Vanilla, only getting a brief update in Cata and MoP. They're now an allied race, but the treatment of allied races in the story has been terribly handled, with some decisions being nonsensical (Nightborne joining the Horde makes about as much as sense as the Forsaken and the Blood Elves doing so, or the Night Elves joining the Alliance. Which is to say, it doesn't make sense. At all). Blizzard's new writers just can't write interesting faction drama, with BFA's plot being a shitty rehash of MoP and depending entirely on the player's nostalgia for Horde vs Alliance iconography and the characters involved (Anduin, Sylvanas, Genn, Jaina, Saurfang). Nobody cares about the new leaders.

    If I had full creative control and unlimited budget, I would have made Dark Iron Dwarves playable in Cata (not with the current Allied Race system, but as a customization option for Dwarves). With Magni petrified and the Alliance reacting to the Cataclysm and the Horde's invasion, the Dark Irons would have made their move to secure more of the area surrounding Blackrock Mountain. The Dark Irons are still recovering from being the raid in Vanilla (as well as the destruction wrought by the Horde). They try claiming some fertile land for food, prompting a war between the Bronzebeards and the Dark Irons. Players can pick which side to join, with limited PvP between the two sides. Blackrock Mountain is revamped into a player city (hostile to Horde and Bronzebeard aligned players). Have a mini RvR region like DAOC where players can capture zones, and you can push to the enemy's city' and lay siege to it.

  3. #3
    If there were an opportunity to explore anything weird or exotic, I'd like to see the supposed Wildhammer Druid stuff everyone's always clamoring about. Like, I wanna know what they believe in, I want to know how they revere nature, what their rituals are like, how they respect nature and how they serve it. What kind of Wild Gods they deal with, what kind of trances they have, what them going into the Emerald Dream is like if they do, and what their philosophy towards all sorts of different animals is.

    I know we've seen a bit about their Aerie and Gryphons before, and while I'm sure that probably ties into their Druidism a fair bit, I'd like to see what other kinds of animals and nature they have respect and interactions with alongside that so it doesn't come across so one-note.

    The Wildhammer specialize in their gryphon riders, so even having them as scouts to spot the next major threats on the horizon, or having them sense something in their pocket of the Dream that other races are ignoring may be one way to get that kind of connection going with the story. With Falstad being away for so long, it gives Moira a good chance to vie for power and control with him gone (and probably at this point, her son), with Muradin having to deal with that.

    If there's anything else I'd want to see, is some kind of acknowledgement of their Gnomish cousins. The familial relationship via the Titans isn't really explored too much nowadays, and I think it might be cool to see what kind of relationships the Earthen and the Ulduar Mechagnomes have. It might also be time to see kind of where the Frostborn are at and what they still think of Muradin after all this time, now that he isn't leading them anymore. The Frostborn would be pretty useful against any kind of enemy that wields or is weak to ice, as they seem to have a natural affinity for it.

    I guess Earthen in general would be pretty cool to see, generally speaking. I'm not even sure we really have a good idea what Earthen even think of other races, broadly speaking. Seeing some of those connections updated, like their relationship to Night Elves and whether that holds strong still after all these years, would be worth catching up on too.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If there were an opportunity to explore anything weird or exotic, I'd like to see the supposed Wildhammer Druid stuff everyone's always clamoring about. Like, I wanna know what they believe in, I want to know how they revere nature, what their rituals are like, how they respect nature and how they serve it. What kind of Wild Gods they deal with, what kind of trances they have, what them going into the Emerald Dream is like if they do, and what their philosophy towards all sorts of different animals is.

    I know we've seen a bit about their Aerie and Gryphons before, and while I'm sure that probably ties into their Druidism a fair bit, I'd like to see what other kinds of animals and nature they have respect and interactions with alongside that so it doesn't come across so one-note.

    The Wildhammer specialize in their gryphon riders, so even having them as scouts to spot the next major threats on the horizon, or having them sense something in their pocket of the Dream that other races are ignoring may be one way to get that kind of connection going with the story. With Falstad being away for so long, it gives Moira a good chance to vie for power and control with him gone (and probably at this point, her son), with Muradin having to deal with that.

    If there's anything else I'd want to see, is some kind of acknowledgement of their Gnomish cousins. The familial relationship via the Titans isn't really explored too much nowadays, and I think it might be cool to see what kind of relationships the Earthen and the Ulduar Mechagnomes have. It might also be time to see kind of where the Frostborn are at and what they still think of Muradin after all this time, now that he isn't leading them anymore. The Frostborn would be pretty useful against any kind of enemy that wields or is weak to ice, as they seem to have a natural affinity for it.

