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  1. #61
    NO, I prefer TBC over classic. Now if it was TBC+ I would be game.
    I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I don't have to. You already admit that I was right.
    Since I haven't actually done that... Okay... Sure.

    There is nothing to be gained from this conversation. There's nothing to be gained from any conversation on MMO-Champion. What, exactly, are you trying with this other than deflecting that you do, in fact, have no answer to the questions I've asked - Which are VITALLY important in understanding what "in the spirit of Classic" means?
    Because this question is utterly meaningless to the conversation at hand since it's already been answered many posts ago.

    I understand exactly what it is you want. You want your perfectly envisioned World of Warcraft, built all over again from the ground up, magically following the perfect story that would make you giddy like a teenager again - What you call "In the spirit of Classic." Somehow, despite every directional arrow pointing away from that being a possibility, that's what you want, insist, DEMAND we discuss in this topic, and not how fucking silly it is to ask for that. Not how many different versions of that exist in the multitude of people asking for it. Not that every person would envision Classic+ as a different thing. Not how "in the spirit of Classic" is such a loosely defined thing that even ATTEMPTING to build any content around it would be a time bomb in every player waiting to go off once they decided it "wasn't Classic" enough. Not that the story building team that would do it would be the exact same story building team that "ruined" Retail, in your eyes, and how likely it would be that they simply ruin it again for you.
    And, once again, you really prove that you haven't the foggiest fucking idea of what's actually being discussed, you simply assume something and roll with it despite people saying "No, that's not actually what we're talking about". Again and again, you assume you know better. Which is why this conversation is so utterly pointless. You simply continue with your intellectual dishonesty about the topic, continue to put words in people's mouths, and continue to pretend to be the smartest guy in the room.

    Everything has been explained to you, yet you ignore what's being said and continue to insist that people are asking for things they aren't and have crafted this weird narrative of people 'demanding' things.

    Yes, seeing as how you DON'T want to discuss any of that, I can see why this conversation seems pointless to you. What, exactly, do you want to discuss? I'm all ears, since I have no fucking idea what your ideal version of Classic is and how you specifically would want Classic+ to exist.
    If you would like to have an honest discussion I would be more than happy to talk about what Classic + could entail. How it could be built, the structure of distribution, what sort of lifecycle it could have. But I have no interest in having a discussion if you are going to continually try and tell me I've said things I never did, not actually listen to what you're being told, or just in general be a giant dick about it.

    I refuse. I will point out how silly your ask is and I will not stop until you stop asking for Classic+, or answer my questions. Because if you can't answer my questions, you have no business telling me I'm putting words in your mouth. I mean - You have no business doing that regardless. I've literally pointed out EXACTLY where and when you said what you said and why. You have repeatedly refused to respond when I directly ask you for answers.
    List out your questions then and I will fucking answer them, because at this point I have zero idea what questions you are talking about.

    I mean hell, you literally DIRECTLY misunderstood part of my post not more than a post ago. You straight up ignored a post of mine two pages ago. You then apparently tried - and failed - to find any posts from me when one exists only a PAGE BEFORE, IN RESPONSE TO YOU. You're not providing any revelations here that you're confused. But the fact is: You need a reality check. What you ask for is absolutely insane.
    Maybe, just maybe, that's also on you for not being clear about what you were saying? And I don't remember missing a post of yours, but even if I did, I am not under any obligation to respond to every single thing you post. Sorry dude, I will reply to something I feel like replying to and not stuff I don't.

    Please explain *why* what is being asked for is 'insane'.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Please explain *why* what is being asked for is 'insane'.
    To quote:

    Everything has been explained to you, yet you ignore what's being said
    Why should I try, yet again, to tell you why it is absolutely fucking nuts for Blizzard to follow one person's idea of what is good for the game? You've made it clear you've dug your head ENTIRELY in the sand. As far as you're concerned, they should just charge ahead and have no questions whatsoever about what "in the spirit of Classic" means - After all, YOU know, and that means Blizzard should just follow your lead, right? The potentially millions of people who disagree with literally every word that comes out of your mouth be damned!

    There's absolutely no point discussing. You're simply wrong. Nothing you've said is truthful. Maybe if you read my posts you'd see the questions you missed - But you have no interest in that. I know this because the posts are STILL THERE. You absolutely COULD go read them if you felt like it - And you choose not to. I'm not going to repeat the same exact things yet again.

