Bard Class Concept - E.T.C World Tour

[DatToffer]

Hi ! I polished a bit the presentation for the Bard fan concept I introduced in another thread, so now I share it with you in its own thread.

I thought I'd bring this version closer to the "original" bard band we could see in the game : the L70E.T.C and relies a lot on the HotS hero.

This concept avoids most of the usual fantasy bard fantasy tropes and instead includes references to other real life bands. As per usual in new class concepts, I made it fill the three roles Tank, DPS and Heal, making it less of a support and more of a melee/mid-range fighter with crowd control. I'm not sure I was able to give the class a really clear direction though.

Enjoy !

[Kiwijello]

I don't mean for this to come off as rude because you obviously put some work into this, but you are not a musician, are you?

[DatToffer]

I don't mean for this to come off as rude because you obviously put some work into this, but you are not a musician, are you?

Haha no. And since English isn't even my first language, I was lost in terminologies. So I referred a lot to the Abilities and Talents of E.T.C in HotS.

What are the mistakes I made ?

[jellmoo]

Well I have two pieces of feedback:

1) Your resources are really weird. Having two specs use a resource with the same name but functioning very differently is kind of confusing. I get what you are trying to do here, but I think that by making each spec so different when it comes to resources used, it makes for overly complex mechanics. Introducing a Healer that doesn't use Mana is almost certainly a massive balance concern.

2) About halfway through I was *really* tired of the puns. It starts of amusing but gets tired quick. Humour elements are nice, but should be sprinkled here and there. While not everything needs to be super serious, a class that feels like a big joke is going to be perceived as one.

[Echo of Soul]

Sadly thus will never happen. Chris Metzen had two demands for the Warcraft universe. No halflings and no bards.

[DatToffer]

Well I have two pieces of feedback:

1) Your resources are really weird. Having two specs use a resource with the same name but functioning very differently is kind of confusing. I get what you are trying to do here, but I think that by making each spec so different when it comes to resources used, it makes for overly complex mechanics. Introducing a Healer that doesn't use Mana is almost certainly a massive balance concern.

Yeah. The idea was for the Ovation to be like rage, with different means of building it up. While the Harmonics were more like Chi. Although I completely forgot to mention Mana and I now feel dumb.

2) About halfway through I was *really* tired of the puns. It starts of amusing but gets tired quick. Humour elements are nice, but should be sprinkled here and there. While not everything needs to be super serious, a class that feels like a big joke is going to be perceived as one.

I guess you're right. You would have seen more "original" spell names and less references to the lexicon concerts and musicians ? Since this is based on the E.T.C which is itself a big cameo, I indulged heavily in RL references.

Sadly thus will never happen. Chris Metzen had two demands for the Warcraft universe. No halflings and no bards.

Really ? Wasn't he like... Part of the studio's big metalheads ? Oh well, I guess it's where he drew the line on included the metal aesthetic in the game.

[jellmoo]

Yeah. The idea was for the Ovation to be like rage, with different means of building it up. While the Harmonics were more like Chi. Although I completely forgot to mention Mana and I now feel dumb.

I think you run into the issue of the class, at a mechanical level, not treading much in the way of new ground. Your tank spec, for example, doesn't really do much that is unique. If your resource is basically just a renamed Rage, you're basically just rehashing gameplay that already exists. The other issue in this area is that it's not super clear what niche each role is intended to excel at. Is your tank spec supposed to be great at avoidance? Self healing? Damage mitigation? Avoiding magical damage? And your healer, is it an AoE specialist? Great at single target? Good at spreading heals over a wide area?

At a mechanical level, I'd love to see the resources reworked into something more unique, and having a clearer vision for what each role should be doing.

I guess you're right. You would have seen more "original" spell names and less references to the lexicon concerts and musicians ? Since this is based on the E.T.C which is itself a big cameo, I indulged heavily in RL references.

Oh, I get it. That's a bit of the issue though. ETC is kind of a joke character, which is fine, but the joke gets a little old the longer you look at it. I think there's a bit of a fine line between paying homage to a concept and making the concept into a joke itself. I think it was "Toss a Coin to Your Adventurer" where I had to stop, roll my eyes and shudder. That one may have been just a bit too much.

