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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    We see lots of improvements, arriving at 9.1.5 PTR. Yeah, 9.1.5 is hit or miss for Blizzard. It's critical patch to save Wow and not let it collapse. Problem, I currently see - is that all improvements are popular demands from hardcore guys like streamers, not actual players, like if Blizzard would value feedback from their streamers more, than players' feedback. Yeah, we have skipping lots of content, covenants swapping, conduits swapping, sending exceeding anima to alts, some improvements for Torghast, even Mage Tower. Don't you think, that this improvements are good for min-maxers only, who are hardcore players by definition? For players, who do raids, M+, get enough Anima as side product from "just doing content"? But just answer simple question. Do they give any goal to play game for casual players? What content casual players are expected to do? Leveling? Korthia? Maw? WQs? Do we have any improvements for this content? I don't see any. Is this content considered to be "perfect", that it doesn't need improvements?

    Overall casual goals from old xpacks:
    WotLK: Perform badge runs and pug raids
    Cata: Same, but overtuned content ruined this goal, may be LFR sets in 4.3
    MOP: Almost nothing, if you hate mandatory rep grinds and claustrophobic "sandbox" isles
    WOD: Garrison, Shipyard and Baleful gear, leveling itself was also great
    Legion: Class Hall, Class Hall set tranmog, Class Hall mount, artifacts, legendaries
    BFA: Almost nothing, except may be invasion transmogs, corrupted items were interesting, but leveling Cloak via visions was bad, 8.3 locations were badly designed too
    SL: Should have been Covenant sets and mounts, basic ones are easy to get, but leveling is too boring and tedious - others require Anima/Souls/Gifts grinds, that are way too bad for casual player. They mean explicit Anima grinding from WQs. Korthia improves situation a little bit, but it's still Maw 2.0. I don't play content without flying. Principally. And I don't see, why flying can't be implemented in Korthia.

    I returned home after summer vocation and decided to give SL content another chance. I'm trying to do this content now and it's terrible. I don't think, that 9.1.5 will make me play SL, if there won't be any improvements for it.

    What do you think? Is it real situation, that casual content doesn't need any improvements in 9.1.5? If so, then, I guess, Wow is lost for me. May be forever.

    All the changes right now are basically for casually. Hardcore players don't care about them at all.
    The question is: What would you consider a change that would improve casual gameplay?

  2. #142
    Bloodsail Admiral froschhure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post

    BFA: Almost nothing, except may be invasion transmogs, corrupted items were interesting, but leveling Cloak via visions was bad, 8.3 locations were badly designed.
    Bfa was the casual friendliest expansion ever created. As single player you could easily reach max ilvl and decent essences. You thought of corrupted items as interesting, which literally were pay 2 win with the release. What is interesting from a casual point of view here? You can buy gear and feel good or what??
    love WoWarcraft

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    We see lots of improvements, arriving at 9.1.5 PTR. Yeah, 9.1.5 is hit or miss for Blizzard. It's critical patch to save Wow and not let it collapse. Problem, I currently see - is that all improvements are popular demands from hardcore guys like streamers, not actual players, like if Blizzard would value feedback from their streamers more, than players' feedback. Yeah, we have skipping lots of content, covenants swapping, conduits swapping, sending exceeding anima to alts, some improvements for Torghast, even Mage Tower. Don't you think, that this improvements are good for min-maxers only, who are hardcore players by definition? For players, who do raids, M+, get enough Anima as side product from "just doing content"? But just answer simple question. Do they give any goal to play game for casual players? What content casual players are expected to do? Leveling? Korthia? Maw? WQs? Do we have any improvements for this content? I don't see any. Is this content considered to be "perfect", that it doesn't need improvements?

