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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I never said that was me personally.
    Weird, it sounded that way given the odd specificity of it. It's also totally pointless since that's an experience that a scant few might actually enjoy.

    I guess when your hypotheticals are all as rosy and positive as possible, they always look good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    And that... is a poor way to concede a discussion.
    I mean, it's just you admitting that you're fine with people being exploited and being left to suffer said exploitation because you have it pretty good.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    And that... is a poor way to concede a discussion.
    Not as poor as just ignoring evidence that's inconvenient to your argument.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  3. #163
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Just because you work somewhere 40 hours does not mean you deserve a livable wage. We can agree to disagree on that because it's very sad people believe this.
    "Very sad" that people don't want to see others suffer?

    Who knew that basic human empathy was something to mock and deride.


  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And as Endus said, this is just a poor man's version of misanthropy.
    You beat me to it. Now he's just onto that nonsense that the 40 hour work week is a "part-time gig" and people should just work harder to survive. Kind of takes away from the people are in financial straits due to their own decisions.

    Pretty good self own on his part.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Weird, it sounded that way given the odd specificity of it. It's also totally pointless since that's an experience that a scant few might actually enjoy.

    I guess when your hypotheticals are all as rosy and positive as possible, they always look good.
    Then you didn't get the point.

    People make their own choices. I live in a state where people complain often about things that are entirely their own fault. I know this cannot be exclusive to my state. It would be absurd to think so.

    I mean, it's just you admitting that you're fine with people being exploited and being left to suffer said exploitation because you have it pretty good.
    That's a position I never held. I never said how well I have it. I purposefully did that because silly people LOVE to jump on the bandwagon and insinuate that you do just because you feel that if people want livable wages, they should stop flipping burgers. I also wouldn't go as far as saying people are exploited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Very sad" that people don't want to see others suffer?

    Who knew that basic human empathy was something to mock and deride.
    People choosing to work at Burger King instead of all the other places they could work that pay a lot more is not them suffering. They made their choices. I have no empathy for people who choose to do this then pretend they're the victim.

    This isn't to say everyone does this, but I see more of this than I care to.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    You beat me to it. Now he's just onto that nonsense that the 40 hour work week is a "part-time gig" and people should just work harder to survive. Kind of takes away from the people are in financial straits due to their own decisions.

    Pretty good self own on his part.
    Still waiting on "just develop marketable skills" on my Bad Faith Fiscal Conservative Talking Points bingo card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    People choosing to work at Burger King instead of all the other places they could work
    Is a perfectly acceptable choice since it's a service that is in demand by the market and is in no way automatically justification for a lack of a living wage besides some silly personal belief that food service jobs are for teenagers or whatever.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    People make their own choices.
    Poverty isn't a choice for most folks. That anyone thinks people like, voluntarily choose to be poor is frankly, ludicrous and pretty fucked up. Yes, bad decisions can contribute, but again to that very specific point -

    Every person working a full-time, 40h a week job should be paid a livable wage. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That's a position I never held.
    It absolutely is with your statement that you're fine with people working 40 hours a week in a job and not being paid a living wage. You don't need to explicitly say, "I have no problems with exploitation.", you've already said it indirectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I purposefully did that because silly people LOVE to jump on the bandwagon and insinuate that you do just because you feel that if people want livable wages, they should stop flipping burgers.
    Then why do we hire people to flip burgers? Why don't people flipping burgers deserve a living wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I also wouldn't go as far as saying people are exploited.
    Yet you literally just supported exploiting "burger flippers" because, apparently, that's a job that you look down upon and believe anyone performing is undeserving of a living wage.

    Despite the facts that...

    1. Historically it's absolutely been a job that paid a living wage.

    2. It absolutely is a job that pays a living wage at many companies, or damned close to it. See places like In n Out, which proves that you can compensate your workers well and not exploit the fuck out of them while still running a thriving fast-food chain.

    Weird how that is.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Is a perfectly acceptable choice since it's a service that is in demand by the market and is in no way automatically justification for a lack of a living wage besides some silly personal belief that food service jobs are for teenagers or whatever.
    Someone's got jokes today.

  9. #169
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    People choosing to work at Burger King instead of all the other places they could work that pay a lot more is not them suffering. They made their choices. I have no empathy for people who choose to do this then pretend they're the victim.