[DatToffer]

I think you run into the issue of the class, at a mechanical level, not treading much in the way of new ground. Your tank spec, for example, doesn't really do much that is unique. If your resource is basically just a renamed Rage, you're basically just rehashing gameplay that already exists. The other issue in this area is that it's not super clear what niche each role is intended to excel at. Is your tank spec supposed to be great at avoidance? Self healing? Damage mitigation? Avoiding magical damage? And your healer, is it an AoE specialist? Great at single target? Good at spreading heals over a wide area?

At a mechanical level, I'd love to see the resources reworked into something more unique, and having a clearer vision for what each role should be doing.

I see what you mean and what I missed because of the lack of sleep. At first I was thinking about something akin to the FF14 Dancer, combinations of abilities that would make you feel like following a choreography on your keyboard. But then I was so busy filling the concept with funny spells and references that I didn't really think about an actually engaging gameplay.

Oh, I get it. That's a bit of the issue though. ETC is kind of a joke character, which is fine, but the joke gets a little old the longer you look at it. I think there's a bit of a fine line between paying homage to a concept and making the concept into a joke itself. I think it was "Toss a Coin to Your Adventurer" where I had to stop, roll my eyes and shudder. That one may have been just a bit too much.

Lol yeah. I almost didn't put it in the list, but then I thought "This meme is getting old right ? Surely people don't hate it anymore."

[Sin of Pride]

Given how poorly power infusion breaks wow I don't think we will ever see a buff class in wow. It would require three of them be added and they would take a role away from dps.

The only way to balance them would make it so 2 dps and a buff class always outperform 3 dps of the same skill level. Otherwise you would always take a dps never a bard.

[Kiwijello]

Haha no. And since English isn't even my first language, I was lost in terminologies. So I referred a lot to the Abilities and Talents of E.T.C in HotS.

What are the mistakes I made ?

No worries. I really liked the idea. I am a musician, so some of the terms threw me. For instance, Ovation and Harmonics have nothing to do with each other. Ovation is applause or people clapping for a performance. I would create an ovation spell as a finisher to build up to.

Harmonics has more to do with melody and harmony. Melodic and Harmonic go together musically. Melody is the main theme of the music, where as the Harmonies are the underlying, supporting parts. You could use that to build tiers of spells.

In any case, I really like the idea. I want a bard in game because I am a classically trained musician and singer, so it something close to my heart.

- - - Updated - - -

Sadly thus will never happen. Chris Metzen had two demands for the Warcraft universe. No halflings and no bards.

Chris Metzen is DEAD to me!!! lol

[Raetary]

Sadly thus will never happen. Chris Metzen had two demands for the Warcraft universe. No halflings and no bards.

What Metzen may or may not have said at one point is irrelevant, he's no longer at the company.

If Blizzard decides a Bard class would be a good idea, we will get a Bard class.

[Rootsbum]

This is a little to metal for me acctually, lol.
I want a flute or a lute personally, and be a wonky adventurer

But a fun concept im sure many would enjoy

[Hitei]

Given how poorly power infusion breaks wow I don't think we will ever see a buff class in wow. It would require three of them be added and they would take a role away from dps.

The only way to balance them would make it so 2 dps and a buff class always outperform 3 dps of the same skill level. Otherwise you would always take a dps never a bard.

I think people underestimate utility's role. If raw performance were the only factor than no one except the top melee DPS, top ranged dPS, top healer spec and top tank spec would be taken. It varies season to season and expansion by expansion, but there are frequently classes that are brought solely because of some secondary benefit despite there being better specs for raw output.

The idea that a support class must reach some mythical, unattainable perfect balance to not be a disaster is founded on the mistaken belief that there enough of a stable balance in the default trinity that the addition of a support class would throw everything out of whack. Specs and classes are already brought or not brought based on community perceived values of their performance and utility. A support class would be exactly the same.

You don't need to make it so 2 DPS and a buff class always outperforms 3 DPS, the buff class just has to have a single thing that makes it sometimes worth taking over the 3 DPS. Because that is all any class or spec currently in the game but not the absolute top output does.