    Overall casual goals from old xpacks:
    WotLK: Perform badge runs and pug raids
    Cata: Same, but overtuned content ruined this goal, may be LFR sets in 4.3
    MOP: Almost nothing, if you hate mandatory rep grinds and claustrophobic "sandbox" isles
    WOD: Garrison, Shipyard and Baleful gear, leveling itself was also great
    Legion: Class Hall, Class Hall set tranmog, Class Hall mount, artifacts, legendaries
    BFA: Almost nothing, except may be invasion transmogs, corrupted items were interesting, but leveling Cloak via visions was bad, 8.3 locations were badly designed too
    SL: Should have been Covenant sets and mounts, basic ones are easy to get, but leveling is too boring and tedious - others require Anima/Souls/Gifts grinds, that are way too bad for casual player. They mean explicit Anima grinding from WQs. Korthia improves situation a little bit, but it's still Maw 2.0. I don't play content without flying. Principally. And I don't see, why flying can't be implemented in Korthia.

    I returned home after summer vocation and decided to give SL content another chance. I'm trying to do this content now and it's terrible. I don't think, that 9.1.5 will make me play SL, if there won't be any improvements for it.

    What do you think? Is it real situation, that casual content doesn't need any improvements in 9.1.5? If so, then, I guess, Wow is lost for me. May be forever.
    >What content casual players are expected to do?
    The harder content. You are expected to become better. You are expected to not be a casual.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Chriisto View Post
    Here's the problem. I don't like telling people how to enjoy the game but... if you don't raid, PvP or run M+ then you are probably playing the wrong game.
    Ok, to be fair: That also is the wrong attitude. Sure, you might be right, currently WoW does not offer anything outside those big 3, but there is no reason why this could not change.

    Additionally there is nothing wrong with people who are only here to RP, in fact, there are whole servers dedicated for them and yes, there is RP outside of Goldshire ;-)

    Besides that, we have a lot of things that are either completely underused (all professions for the last 6-8 years for example, it's completely insane how bad crafting is in WoW) or not tried/utilized at all (player housing, guild activities, dynamic world zones etc.)

    There are a lot of feature that could be implemented and improved that would deliver tons of content outside of raids, PVP or M+ that could cater all sorts of player types at the same time, they are just not doing it, because it easier to just milk the cow. Well, that time is over now.

  5. #145
    Post reaching 8 pages of the same thing.

    Its been said multiple times on this forum before, the answer is that you are playing the wrong game and the same people always think they counter argue with "Dont tell me how to play the game, i pay my money i do what i want".

    Realize you are playing the game for the wrong reasons, and simply when your single player or "casual" as you like to call it, content is done for, launch another game, do the same thing there, rotate these games and voila, you are happy, doing "casual" content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    There are a lot of feature that could be implemented and improved that would deliver tons of content outside of raids, PVP or M+ that could cater all sorts of player types at the same time, they are just not doing it, because it easier to just milk the cow. Well, that time is over now.
    Name one that can deliver non-irrelevant crap content that are only good for 1 time, for 2-5 hours depending how bad you are, than both the low skilled players and the better players can both achieve without an endless shitstorm.

  6. #146

    Are you for real?

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    We see lots of improvements, arriving at 9.1.5 PTR. Yeah, 9.1.5 is hit or miss for Blizzard. It's critical patch to save Wow and not let it collapse. Problem, I currently see - is that all improvements are popular demands from hardcore guys like streamers, not actual players, like if Blizzard would value feedback from their streamers more, than players' feedback. Yeah, we have skipping lots of content, covenants swapping, conduits swapping, sending exceeding anima to alts, some improvements for Torghast, even Mage Tower. Don't you think, that this improvements are good for min-maxers only, who are hardcore players by definition? For players, who do raids, M+, get enough Anima as side product from "just doing content"? But just answer simple question. Do they give any goal to play game for casual players? What content casual players are expected to do? Leveling? Korthia? Maw? WQs? Do we have any improvements for this content? I don't see any. Is this content considered to be "perfect", that it doesn't need improvements?