    I guess Earthen in general would be pretty cool to see, generally speaking. I'm not even sure we really have a good idea what Earthen even think of other races, broadly speaking. Seeing some of those connections updated, like their relationship to Night Elves and whether that holds strong still after all these years, would be worth catching up on too.
    I have always found it lacking that we never saw real interactions between the Wildhammer Dwarves and the Night Elves, given the two's reverence for nature and bond with hawk-like creatures in the grifins and hypogriffs respectively. The knowledge that there is another people who respects and revere nature should have pushed the two to meet with each other.

    And I don't doubt that, in the case where wildhammer druids didn't exist before WoW, that they would have been very interested by druidism and eager to learn it from NE and Worgens.

    And it's true that the relations with the gnomes who are their closest friends and allies, as well with the earthen and Frostborns are seriously undershown and underused.

  5. #5
    Ooh, we could have a dwarf with a strong connection to the earth reawaken from a crystal slumber and help us save Azeroth from a sword wound by killing an unrelated old god.

    Naw, that's dumb.
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    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
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    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Well, first I would use the dwarves as the centerpiece of the Alliance instead of plain boring humans.
    Considering everything the three clans have at their disposal, it's amazing they never get much exposure:
    Engineering, Forges, Gryphons, Golems, Arcane magic...

    The Council of Three Hammers should send their representatives or champions to every major event.
    Not to mention Magni, who has a direct line with Azeroth, can probably sense where threats appear

    Also, please use Magni and Dwarven ingenuity to remove that sword from Silithus
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  7. #7
    The dwarves shouldn't have waited BFA to send large forces in Lordaeron region, to help their stromic and gilnean allies fight the Forsaken back and retake their lands, as well as protecting the Hinterlands.

    I think that the battle for Stromgarde should happened near the end of Cataclysm or during MoP with the dwarves playing a huge role in taking Stromgarde back, and the battle being a test for the reunited dwarven clans' cooperation, their respective strengths such as Wildhammer's shamanism and druidism combined with Bronzebeard's technology and firepower and the Dark Iron's golems and mastery of fire and shadow magics.

    It would also have been a test to see if Dark Irons could work together with the other races of the Alliance, humans and gnomes first.

    Edit: The battle would have been a military but also political victory for the Council of the Three Hammers in favor of the clans' reconciliation and reinforced cooperation.
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-09-06 at 02:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Ooh, we could have a dwarf with a strong connection to the earth reawaken from a crystal slumber and help us save Azeroth from a sword wound by killing an unrelated old god.

    Naw, that's dumb.
    Is that development for the Dwarven race, or just one obnoxious NPC?

    I would like more development of the player races in general, and a bit less focus on about a dozen characters, we know what the main characters are doing, but what are the rest of the people doing?

    To put a twist on a hackneyed phrase: "Put the *world* back in World of Warcraft"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The dwarves shouldn't have waited BFA to send large forces in Lordaeron region, to help their stromic and gilnean allies fight the Forsaken back and retake their lands, as well as protecting the Hinterlands.

    I think that the battle for Stromgarde should happened near the end of Cataclysm or during MoP with the dwarves playing a huge role in taking Stromgarde back, and the battle being a test for the reunited dwarven clans' cooperation, their respective strengths such as Wildhammer's shamanism and druidism combined with Bronzebeard's technology and firepower and the Dark Iron's golems and mastery of fire and shadow magics.

    It would also have been a test to see if Dark Irons could work together with the other races of the Alliance, humans and gnomes first.

    Edit: The battle would have been a military but also political victory for the Council of the Three Hammers in favor of the clans' reconciliation and reinforced cooperation.
    During the Cataclysm point. Gilneas wasn't really allies with anyone given how they cut ties as the plague spread during the third war. Strom had fallen as well amongst Prestor/Noble dealings. When Cataclysm was rolling out we had a slight schism among the Dwarven nations with a Moira trying to take her rightful place in Magni's absence and the other lords working to try and oust the rightful heirs to Ironforge's Throne (either for their own interests of simply being anti Dark Iron.