    You don't want an honest discussion. Why would I attempt to have one when you're not attempting it?
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-09-14 at 05:35 PM.

  4. #64
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    So, I don't think this will ever happen, but I'll play along with the 'what if' scenario and answer: Maybe. It depends on a lot of factors. One would be the graphics, as modern graphics would help pull me in. Another would be Transmog and the Barbershop, as I like my characters to look good. If just about everything else runs with the Classic/Vanilla philosophy and plays like Classic did, but just with added content, probably, yeah.

    Might want to add an actual poll next time, though.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Why should I try, yet again, to tell you why it is absolutely fucking nuts for Blizzard to follow one person's idea of what is good for the game? You've made it clear you've dug your head ENTIRELY in the sand. As far as you're concerned, they should just charge ahead and have no questions whatsoever about what "in the spirit of Classic" means - After all, YOU know, and that means Blizzard should just follow your lead, right? The potentially millions of people who disagree with literally every word that comes out of your mouth be damned!
    Again, putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said that. I've never implied it. I've never even hinted at this. You have created this weird head canon of a narrative that simply doesn't exist. To be perfectly clear:

    - I am by no means, an arbiter of what Blizzard can/should develop
    - I am not dictating what Classic development needs to be
    - I am not dictating what a potential Classic + should be
    - I am not attempting to direct anything, anyone, anywhere

    All I am saying is that the concept of continuing Classic with new content would be cool. I would like that. I would be interested in that. I would like to see divergent stories, quests, characters and gameplay. That's it. I'm not dictating what it should be, nor am I saying anyone HAS to do this. This is just something that I personally would be interested in. And given threads like this one, I don't believe I am alone in this.

    There's absolutely no point discussing. You're simply wrong. Nothing you've said is truthful. Maybe if you read my posts you'd see the questions you missed - But you have no interest in that. I know this because the posts are STILL THERE. You absolutely COULD go read them if you felt like it - And you choose not to. I'm not going to repeat the same exact things yet again.
    I can't read questions that are badly formed, incoherent, or not even questions. And I have little interest in answering questions I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED.

    You don't want an honest discussion. Why would I attempt to have one when you're not attempting it?
    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Again, putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said that. I've never implied it. I've never even hinted at this. You have created this weird head canon of a narrative that simply doesn't exist.
    You're just the innocent arbiter of what "should" be in Classic+ by means of what's "in the Spirit of Classic."

    Don't worry, you're coming across loud and clear. We got it.

    To be perfectly clear:

    All I am saying is that the concept of continuing Classic with new content would be cool. I would like that. I would be interested in that. I would like to see divergent stories, quests, characters and gameplay. That's it.
    Which is not how this discussion began whatsoever. You're being entirely dishonest.

    You said that's what EVERYONE wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I really feel like a lot of people are missing the point here. What people want is the gameplay, atmosphere and aesthetic of Classic, but with new content to do. This isn't 'just play Retail', or 'TBC already exists'.

    People are looking to fork what Classic was. Instead of moving into TBC, it goes in a different direction, with different content that keeps the Classic mindset and mentality.
    When I tried to argue that everyone wants something DIFFERENT out of Classic+, you rebutted, saying all of those things were the same. That everyone wanted the same thing, which was Classic+, and the details would be worked out later. This is entirely dishonest at it's core, and shows just how self centered your idea was to begin with - Everyone would just "get on" with what you had in mind for Classic+, details be damned. I told you so. Not a single person would agree on ANY direction to take Classic+, whether it be new races, new classes, new mechanics, new story, new ANYTHING - You'd never get a single soul to agree 100% on any new anything added to Classic+ as "in the spirit of Classic."

    Then you had this hilarious exchange, where you stated these two things back to back and didn't even bat an eye:

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Do not tell me I'm misunderstanding what I'm asking for. That is a ridiculous level of hubris on your part.

    Yes. That is what's being asked for here. Classic with new content. It is different. It is an extension of what Classic is. It;s the setting, gameplay, aesthetic, mechanics, and environment of Classic... Continued. That is the crux of it. Taking Classic as a base and building on top of it new stories, dungeons, quests and raids for players to enjoy. Pointing out that Classic already exists is silly. We know it does.
    Apparently you are suffering from memory loss, because then you forgot it fucking happened. Every time I've referenced it since, you've pretended it didn't happen. You directly told me "Don't tell me I'm misunderstanding what I'm asking for!" and then turned IMMEDIATELY around, and told me yes, I in fact, understood EXACTLY what you were asking for - And it was exactly the opposite of what you said previously.