    Overall casual goals from old xpacks:
    WotLK: Perform badge runs and pug raids
    Cata: Same, but overtuned content ruined this goal, may be LFR sets in 4.3
    MOP: Almost nothing, if you hate mandatory rep grinds and claustrophobic "sandbox" isles
    WOD: Garrison, Shipyard and Baleful gear, leveling itself was also great
    Legion: Class Hall, Class Hall set tranmog, Class Hall mount, artifacts, legendaries
    BFA: Almost nothing, except may be invasion transmogs, corrupted items were interesting, but leveling Cloak via visions was bad, 8.3 locations were badly designed too
    SL: Should have been Covenant sets and mounts, basic ones are easy to get, but leveling is too boring and tedious - others require Anima/Souls/Gifts grinds, that are way too bad for casual player. They mean explicit Anima grinding from WQs. Korthia improves situation a little bit, but it's still Maw 2.0. I don't play content without flying. Principally. And I don't see, why flying can't be implemented in Korthia.

    I returned home after summer vocation and decided to give SL content another chance. I'm trying to do this content now and it's terrible. I don't think, that 9.1.5 will make me play SL, if there won't be any improvements for it.

    What do you think? Is it real situation, that casual content doesn't need any improvements in 9.1.5? If so, then, I guess, Wow is lost for me. May be forever.

    Dude you are not a casual if you can shitpost all day on mmoc.

  7. #147
    I was hoping they'd add a MoP timewalking raid but maybe later.

  8. #148
    Its a bit of a tangent, but i kinda wanna talk about what the 'casual audience' were through the history of the game. It might help situate some of the 'talking past one another' that these threads often end up devolving into.

    I may have to break it into chunks (though i have to skip cata since i leveled a panda to 80 at the very start of the expansion, quit and didnt return again until 5.2 (and missed the 5.0 daily quest drama).

    To add a disclaimer, my experience goes from a typical, average wow player in vanilla and TBC, to a casual from wotlk to an ultra casual from legion onward. Ive never been a 'hardcore player'. Second disclaimer, im just providing anecdotal info which im assuming to be typical, but mileage may vary.

    So lets start with vanilla since its pretty easy to grasp. The hardcore were the folks running MC/ony, then bwl, then AQ40, then naxx. They made up a chunky fraction, but comparatively you'd put them up with your mythic CE raiders, your KSMs and your 2100+ arena players. At a push, lets just say about the top 10% of players. Here's why vanilla is an interesting starting point: Because then you have your typical wow players.

    What did they do? Pushed for pvp ranks, ran all the end game dungeons for their dungeon set zero, did MC/ony, zg20, aq20, bwl later on and maybe dipped their toes into a boss here and there in aq40 and naxx. Almost EVERYONE did some, if not almost all of that content (with perhaps the exception of naxx/aq40). Why did they do all that? Two or three big reasons i can think of: 1. The incredibly low barrier of access to 40 man content. 2. The absolute proliferation of guilds. Guilds were the absolute norm because it was the obvious way you needed to play the game. So far so uncontroversial, i hope. Almost everyone was in a guild and almost everyone was running content with their guildies: Be that raiding on a sunday evening, or clearing out that stupid dungeon in the badlands (ulduman? uldum? I always get those uls mixed up) because your hunter guildy really wanted the pole arm that NEVER EVER dropped. Whatever it was, its just how you played the game. 3. Poaching wars. Tank or heals got poached, new invitee, back to farm runs for those guilds lower on the pecking order. It offered a constant conveyor belt of new talent into the raiding scene.

    Either by design or by happy accident, this created a nice transitional fluid system where players would get carried and geared out, learn fights in a semi-non-judgemental environment, and in turn either end up skilled enough to attract the attention of guilds higher up on the pecking system and move up the channel. Or, just get stuck reclearing mc to eternity and hoping for an upgrade every few clears.