    This isn't to say everyone does this, but I see more of this than I care to.
    There are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work. It's simple math. The number of open jobs is less than the number of job-seekers.

    This is why your position is misanthropic. You're blaming people for being victims of an unfair, exploitative system. You're blaming them for being offered less than a minimum living wage, and taking that offer because they don't have any other meaningful options.

    You're right in that you lack empathy, but it's worse than that. You're actively arguing for their suffering.

    Why shouldn't someone working full-time at Burger King have a modestly decent lifestyle? Really, all you're doing here is defining exactly which people you want to see suffer on your behalf. I don't know what fast food workers ever did to you to deserve that antipathy.


  10. #170
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work. It's simple math. The number of open jobs is less than the number of job-seekers.

    This is why your position is misanthropic. You're blaming people for being victims of an unfair, exploitative system. You're blaming them for being offered less than a minimum living wage, and taking that offer because they don't have any other meaningful options.

    You're right in that you lack empathy, but it's worse than that. You're actively arguing for their suffering.

    Why shouldn't someone working full-time at Burger King have a modestly decent lifestyle?
    Better question is why all these conservatives think it's a remotely wise decision to crap on the people who handle their food, lol.

    They must really like special sauce on their burgers.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Better question is why all these conservatives think it's a remotely wise decision to crap on the people who handle their food, lol.
    Lot of privileged kids that have never had to work a service sector job.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Poverty isn't a choice for most folks. That anyone thinks people like, voluntarily choose to be poor is frankly, ludicrous and pretty fucked up. Yes, bad decisions can contribute, but again to that very specific point -

    Every person working a full-time, 40h a week job should be paid a livable wage. Period.
    It may not be a choice for everyone but for most... that's debatable. And when someone implies "voluntary", it does not have to mean they're waking up saying "I'm going to choose to be poor today". Living outside your means is a choice you make. Knowing you need $1200 a month to pay your bills but go on a shopping binge beforehand and can't pay them is your own fault. Just because you have a bad habit of spending money on crap and not making sure bills are paid does not mean you deserve more money in your check to accommodate for that. That's just plain silly.

    And we can agree to disagree on who deserves to make a livable wage. I'm not for the entitlement philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It absolutely is with your statement that you're fine with people working 40 hours a week in a job and not being paid a living wage. You don't need to explicitly say, "I have no problems with exploitation.", you've already said it indirectly.
    No, I'm afraid it isn't. You personally believing that does not make is so. Just because I say "I do not like green olives" is not implicit that I like black olives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Then why do we hire people to flip burgers? Why don't people flipping burgers deserve a living wage?
    High school kids do this. Why give them more reason to drop out of school? It's bad enough that the dropout rates are going up. Start paying livable wages to all these super easy jobs and why the heck would anyone want to work a real job if you can live off doing the bare minimum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yet you literally just supported exploiting "burger flippers" because, apparently, that's a job that you look down upon and believe anyone performing is undeserving of a living wage.
    I guess we have different definitions of what "exploiting" is. I'm going with the Webster definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Lot of privileged kids that have never had to work a service sector job.
    I've worked there before. And I still do not believe they deserve it.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Lot of privileged kids that have never had to work a service sector job.
    Well yeah, that much was clear from the belief that food service or retail isn't as hard as factory work.

    Or conveniently ignoring that people who work in what effectively factories *also* quite frequently get paid shitty wages. See: Amazon. And like... the People's Republic of China.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    If you want a living wage (to some), stop working at McDonalds thinking you deserve one that people busting their behinds in factories make. It's ridiculous.
    well shit then mcdonalds and its ilk should not be allowed to have the same level of profits "factories" have!!! they are not real jobs...i mean businesses.....!!!

    BTW ever work in a factory?

    I've done both factory work and fast food and for the Pay/Benefits the factory work is soooooooooooo much easier.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  15. #175
    if the state has to go full red style, I think it's much more acceptable to have them trying to force the salaries to rise and lower working hours (ie employees getting paid more per hours) rather than going the UBI route (ie the I-do-nothing-and-someone-pays-me-for-it "solution")

    if the UBI is about paying everyone including the rich and those who don't need any UBI to survive, this is quite silly, on top of the idea of stealing money from those who actually work (since money has to come from somewhere)
    if we expect someone to work to receive an UBI, then this is not UBI, but rather a salary, which is the actual way to avoid chaos
    and if we refer to helping those who can't eat or have a home, this is social welfare, not UBI either. UBI would cost more
    Last edited by Cæli; 2021-09-23 at 07:15 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm not saying "you". Just like $20 an hour in my place of employment isn't "me".