    Honestly, I don't think Ironforge was in a position to really affect any world objectives at a time when we had Varian sneaking in to assassinate a Dwarven Ruler.

    edit:

    IMO a lot of the good stories or foundation for expanded world building is just lost because every area of the game has to hyper focus on a very limited number of characters... I don't quite understand why we can't dial things back sort of like MoP with more side character to push a narrative.. we didn't follow Garrosh's antics for the entirety of MoP and had nice detours with a range of characters (who really deserve some more presence.. what the hell happened to Rell?). We don't need every character to be directly tied to the high command of every faction. I'll admit it IS nice sometimes, seeing some side character advance (like loading up classic and remembering that the guy sending you to deal with harpies and centaur got a number of promotions and eventually becomes a general)
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-09-06 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Is that development for the Dwarven race, or just one obnoxious NPC?

    I would like more development of the player races in general, and a bit less focus on about a dozen characters, we know what the main characters are doing, but what are the rest of the people doing?

    To put a twist on a hackneyed phrase: "Put the *world* back in World of Warcraft"
    Exactly, how can you speak about the dwarves in general when no other dwarf nor the nation of Ironforge had even a secondary role during Legion, BFA and Shadowlands outside of Magni ?

    It's the same for the Taurens, with the immense majority of focus being set around Baine Bloodhoof while the rest of the Taurens have no role or impact or a very little one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    During the Cataclysm point. Gilneas wasn't really allies with anyone given how they cut ties as the plague spread during the third war. Strom had fallen as well amongst Prestor/Noble dealings. When Cataclysm was rolling out we had a slight schism among the Dwarven nations with a Moira trying to take her rightful place in Magni's absence and the other lords working to try and oust the rightful heirs to Ironforge's Throne (either for their own interests of simply being anti Dark Iron.

    Honestly, I don't think Ironforge was in a position to really affect any world objectives at a time when we had Varian sneaking in to assassinate a Dwarven Ruler.

    edit:

    IMO a lot of the good stories or foundation for expanded world building is just lost because every area of the game has to hyper focus on a very limited number of characters... I don't quite understand why we can't dial things back sort of like MoP with more side character to push a narrative.. we didn't follow Garrosh's antics for the entirety of MoP and had nice detours with a range of characters (who really deserve some more presence.. what the hell happened to Rell?). We don't need every character to be directly tied to the high command of every faction. I'll admit it IS nice sometimes, seeing some side character advance (like loading up classic and remembering that the guy sending you to deal with harpies and centaur got a number of promotions and eventually becomes a general)
    That's Pre-Cataclysm or at the beggining of it, the worgens were already full members of the Alliance and had a big role in Lordaeron story and the support of the Night Elves and Stormwind, especially after their role into wrecking the Horde forces and Garrosh's invasion attempt in Ashenvale; and most attention in Ironforge was already on the Council of the Three Hammers at the beggining of Cataclysm.

    By MoP the dwarves should have had all the means to support their allies and do some major military operations inside and outside Khaz Modan.

  11. #11
    I feel with the multiple factions now trying to work together whilst having so much history and bad blood, there's huge potential for stories with them.

    BUUUTT.... Blizzards in game writing just isn't good enough for that so their whole representation was just diamond Magni conveniently being able to know and do everything and pulling deus ex machinas out his ass to do anything. Genuinely if "Azeroths voice" had just been N'Zoth fucking with him the whole time it would have been much more interesting.

    From what I can remember, even the last big story about the dwarves and the origin of the Council of Three Hammers was just a story in how awesome Varian was though. It's remarkable how much of the writing was just everyone acting incompetent so he could be a badass.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post

    That's Pre-Cataclysm or at the beggining of it, the worgens were already full members of the Alliance and had a big role in Lordaeron story and the support of the Night Elves and Stormwind, especially after their role into wrecking the Horde forces and Garrosh's invasion attempt in Ashenvale; and most attention in Ironforge was already on the Council of the Three Hammers at the beggining of Cataclysm.

    By MoP the dwarves should have had all the means to support their allies and do some major military operations inside and outside Khaz Modan.
    Even then... Ironforge was freshly through their own insurrection/uprising forcibly subdue by an outside force and then later dealing with another uprising of trolls in their borders as instigated by Zul

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I feel with the multiple factions now trying to work together whilst having so much history and bad blood, there's huge potential for stories with them.

    BUUUTT.... Blizzards in game writing just isn't good enough for that so their whole representation was just diamond Magni conveniently being able to know and do everything and pulling deus ex machinas out his ass to do anything. Genuinely if "Azeroths voice" had just been N'Zoth fucking with him the whole time it would have been much more interesting.