    Now of course, ive kinda centered on raiding here, so to pull back a bit... dungeon set zero. It was always iconic. Everyone in the normal playerbase knew this was the cornerstone of stepping forward. We all farmed it. Strat, scholo, lbrs, ubrs, brm. This is the lions share of ordinary content in the game. This is where most of the playerbase existed (if they werent trapped in AV). This is how everyone just understood and played the game. I forgot to mention something, im sure its not important, but wipes were expected, you werent supposed to just pick up 90 mobs and aoe zerg them down (thats wrath), threat existed, aoe tanking didnt exist. Screw ups were expected and tolerated.

    So lets quickly put a figure on this: What would we say the proportion of that playerbase is? Thats basically everyone running dungeons or farming honor for rank (not for hwl, but just for rank and new gear options) through to the people not quite in the top 10%. Id put that around 60% of players. Its literally what wow was.

    Now lets get rid of about another 10% of players who really dont fit into any category but their own: RPers. They can be hardcore as anyone or casual as anyone. But their goal isnt to beat the game, but to create experiences through the universe of the game. If that means they need their tier 2, theyll get it. If that means dragging my alliance priest all the way across horde territory at level 20 to kneel and pray at Lordaeron and make me listen to warcraft 3 whispers (i never played warcraft 3), then by heavens, thats what they're gonna do. Heck, if their entire reason for existing is to storm the alliance capitals (losbanditoslocos) to kill all the faction leaders, theyre going to do that! The point is the role playing. Not the gear in itself. The gear is there just to enhance the story of their character.
    I hope thats right. I think they deserve a unique catagory though because they dont really fit into the model very well.

    So that leaves the dedicated casuals of vanilla. I dont include people who tried the game and quit. I mean the players who just dont play the game for the same reason almost everyone does. They arent chasing the loot, they arent chasing the lore. They just like logging in, doing a bit of stuff, chilling out, maybe having some random chats and encounters. They play the game because they like the atmosphere and environment (or they like questing, leveling alts, and just being a part of a nice world). Sure, they'll maybe do the occasional run of LBRS or BRM, but its just because its fun. This is where id put modern wows ultra casuals. And a solid 10-20% of players.

    Is this a reasonable breakdown of the types of players and their motivations? If it isnt, please feel free to offer an alternative. But im setting the stage and i dont want to seem too off base.

  9. #149
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post

    And therefore, yeah. Casual content "route" - is my biggest problem now. What goal should I have in mind, when I create new alt to level? That I'll level him to 60, skip everything, may be get basic Covenant rewards for doing campaign for 2 days. And what's next? That's it? Just a few days of endgame playing and I need to level new character? You know. When leveling and endgame aren't balanced - you usually start to get sick of leveling pretty fast.
    Raiding, M+, PvP.

    Your problem is you play the wrong game, tbh.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    And for guys, that suggest some casual content like collecting something. You're partially right. I don't collect pets, but mounts and transmogs are my major goal, as they're only account wide-rewards in this game. But problem is - I don't collect just for the sake of collecting, because, you know, I can't put all that hats on me anyway. I collect only things, I actually like, and I've collected almost all of them. For example I have just 2 mounts, that would be interesting for me. But they're already way too hard to obtain for casual player. One of them is Time Lost. I tried to get it, but I can't camp it 24/7 and somebody else does it. And transmogs are mostly about "I want to have current xpack themed look" now, i.e. about getting current transmogs.


    hey bad world of warcraft player just saying, pets are account wide too, why would you even type that?

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Is this a reasonable breakdown of the types of players and their motivations? If it isnt, please feel free to offer an alternative. But im setting the stage and i dont want to seem too off base.
    Casuals and RPers are far, far bigger than you give them credit for.

    It cannot be overstated just how many people wound up playing WoW because it was the next chapter in the Warcraft story. WC3 introduced all of these characters and set up all of these conflicts that people wanted to find out what happened next. One of the final WC3 missions ends with a very direct lead in to WoW. Don't let people tell you "nobody plays WoW for the story" because they absolutely do and there are a ton of them. You're just not looking in the right places. Now, there is an argument to be made about how well early WoW was at storytelling, but that's a different topic.