    And finally, when asked directly multiple times:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No we shouldn't, but when attempting to recreate something in the spirit of another thing, yes, consensus on what "in the spirit of that thing" means is generally a good fucking starting point.

    How, exactly, are you going to decide on any change at all without having common ground to stand on?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If you plan to keep Classic "in the spirit of Classic," you first need to understand what "in the spirit of Classic" means. No new content is made "in the spirit of Retail." It has no plan. It's simply whatever Blizzard decides makes sense. As such, there's no specific idea that it needs to conform to in order to be agreed upon as "Retail content."

    If we simply put TBC into Classic and called it Classic+, you'd rightfully say "That's not in the spirit of Classic" and be upset. Yet it would be new content, and if they didn't change classes, it'd fit your bill of "new story, new content, new gameplay, but mechanically unchanged."

    It's not "Will everyone be 100% ecstatic?"

    It's "Will ANYONE even agreee with this change to begin with?" And you can't say they would, because you don't have an explanation for what "in the spirit of Classic" means. For all you know, ANY change at all will be met with extreme distaste for not being what any person at all believed was "in the spirit of Classic" because you can't seem to describe what, even in broad terms, that seems to mean.

    Lol. I'm not even going to attempt to explain to you why pay-per-patch is possibly the worst idea you've ever had. It shouldn't take long to figure it out on your own, but let's just remind you of the S.E.L.F.I.E. patch and ask how much you'd expect to pay for it.

    Except that answer is no less good than your answer. You want to know what happens in the story after Classic. Retail is the answer.

    "I don't like Retail." Too fucking bad. Do you really expect them to remake the game from the ground up because you don't like it? Why would they do this? You refuse to answer, because you know the answer is "they wouldn't."
    You JUST SO HAPPEN to clip the entire answer and not bother to read it. Every time.

    Don't pretend to be arguing in good faith. You haven't even given it an attempt.

    I can't read questions that are badly formed, incoherent, or not even questions. And I have little interest in answering questions I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED.
    You haven't answered SHIT. You literally cut every single one of those posts and responded to one TINY section.

    You want a discussion? Have a discussion. Don't cry when someone tries.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-09-14 at 07:23 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You're just the innocent arbiter of what "should" be in Classic+ by means of what's "in the Spirit of Classic."

    Don't worry, you're coming across loud and clear. We got it.
    Again. I never said that. I never implied that. I have no idea where you keep getting that idea, but it simply is not true. If that's what you think, then either I didn't explain myself well or you simply misunderstood. Let me be as crystal clear as I can possibly be here:

    I, BY NO MEANS, CONSIDER MYSELF THE ARBITER OF WHAT CLASSIC + CAN/IS/SHOULD/WOULD BE.

    I hope that clears this up.

    Which is not how this discussion began whatsoever. You're being entirely dishonest.

    You said that's what EVERYONE wants.
    Again. I never said that. I very literally never said this. You even qupted the part where I very clearly did not say this. Please show me where I used the word 'EVERYONE'. Please. Point it out.

    When I tried to argue that everyone wants something DIFFERENT out of Classic+, you rebutted, saying all of those things were the same. That everyone wanted the same thing, which was Classic+, and the details would be worked out later. This is entirely dishonest at it's core, and shows just how self centered your idea was to begin with - Everyone would just "get on" with what you had in mind for Classic+, details be damned. I told you so. Not a single person would agree on ANY direction to take Classic+, whether it be new races, new classes, new mechanics, new story, new ANYTHING - You'd never get a single soul to agree 100% on any new anything added to Classic+ as "in the spirit of Classic."
    Again, Jesus Fucking Christ, I never said that. You are making stuff up because I think you may be having a different conversation in your head than we are having 'out loud'. All I said was that we did not need consensus, because like literally every other thing in the game, including Classic, there has never been consensus. All of this other narrative trappings you are attaching to this discussion is your weird home made smokescreen.