    I read the news articles all the time. Fast food workers wanting to make what factory workers make, etc.

    We can disagree about who should make a livable wage. Next thing we know, people delivering newspapers will start demanding factory wages.
    And why shouldn't they? They work and provide a service.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    well shit then mcdonalds and its ilk should not be allowed to have the same level of profits "factories" have!!! they are not real jobs...i mean businesses.....!!!

    BTW ever work in a factory?

    I've done both factory work and fast food and for the Pay/Benefits the factory work is soooooooooooo much easier.
    Yes, I have worked in fast food and I've worked in 4 different factories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    And why shouldn't they? They work and provide a service.
    We can go far down this rabbit hole.

    In my area, there are fast food places that are now asking for tips. There are plenty who go back/forth on how you define "being served" for deserving a tip. There is a lot of reaching involved.

    In addition, people in fast food wanting high salaries are the reason why so many negative things are happening in the industry. My wife and I stop at a fast food place now at lunch, order 2 value meals and it's $21 when it was half that not long ago. Fast food places are combating this as well by implementing things like these large touch-screens where you can order our own stuff and it's presented to you. No longer having to pay someone at the counter. There are some who are experimenting with robot cooks so they don't have to pay all these wages.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2021-09-23 at 07:16 PM.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    if the state has to go full red style, I think it's much more acceptable to have them trying to force the salaries to rise and lower working hours (ie employees getting paid more per hours) rather than going the UBI route (ie the I-do-nothing-and-someone-pays-me-for-it "solution")
    Okay, and what's your solution for people not able to find employment since there will never be sufficient openings to meet demand in a capitalist economy?

    if the UBI is about paying everyone including the rich
    Cool, may I interest you in negative income tax then?

    on top of the idea of stealing money from those who actually work (since money has to come from somewhere)
    No.

    The money isn't being "stolen", it was acquired legitimately through taxation at which point it becomes public money.

    if we expect someone to work to receive an UBI, then this is not UBI, but rather a salary, which is the actual way to avoid chaos
    Despite there being no evidence that UBI or similar schemes "cause chaos" or even appreciable increases in unemployment.

    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Knowing you need $1200 a month to pay your bills but go on a shopping binge beforehand and can't pay them is your own fault.
    Sure, some folks may fall under this category. But this reads a lot like the vague complaints of Welfare Queens under Reagan, you know the ones that never really existed.

    For most folks, they're already poor and options are limited so maybe that "shopping binge" was restocking on necessary supplies and buying food. I mean, you think folks born into poverty in Appalachia where their options for upward mobility are extremely limited are just like, happily choosing to stay there because they can't afford to move elsewhere or get training that may help them get a job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm not for the entitlement philosophy.
    Being able to afford a place to live, basic necessities (like a stove and fridge and internet connection which, yes, is a necessity in the modern world just like a telephone or electricity is), and pay for food/medical bills isn't entitlement. That's just living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    High school kids do this.
    40 hours a week? Maybe during the summer.

    But why should highschool kids be exploited and not paid a living wage if they too are working full time? Highschool kids are hardly the only folks flipping burgers as well.

    This is just you being cool with companies exploiting literal minors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Why give them more reason to drop out of school?
    ...what? Literally where the fuck did this even come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Start paying livable wages to all these super easy jobs and why the heck would anyone want to work a real job if you can live off doing the bare minimum?
    Ah yes, those teens with their dreams of...working fast food all their lives and having basic necessities while being unable to afford to do things they may want to do like travel or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I guess we have different definitions of what "exploiting" is. I'm going with the Webster definition.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit

    : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
    This definition? Where you're arguing that multi-billion dollar, international fast-food companies can't afford to pay a living wage and are unfairly exploiting, in your own words, literal minors (i.e. not adults)?

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    You beat me to it. Now he's just onto that nonsense that the 40 hour work week is a "part-time gig" and people should just work harder to survive. Kind of takes away from the people are in financial straits due to their own decisions.

    Pretty good self own on his part.
    it's the same nonsense argument of saying fast food work is only for teenagers. as if any fast food restaurant only operates outside of school hours...

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