    I played on Moon Guard, which was far and away the largest RP server on NA. Even during the 14 month long SoO content drought, we had huge server organized events going on multiple times a week with hundreds - sometimes thousands - of players showing up. Horde has less players than Alliance but you would still get insane turnouts. You could be running around Stonetalon Mountains or the Barrens or Hillsbrad Foothills and easily stumble upon this mass gathering of players, or find a train of players trickling towards some event. People would buy the books and read the short stories to find out what happened next. Most RPers are a type of casual where they don't really raid. If they do raid it's only to see the story for the first time, or to complete a quest, or to farm a transmog, and then they never do it again. Now, this isn't to say that story players don't PvP or raid; they do like variety but it's not what they focus on. Story players don't really care about their gearscore or their ilevel or their boss progression. They're not really into the gameplay of WoW. They're here for the story and the immersion. The different things to do like arenas or pet battles is a bonus. While "for the gameplay" kind of players were whining about there being too many different reputations during MoP, story players were gobbling all of those reputation storylines up and injecting it into their brains. They couldn't progress fast enough to finish the storylines.

    Story players currently make up the biggest chunk of WoW's playerbase. They're the people who stayed after social players you described began leaving when the anti-social casualization of WoW began in Wrath. Notice how starting with WoD, you see the game have huge swings in player counts, with a huge influx of players during the first couple months of an expansion, and then a massive drop until the next expansion is coming out. That huge influx of players at the start are the story players. They come to do the questlines and the content, and once they've done everything they don't stick around for the grinds. They're not interested in grinds. Each expansion has had less and less content than the last, so the dropoff in players happens faster. The story players also feel that the story of WoW has become less and less interesting over time (mainly happens around WoD, which many consider to be a jumping the shark point). This is what Orgrimmar on Moon Guard looked like around Shadowland's launch:



    For context: during the 14 month long SoO content drought, this plaza was filled with hundreds and hundreds of people, dozens and dozens of whom were RPing. And there would be even more inside the inn and inside Grommash Hold and inside the other valleys, or ontop of random cliffs. And even more RPers outside of Orgrimmar, out in the world and in the other cities. And RP in Ally cities was way bigger. /trade chat was zooming by with lots of people advertising RP guilds or assembling RP events or advertising upcoming RP events, or people discussing the story. There were people recruiting for raid guilds or recruiting for RBGs, but their posts were very quickly buried. Now you can't even find RPers in taverns on Horde. You have to go to Stormwind, and even that most people who were once in front of the Cathedral or inside the taverns are gone. /trade chat is totally dead; maybe once in a while there is a guy futilely trying to fill a DPS spot in his mythic guild, or someone begging for a crafter to make him some transmog shoulders.