    From what I can remember, even the last big story about the dwarves and the origin of the Council of Three Hammers was just a story in how awesome Varian was though. It's remarkable how much of the writing was just everyone acting incompetent so he could be a badass.
    I didn't like how Varian and Anduin were made the aces of the Alliance, with them getting the title of High King (especially wrong in Anduin's case) nor how they were the ones resolving the other races' problems.

    I have always found the idea of Varian, who for a long time was very brash and impulsive man and only tamed his anger recently, teaching Tyrande who has lived for over 10 000 years and has waited extremely long for Malfurion to be laughable at best, nor that Wildhammer would agree to reunite with their cousins and become inhabitants of Ironforge again and members of this council while waiting to be Dagran Thaurissan's subjects without large concessions in their favor and an official engagement between Dagran Thaurissan and a daughter of Falstad or Kurdran Wildhammer to seal the reunification.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    From what I can remember, even the last big story about the dwarves and the origin of the Council of Three Hammers was just a story in how awesome Varian was though. It's remarkable how much of the writing was just everyone acting incompetent so he could be a badass.
    A lot of Varian's awesome build up was to the detriment of everyone else.

    He got a carbon copy "not Thrall" reintroduction in slave fighting pits (that weren't slave rings prior to his storyline). He got to be a better general at 30~y/o than a 15k+y/o ( i don't know how old Tyrande was at the WotA storyline) general... And somehow better able to tame a rage inducing wolf spirit (I really don't know wth they were doing with his plot). But I guess when the dwarves came around and Varian had to get story they just had to have him slip in and try assassinating the "rightful" heir to the throne amidst a somewhat interesting noble's uprising storyline and just lay down the law and force a treaty... nvm his murderous intent prior.

    Real mixed bag but at least he eventually got on a good path and stuck to being a good leader (although not the smartest since he went out face planting on a fel reaver when the broadside guns on the airship were an option....)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I didn't like how Varian and Anduin were made the aces of the Alliance,.
    Varian being High King made a bit of sense. Stormwind typically viewed as having the largest army of all the nations and most military might. Anduin being passed the title simply for being Varian's kid however was out of line.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Even then... Ironforge was freshly through their own insurrection/uprising forcibly subdue by an outside force and then later dealing with another uprising of trolls in their borders as instigated by Zul
    I doubt that was enough for them to be unable of sending forces to help their allies elsewhere once the Ice Trolls had been squashed. And honnestly I doubt that the Ice Trolls would have been that much of a threat against Ironforge given how they were beaten without too much trouble by Varian and Moira's forces, and that realistically they wouldn't have been a match against the dwarves' superior numbers and far superior technology and firepower, nor against Ironforge's defenses that were enough to repel the Old Horde's assaults.

    The only places where the Frostmanes would have really had a chance against the dwarves would have been in their own lands, using the Trolls' classic guerilla tactics.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I doubt that was enough for them to be unable of sending forces to help their allies elsewhere once the Ice Trolls had been squashed. And honnestly I doubt that the Ice Trolls would have been that much of a threat against Ironforge given how they were beaten without too much trouble by Varian and Moira's forces, and that realistically they wouldn't have been a match against the dwarves' superior numbers and far superior technology and firepower, nor against Ironforge's defenses that were enough to repel the Old Horde's assaults.

    The only places where the Frostmanes would have really had a chance against the dwarves would have been in their own lands, using the Trolls' classic guerilla tactics.
    Varian and Moira's forces requested aid to deal with the incursions. And icetroll territory would technically also include the regions outside of the city of Ironforge.. to include a few mines/towns/outposts Ironforge held.

    I think we have an era where there was enough turmoil and infighting WITHIN the city and outside forces badgering outside the city to basically render meaningful aid in any actions to be rather strained.

    Let alone the idea of going to help a former ally that entirely abandoned their allegiance in the past... one that was entirely forced out of their lands at that.

    edit:
    wow timelines are pretty shit. we have these wars, revolutions, genocides and all sorts of crazy events back to back to back within 2 year timespans. Like ok... revolution, martial law lock down and assassination attempts on the kings/queens/lords... so we're good to go field a united army of these people who were LITERALLY at each other's throats 3 weeks ago to go fight in a battle that will take month(s) to reach?

    and then while those forces are out the BBEG we don't know about has been setting up the next total war outbreak in the homelands! while our closest allies are busy with putting down their own old rebellion like fucking CHADS on their own.