For example having a CD that very briefly turns all nearby overhealing into shielding, or being able to use an aura ability that gives everyone nearby very strong leech for a few moments would make that buff class very attractive for certain progression fights with high unavoidable raid damage phases. Being able to "havoc" an Ally's spells to duplicate onto a second (or say, pulse that damage in a small targeted AoE) would make them very attractive on priority add phase fights, or in M+ if by allowing you to bring a ST heavyweight spec and convert some of that raw output into AoE. Strong mana regen and healing support wouldn't get them brought to MDI, but it would absolutely make them desirable to mid-tier raid groups looking to up DPS a bit but finding that a lower number of healers just isn't cutting it.

The misconception here is that the biggest problem facing class balancing is "X class is better so I'm not taking you", when the majority of the time, the reason a thing gets benched is because that class has a spec that performs better. The competition is internal for 99% of the game, and despite how much people like to exaggerate the balance problem in terms of benching, the fact is that the worst performing classes are pretty much never the least played. People play whatever they want. Even if your support class were genuinely awful in performance and brought no value at all, if it was fun and interesting people would still play it. Look at shamans, they spent multiple expansions being undertuned, but monks and rogues were often still played less despite often being very high tuned.

[DatToffer]

No worries. I really liked the idea. I am a musician, so some of the terms threw me. For instance, Ovation and Harmonics have nothing to do with each other. Ovation is applause or people clapping for a performance. I would create an ovation spell as a finisher to build up to.

Harmonics has more to do with melody and harmony. Melodic and Harmonic go together musically. Melody is the main theme of the music, where as the Harmonies are the underlying, supporting parts. You could use that to build tiers of spells.

Oh yes, don't worry I am aware of that. Those resources have different names because they work in different ways. The Steel and Thunder specs, since they are a reference to rock concerts build up the enthusiasm of the crowd to gain power. This is the Ovation bar, because I didn't know a better word for the ecstasy of the crowd during a concert.

As for the Heal spec they have Harmonics because they try to establish Harmony in their party. It isn't a bar that fills up, it's more like the Chi tokens where you gain up to five of them and can consume them for your spells. You could say that while Ovation is gaining musical power by hyping your audience, Harmonic is using musical power to guide your party in your performance.

This is a little to metal for me acctually, lol.
I want a flute or a lute personally, and be a wonky adventurer

But a fun concept im sure many would enjoy

That's understandable. Which is why I made the Harmony specialization to have several instruments aside from the drums (flute, harp) and mentioned that, outside of combat, your musical spells can be used to make music indefinitely.

I think people underestimate utility's role. If raw performance were the only factor than no one except the top melee DPS, top ranged dPS, top healer spec and top tank spec would be taken. It varies season to season and expansion by expansion, but there are frequently classes that are brought solely because of some secondary benefit despite there being better specs for raw output.

The idea that a support class must reach some mythical, unattainable perfect balance to not be a disaster is founded on the mistaken belief that there enough of a stable balance in the default trinity that the addition of a support class would throw everything out of whack. Specs and classes are already brought or not brought based on community perceived values of their performance and utility. A support class would be exactly the same.

You don't need to make it so 2 DPS and a buff class always outperforms 3 DPS, the buff class just has to have a single thing that makes it sometimes worth taking over the 3 DPS. Because that is all any class or spec currently in the game but not the absolute top output does.

For example having a CD that very briefly turns all nearby overhealing into shielding, or being able to use an aura ability that gives everyone nearby very strong leech for a few moments would make that buff class very attractive for certain progression fights with high unavoidable raid damage phases. Being able to "havoc" an Ally's spells to duplicate onto a second (or say, pulse that damage in a small targeted AoE) would make them very attractive on priority add phase fights, or in M+ if by allowing you to bring a ST heavyweight spec and convert some of that raw output into AoE. Strong mana regen and healing support wouldn't get them brought to MDI, but it would absolutely make them desirable to mid-tier raid groups looking to up DPS a bit but finding that a lower number of healers just isn't cutting it.

The misconception here is that the biggest problem facing class balancing is "X class is better so I'm not taking you", when the majority of the time, the reason a thing gets benched is because that class has a spec that performs better. The competition is internal for 99% of the game, and despite how much people like to exaggerate the balance problem in terms of benching, the fact is that the worst performing classes are pretty much never the least played. People play whatever they want. Even if your support class were genuinely awful in performance and brought no value at all, if it was fun and interesting people would still play it. Look at shamans, they spent multiple expansions being undertuned, but monks and rogues were often still played less despite often being very high tuned.