    The game has been slowly filtering story players out for many, many years now. Too little content and the writing quality is too low. Almost all of the plotlines and characters people were interested in have been thrown away. It's hard to get invested in your faction when you know that Mag'har will never really be touched upon again. There used to be tons of RP events set in Gilneas but now it's clear that storyline will never ever progress, let alone have a satisfactory conclusion. People are no longer invested in the story. Notice how Shadowlands barely had a blip in players. Most story players didn't come back. We're now entering a late third stage where the social players of Vanilla-Wrath are gone, the story players are almost all gone, and now all you're left with are the extreme hardcore raiders and PvPers.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-09-10 at 10:27 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    So, overall my problem is - if I don't like raids, M+, PVP and "sandbox" content (that has nothing to do with real sandbox content, because vague objectives don't make content sandbox one - freedom to choose approach to doing content does), then leveling alts and doing WQs is my only option and WQs are way too unrewarding to be worth doing. And old xpacks provided much better content, such as Garrisons, 6.2 Appexis gear, Class Halls and their corresponding rewards (except Suramar, that had nothing to do with Class Halls, but was required "just because"), etc. I have one week of sub left. I'll try to force myself to love Korthia. But if I won't succeed - then that's it. Waiting for 9.2 for may be better content, i.e. not another Maw 3.0. Or for 10.0. But if we don't have any casual content improvements now, then I'm pretty sure we won't have them then. That's it. Nothing more to discuss.
    I completely agree with you, i am/was in the same boat.
    Sadly the only solution is to quit, i hope enough casuals do that. Blizzard made it very clear this Expansion that they don't cater to casuals anymore, well then let them have their cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    A trend i have noticed and said before, many of the newer generation of MMO gamers are players that started with something like Skyrim, empty irrelevant "open-world" and Single player Questlines, which because of a combination of low skill and young age it lasted more than it should.
    Nah, you are wrong. I'm in the same boat as the OP and i started with DAOC back in 2001. We were always there and(especially in WoW), there always was enough content to keep us occupied. That changed. Thats why many people play FF14 or ESO now.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowdps1 View Post
    exaggerating again, no one thinks you are casual if you dont do WF mythic raiding, you saying that make you sound dumb and silly
    Yes they do. We have enough "I'm doing 20+ keys and raid mythic but i'm casual because i only play x hours" people in this forum. It's an easy way to "win" the argument in their minds.

  13. #153
    TBC:

    Essentially more of the same. I dont really think the core experience changed too dramatically. But we do have some interesting changes that begin the process of demarcation further down the line.

    Maybe i should list them (as i say, i dont think it really flipped much, it just started a bit of delineation).
    1. The end of threat. Tanks got a huge threat boost. I remember thinking i was super smart grabbing that trinket from the downed airship with threat reduction on my rogue. It was a waste. No more waiting for 3 sunders before your opener. Go ham from the off.
    2. The first AOE tank (prot pallies). If you had a prot pally as your tanks, the pulls were bigger, the clears were faster. Couple that to a chain healing resto shammy and we have the seed of an idea that literally came to define wotlk dungeon running.
    3. Heroic dungeon running. At the time, an incredible addition. But this is where you see one of the two big fracture points in the typical wow player from vanilla. What once was an amorphous blob, started to become more defined.
    4. Kara (plus badges later on).

    The CE are still the CE, and the hardcore pvpers now have arena to really prove their skill. Honestly, i'd never really deviate from that 10% marker. The top ten percent of players are the genuine hardcore of the game. This does change in wod (for reasons im happy to elaborate on, but really, the top 10% will always be hardcore players, even if the term 'hardcore' begins to widen (hypothesis!).

    Guilds are pretty much the same, though its 2007 now and theres gonna be more guilds with their own website recruiting outside of game and the forums (man, i forgot about realm forums as a guild finding tool). When did crz/battlegroups come? It was about now, right? I think it was the prepatch to tbc when i first zoned into an AV and recognised almost no one? or was that the wotlk prepatch? Its all a blur....). Still, you could find a guild.

    5. 25 man raiding/10 man raiding. I guess thats actually a huge deal. I completely forgot about it. But lets go back to the disadvantages of 25man from the aspiring raider's perspective: More competition for spots. More expectations on performance. A lower threshold of tolerance. A greater focus on 'trials'. Im not saying this is bad, to be clear, just pointing out logical consequences. If you have more people fighting for fewer spots in established progression guilds, the demand for proven competency increases. Again, the ramifications for this likely hit in wrath.

    But lets again pull back a bit and try and take in the bigger picture. Where before there was a system of fluid transition between the softcore and hardcore game, we now have three distinct (and mandatory) steps. Keying.

    ---->And the tank wall.

    I'll try to be brief, because its literally a case study in unintended consequences (and again, led to huge changes in wrath onwards).
    Each dungeon had a rep attached to it. Once you completed (iirc, heroic) rep (about 6 or so clears), you were given a key. This allowed you to unlock the heroic dungeon version of this. Once you had cleared all heroics, you were eligible to run kara (i think that was it...again, i dont play classic so im probably mis-remembering).