    LITERALLY NO ONE can shit talk Gnomes for being best bros. Humans should be like Gnomes and take care of their own shit.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-09-06 at 04:33 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Varian and Moira's forces requested aid to deal with the incursions. And icetroll territory would technically also include the regions outside of the city of Ironforge.. to include a few mines/towns/outposts Ironforge held.

    I think we have an era where there was enough turmoil and infighting WITHIN the city and outside forces badgering outside the city to basically render meaningful aid in any actions to be rather strained.

    Let alone the idea of going to help a former ally that entirely abandoned their allegiance in the past... one that was entirely forced out of their lands at that.

    edit:
    wow timelines are pretty shit. we have these wars, revolutions, genocides and all sorts of crazy events back to back to back within 2 year timespans. Like ok... revolution, martial law lock down and assassination attempts on the kings/queens/lords... so we're good to go field a united army of these people who were LITERALLY at each other's throats 3 weeks ago to go fight in a battle that will take month(s) to reach?

    and then while those forces are out the BBEG we don't know about has been setting up the next total war outbreak in the homelands! while our closest allies are busy with putting down their own old rebellion like fucking CHADS on their own.

    LITERALLY NO ONE can shit talk Gnomes for being best bros. Humans should be like Gnomes and take care of their own shit.
    And yet they managed to deal with them just fine without this help and with a small or medium amount of forces. And Ice Trolls didn't really have the numbers or firepower to really threaten Ironforge and the rest of major towns or military base.

    Also I think that neither Muradin nor Falstad would have been unwilling to lend their help to Danath Trollbane and the people of Stromgarde, for being allies but also because Danath is an old comrade and friend of them as well as Kurdran's best friend, and to relieve Aerie Peak and the Hinterlands in case of a Horde threat. For Moira it could have been an opportunity to show that she and Dark Irons aren't that untrustworthy other than with the Ice Trolls' storyline, but also to show the advantages of having them as allies with their golems, their knowledge and mastery of magic and their own unique tech.

  18. #18
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    They could pick up where the Keepers failed.

    A group of Magni loyalists could set up an organization to help with Azeroth's growth. Revitalizing and reconnecting with other titan construct races to form a defense force larger than one diamond dwarf, a wizard, and a black dragon.

    The Dark irons could further Wrathion's storyline as enemies or allies, as both decide to take up the mantle as Earth Warden.

    They could unlock more Dwarven evolution. Through their titan research, they should be able to become constructs(full or partial) again via arcane magic. Similar to light forged drenaei.

    The council could take up more affairs in Alliance matters and fight for more control over what happens. For stubborn and sturdy people, recently they let themselves get dragged around like toys. Tbh, Anduin failed to get the Alliance gains outside of Kul'Tiras itself. While the war was inevitable, it'd seem more in character for the dwarves to unfairly blame all their shortcomings on Anduin and claim they would've done better. It doesn't need to be a deep confict, just something that emboldens the dwarves to challenge the concept of a High King and forces Anduin and Moira to grow as leaders.
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  19. #19
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    more morally grey stuff like more quarrying and desecrating of lands like I'd love to see them have conflicts with Night Elves, Keepers of the Grove, Furbolgs, Wildhammers, and stuff
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  20. #20
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Well, first I would use the dwarves as the centerpiece of the Alliance instead of plain boring humans.
    Warcraft was built around the orcs vs human aesthetic. The dichotomy between the two is quite stunning: the big hulking, stocky orc, vs a relatively more slender human. Visually, dwarf vs orc isn't as stunning. Dwarf design shares a lot of the shame design as orcs: very stocky. There isn't as much of a visual difference between an orc and a dwarf as an orc and a human, so it wouldn't be anywhere near as iconic (and thus marketable), I'd imagine.

    I never agreed with the idea that "humans are boring". Some fantasy games have made humans interesting, usually by making them oppressed and/or survivors.