Thank you for that input. That indeed makes me think about what could be a good support class in wow.

[Sin of Pride]

I think people underestimate utility's role. If raw performance were the only factor than no one except the top melee DPS, top ranged dPS, top healer spec and top tank spec would be taken. It varies season to season and expansion by expansion, but there are frequently classes that are brought solely because of some secondary benefit despite there being better specs for raw output.

The idea that a support class must reach some mythical, unattainable perfect balance to not be a disaster is founded on the mistaken belief that there enough of a stable balance in the default trinity that the addition of a support class would throw everything out of whack. Specs and classes are already brought or not brought based on community perceived values of their performance and utility. A support class would be exactly the same.

You don't need to make it so 2 DPS and a buff class always outperforms 3 DPS, the buff class just has to have a single thing that makes it sometimes worth taking over the 3 DPS. Because that is all any class or spec currently in the game but not the absolute top output does.

For example having a CD that very briefly turns all nearby overhealing into shielding, or being able to use an aura ability that gives everyone nearby very strong leech for a few moments would make that buff class very attractive for certain progression fights with high unavoidable raid damage phases. Being able to "havoc" an Ally's spells to duplicate onto a second (or say, pulse that damage in a small targeted AoE) would make them very attractive on priority add phase fights, or in M+ if by allowing you to bring a ST heavyweight spec and convert some of that raw output into AoE. Strong mana regen and healing support wouldn't get them brought to MDI, but it would absolutely make them desirable to mid-tier raid groups looking to up DPS a bit but finding that a lower number of healers just isn't cutting it.

The misconception here is that the biggest problem facing class balancing is "X class is better so I'm not taking you", when the majority of the time, the reason a thing gets benched is because that class has a spec that performs better. The competition is internal for 99% of the game, and despite how much people like to exaggerate the balance problem in terms of benching, the fact is that the worst performing classes are pretty much never the least played. People play whatever they want. Even if your support class were genuinely awful in performance and brought no value at all, if it was fun and interesting people would still play it. Look at shamans, they spent multiple expansions being undertuned, but monks and rogues were often still played less despite often being very high tuned.

This isn't how wow works. It would be nice if it did but it simply doesn't. Hell its hard to get people doing normal raids to take dps classes perceived as weak.

[Hitei]

This isn't how wow works. It would be nice if it did but it simply doesn't. Hell its hard to get people doing normal raids to take dps classes perceived as weak.

I've definitely played "weak" alts and rarely had any trouble getting into normal or heroic raid pugs. I've found people requiring a completely overgeared ilevel to be a much bigger barrier for alts than spec or class ever has been.

[Doombringer]

I'm not big on shoehorning bards into WoW... but I have to admit, this sounds pretty cool.

Definitely have to go the ETC / Blight Boar route, and it's SO tongue in cheek... but still.

[Sin of Pride]

I've definitely played "weak" alts and rarely had any trouble getting into normal or heroic raid pugs. I've found people requiring a completely overgeared ilevel to be a much bigger barrier for alts than spec or class ever has been.

Im just flat out telling you it would go excessively badly. There is so much evidence to back this I don't really know where to start. You have 15 years of classes being benched never mind specs to show you what a fucking awful idea this is.

[FossilFree]

I like the idea of basing bards on a metal band. Nice work!

[Hitei]

Im just flat out telling you it would go excessively badly. There is so much evidence to back this I don't really know where to start. You have 15 years of classes being benched never mind specs to show you what a fucking awful idea this is.

You aren't though, if you'd actually bothered to read what I wrote before responding, you'd see that I directly pointed out what you are saying is evidence to the contrary. Your "15 years of classes being benched never mind specs" (which by the way tiny fraction of the playerbase doing so) are already benching classes and specs with the current trinity because of minute dps differences.

Do you understand? It literally cannot go excessively badly, because the thing you are worried about going excessively badly is already happening, is the current norm and has been, as you yourself claim, going on since day 1. So a class having that issue would be exactly the same as every other class in the game, hence: potentially being stronger or weaker than a DPS means absolutely fucking nothing, because a regular DPS spec being added is also going to have that exact same problem and tOtAllY gEt BeNchEd if it is less than optimal, and be the only thing people bring if it is not.

So it's really not an argument against the implementation of a support.