    Now... if you are a tank (a shitty job at the time making general farming and world content grinding/pvp miserable), you'd log in and have 50 groups whispering you to please join their slabs run. This made your keying process incredibly fast. If you were a dps though, you'd be one of 50 groups trying to get one run down. Anecdotally, my rogue's level 70 gameplay consisted of spamming trade chat for hours, have a party of 3 dps (and maybe a healer now and again), and very occasionally (once in a while) find a tank before i had to log off. Its literally the reason i leveled a resto shammy (well, that and the fact that chain heal was obviously broken).

    Using simple logic: If it starts at a 1:1:3 ratio, for every tank that keys, and 3 dps that dont, that means now a 1:1:4 ratio, then 1:1:6, then on and on. And since tanks just werent that satisfying to level (unless you were a hardcore dungeon grinder which isnt really your average playerbase, especially new players just wanting to play the game), there was a constant dearth of tanks. And this is just to get past the first hurdle. Because it literally repeats itself in heroics. The progression path for tanks was simply faster than healers. And the progression path for healers was significantly faster than dps. The result was more players stuck behind artificial barriers waiting for their chance to move into the content they wanted to play.

    So this is why i suggest things began to become more delineated and stratified. You had your normal dungeon runners just looking for a group (and trying to grind that rep). You had your heroic dungeon runners who broke through the block in normals. And you had those players chilling in kara (and eventually given tokens to redeem on awesome - if you hadnt touched ssc - gear). You had three downward forces: 1. The pace of progression from dungeons to raids. and 2. Valor (or whatever it was called then), keeping those players satiated and happy in kara. 3. Higher competition and expectations in 'real' raiding guilds (clearing SSC, Hyjal, BT, SW). If we exclude kara (and we really should, its basically just a more grand and expansive UBRS), we're seeing a clear demarcation between raiding proper and dungeon running.

    So thats maybe the takeaway feature of TBC. We're seeing more overall downward pressure and barriers of entry. They arent remotely insurmountable at this stage (or likely at any stage), but they are starting to form. We're also seeing a breakup of the middle group with a new style of player: the heroic dungeon runner. (or should that be - the 'normal' dungeon runner, since really heroic dungeons are your vanilla end game dungeons if we lay them out in a side by side line?). The upshot is more delineation, and more people drifting (happily) below the line of your average wow player in vanilla.

    Again, its all a thesis im pulling out my butt as i type this. Its just food for thought.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-10 at 10:37 AM.

  14. #154
    @ippollite dude you just forgot the huge chunk of players that just did this: level.

    I wouldn't even be surprised if half of all players during classic-wotlk did just that and never really bothered with endgame anything tbh.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Nah, you are wrong. I'm in the same boat as the OP and i started with DAOC back in 2001. We were always there and(especially in WoW), there always was enough content to keep us occupied. That changed. Thats why many people play FF14 or ESO now.
    The OP has shown multiple times he has no idea what he is talking about and literally says he doesnt even do the "casual" content, so not even sure if you wanna claim you are the same as the OP.

    Secondary, its a waste of time to type paragraphs on this place anymore because no one cares to discuss things, you just want to maintain the echochamber that "WoW Bad".

    So yes, i know i am not wrong, no i wont waste my time for the 1000th time as to why.

    WoW never had "casual content" you are just

    1)Either really bad at the game and something that only takes a few hours takes you much longer.
    2)You are an actual casual that those few hours are spread over months.
    3)You actually arent 1/2 and improved over time so the gameplay that requires 20 hours, you actually do it in 20 hours instead of being 1, and taking 60 hours.

  16. #156
    As always, my 5 deaths in a row in Korthia suggest, that I most likely won't love it.