    • In WoW, almost every human kingdom has been destroyed out by a genocidal Horde. You are either playing as a survivor or a refugee of a kingdom that was ruined by said Horde (Stormwind or Gilneas, or every other kingdom except Kul'Tiras), or you are playing as the one human kingdom that wasn't wrecked (Kul'Tiras).
    • Similarly, in GW2, almost every single human kingdom has been wiped out, with Kryta being a shadow of its former self and Ascalon being reduced to a small group of guerillas. The writers' handling of the Ascalonian remnants is rather infuriating, though. It's sorta them situation as the Maquis from Star Trek where there is victim blaming and the bloodthirsty genocidal conquerors are treated as the ones in the right).
    • In Mass Effect, humanity are the new kids on the block but are weaker then everyone else, and got conquered by the Citadel and aren't really given proper representation or respect in the Citadel (despite the Citadel ostensibly being an egalitarian, democratic federation, but is actually more of a USA style empire).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Also, please use Magni and Dwarven ingenuity to remove that sword from Silithus
    I think the sword adds some much needed fantasy to the otherwise bland southern part of the continent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The dwarves shouldn't have waited BFA to send large forces in Lordaeron region, to help their stromic and gilnean allies fight the Forsaken back and retake their lands, as well as protecting the Hinterlands.
    That's not a Dwarf exclusive problem; that's a general WoW writing problem, where nearly every faction ceases to exist and doesn't do stuff until they get a small update once every few years. Argent Crusade ceases to exist after Wrath and only gets a 5 minute cameo in Legion where they get unceremoniously wiped out offscreen, when after the defeat of the Lich King they should have been fighting against the Twilight's Hammer. The Grimtotem's treachery sparks conflict with the rest of the Tauren with set up for a future Baine vs Magatha confrontation, but then the Grimtotem are literally never seen again. Several human nations in the EK should be in the process of being resettled. Silvermoon should be in the process of being rebuilt. The Shado-Pan are conspicuously absent after MoP. And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    It's the same for the Taurens, with the immense majority of focus being set around Baine Bloodhoof while the rest of the Taurens have no role or impact or a very little one.
    RIP the Sunwalkers and the Dawnchaser Tribe. Wrath delved a little bit into the theology of the Tauren, where they started thinking "hey, we worship the two eyes of the Earthmother: the sun and the moon. But right now we are only paying respects to the moon! Shouldn't we also pay respects to the sun as well?". And then Sunwalkers were literally never seen again. And you also had the Dawnchaser tribe that sailed to Pandaria to settle in the promised land of the Vale, but then they were forgotten after Krassarang Wilds and you never get to see them settle the Vale. And Dezco ceased to be a character after MoP, and stupidly got shoved into Light's Hope Chapel. Sunwalkers do not worship the Light!



    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I feel with the multiple factions now trying to work together whilst having so much history and bad blood, there's huge potential for stories with them.
    The Forsaken, Blood Elves, Nightborne, and Vulpera never should have joined the Horde in the first place. Night Elves also should never have joined the Alliance in the first place either. If the writing was realistic, those races would promptly leave the coalitions they were shoehorned into (like we saw with the Blood Elves in 5.1), but alas Blizzard is unwilling to diverge from their forced faction setup, so the story makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I didn't like how Varian and Anduin were made the aces of the Alliance, with them getting the title of High King (especially wrong in Anduin's case) nor how they were the ones resolving the other races' problems.

    I have always found the idea of Varian, who for a long time was very brash and impulsive man and only tamed his anger recently, teaching Tyrande who has lived for over 10 000 years and has waited extremely long for Malfurion to be laughable at best, nor that Wildhammer would agree to reunite with their cousins and become inhabitants of Ironforge again and members of this council while waiting to be Dagran Thaurissan's subjects without large concessions in their favor and an official engagement between Dagran Thaurissan and a daughter of Falstad or Kurdran Wildhammer to seal the reunification.
    Also this.

    I like Varian and Anduin as the main Alliance character to follow, but them being able to boss other people around makes no sense. The Alliance isn't a fascist empire led by a warlord dictator like the Horde. The Alliance is a coalition, a defensive pact of different kingdoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    A lot of Varian's awesome build up was to the detriment of everyone else.

    He got a carbon copy "not Thrall" reintroduction in slave fighting pits (that weren't slave rings prior to his storyline). He got to be a better general at 30~y/o than a 15k+y/o ( i don't know how old Tyrande was at the WotA storyline) general
    To be fair, Tyrande was never written well. In WC3 when demons show up, she panicks and immediately runs to awaken Malfurion and ask him for help. You'd think that after 10,000 years of leadership, she'd be a bit more calm and would have coolly assessed the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Varian being High King made a bit of sense. Stormwind typically viewed as having the largest army of all the nations and most military might. Anduin being passed the title simply for being Varian's kid however was out of line.
    I can buy Varian as Supreme Commander of the Alliance to prosecute the war against the Horde, but not a dictator. After he died, Muradin should have probably become the next Supreme Commander leading the war effort.

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