    Two major problems here:
    1) Nazjatar syndrome. Overtuned content. And you should know, that I hate overtuned content. Because I just can't call it "chilling" or "relaxing". I just hate, when I have to constantly spend my class resource on self-healing, instead of using it on DPS. It feels bad. This is double gimping. I'm already weak and devs force me to waste 1/3 of my DPS on self-healing, instead killing mob ASAP. Content is overtuned for players, who try to jump to there right from leveling. And I'm not even naked. I've completed whole campaign and have 5-6/7 Covenant sets now. I just tried to get that better Anima rewards in order to try to skip WQ grind part. But I couldn't. And now I'll have to do it instead of just doing this damn Korthia. Things like "try to get RNG 200 upgrades" don't suit me, as any other "crutch" solutions. I hate clunky gameplay, where I need to do some strange things to overcome broken design instead of just playing the game.
    2) No flying. Unfortunately I just can't play this game without flying any longer. It's 100% requirement for me. And that "no flying" comes from weird misconception, that all players want world to be "dangerous". I.e. some constant risk, adrenaline, etc. I'm not one of such players. And therefore I just hate, when I pull two mobs, I barely can kill, and all of a sudden third one respawns and kills me. And I also hate, when I'm asked to kill 15 mobs and 3 bosses, I barely can kill them, but I obviously need to kill much more than 15 in order just to move between this 3 bosses. Or when I've already got sick of killing this mobs, but I see just wall of them between me and next quest mob, so my next step would most likely be pull 3-4 of them and die again. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! This makes me mad. I can't bear it. That's whole intention behind removing flying. To force player to do more, than he should. Overall I prefer my own approach to doing content. I prefer to do the hardest thing first. I don't feel comfortable, when I can't do it. It's my choice to play this way. But Blizzard put me on a rail and force my to play THEIR way.

    Overall this content just isn't enjoyable. And therefore I don't see, why I should force myself to do it. I'm not masochist to get pleasure from suffering.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  17. #157
    Like 9 out of 10 content in 9.1.5 affect casuals. No idea what OP is saying.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I don't play content without flying.
    So YOU are CHOOSING not to engage in content. There's a world of difference between "there is no content" and "I choose not to do content". If you don't want to do it, that's your CHOICE. But do not make broad claims based on your personal preference.

    Principally. And I don't see, why flying can't be implemented in Korthia.
    Because it is in the literal Hell of Warcraft. So no, they are not going to implement flying. Just about every expansion has had a zone where flying was not implemented since Cata.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    As always, my 5 deaths in a row in Korthia suggest, that I most likely won't love it.
    I did the dailies and weeklies on my 153 item level mage last week in Korthia, obviously took 1hr+ over my Warrior Tank that finishes them in 10mins by cleaving down 20 mobs at a time and i died 3 times, but i didnt complain.

    Everything you keep posting only shows you are either

    a)Trolling

    B)Really bad at the game and therefor the reason people like me dont take mmo-champion seriously.

    You dont care to improve, instead complain about non-existent problems.

    The game is simply not for you, its out of your skill set, end of story.

  20. #160
    There is plenty of content in WoW for casual players - that is for players that don't play regularly.
    The game has become more and more casual friendly with time. Mythic+ is a prime example of that. I have friends that used to raid, but now they go online once or twice per week at random times and kick ass. And they are happy, casual players.

    But I strongly suspect that the OP equals bad player with casual player. Whether the OP equals casuals with wilfully bad (those that refuse to try and better themselves). or unwilfully bad should be pretty obvious from his writings....

    But even then I don't agree with the OP. There has never been so much content for bad players as there is now:
    LFR
    Normal dungeons
    Pet battles
    Collecting transmog
    Building your covenant buildings. And with 9.1.5 you can build all 4 with just one toon
    Plenty of world content.
    Elaborate expansion and patch quest lines.

    Compare all of the above with Vanilla and TBC.
    WoW is a true paradise for bad gamers compared to then.

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