    Then you had this hilarious exchange, where you stated these two things back to back and didn't even bat an eye:

    Apparently you are suffering from memory loss, because then you forgot it fucking happened. Every time I've referenced it since, you've pretended it didn't happen. You directly told me "Don't tell me I'm misunderstanding what I'm asking for!" and then turned IMMEDIATELY around, and told me yes, I in fact, understood EXACTLY what you were asking for - And it was exactly the opposite of what you said previously.


    Because context is important? Because they aren't actually at odds with each other at all? I don't know what to tell you, your lack of ability to understand what is being said isn't really my problem. I'm not going to attempt to answer a point of yours that isn't worth addressing because it doesn't make sense.


    And finally, when asked directly multiple times:

    You JUST SO HAPPEN to clip the entire answer and not bother to read it. Every time.

    Don't pretend to be arguing in good faith. You haven't even given it an attempt.
    There isn't a question there. What the flying fuck do you expect me to answer? It';s a rambling mess of random thoughts. It's verbal diarrhea. If you want somebody to answer a question, ask it. Directly. This is just your stream of conciousness flowing into a jumble of words. Of course I'm going to snip it. There's nothing there to work with.

    You haven't answered SHIT. You literally cut every single one of those posts and responded to one TINY section.

    You want a discussion? Have a discussion. Don't cry when someone tries.
    I have literally answered every question you have asked. If you wish to ask more questions I will happily answer those as well. What I won't do is sift through a bunch of meandering thoughts, you constantly putting words in my mouth, or misrepresenting what I'm saying. If you actually want to discuss what Classic + could be, why I think it would be cool, how I think it could work, I'd be more than happy to have that discussion.

    If all you want to do is bitch and moan, continue trying to state that I said things I never said, and stomp your feet on the floor and act like a child, then I think we're done here.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    then I think we're done here.
    Don't worry, I took the liberty of essentially doing what you did to my post and did it to yours as well. "Verbal diarreha" and whatnot.

    So you agree then, right? That's how this works, if I just cut out your post and pretend it's not against mine I can say I win?

    Again: If you want a discussion: Have a fucking discussion. Don't belittle people who try. "Verbal Diarreha" my ass.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    I’m not against a refresh classic, but I don’t think I’d partake. That being said, they shouldn’t waste their time making new content for classic. I could see them redoing classic and adding newer QoL changes like dual spec and reduced mount prices. I’d consider trying classic again if they added some QoL.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Why would they make a new path from there? Classic is mostly dead anyway, other than 'new' TBC servers.

    No, they're not going to make a Classic+, no how much people dream about it.
    Because everyone made a huge stink about the phrase "you think you do but you don't" in reference to Classic.
    So which is it?
    Do you want classic or not?

    Classic is the product that is supposed to be the king of WoW and people spent immense time trying to convince Blizzard to support it, and now its just dead.
    Like, log on a classic server now.
    Chances are you will be one of less than 50 total players on.

    That is not good, no matter how you slice it.
    They should have never made separate products.

    That's not how the progressing version of the game works, and that isn't how Classic into TBC worked originally either.

    But anyway, at this point just pack up and move on imo.
    This product clearly has a shelf life, so you are going to need to figure out a way to rerelease it every 2 years, or make the servers more sustainable.

    My vote is just add all the content removed from Classic and TBC back into the modern game and be done.
    Seems like a great opportunity for Chromie Time.
    Last edited by Hey There Guys its Metro; 2021-09-14 at 07:58 PM.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Classic+ would just be a retcon nightmare, they won't be able to add stuff to it without affecting the subsequent expansions.

    If they ever want to make this i could see a seasonal thing with periodic server resets, but way too much work for something that's played by a fraction of the players when they have huge issues with the game as a whole.
    No it would not. Cause it would stick in vanilla world and they would just add in stuff that they originally were going to. Like the raid that was supposed to be in SW. It would be vanilla with no new expansions and they would create new raida/dungeons in the vanilla world that had no affect on expansions. It would be a seperate world.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I’m not against a refresh classic, but I don’t think I’d partake. That being said, they shouldn’t waste their time making new content for classic. I could see them redoing classic and adding newer QoL changes like dual spec and reduced mount prices. I’d consider trying classic again if they added some QoL.
    Out of curiosity, why would you say that it would be a waste of time for them to make new content?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by regardoz View Post
    If what you said is true , i would rather this be more graphic engine changed , i would like it to be that "There are universes and each has azeroth" so this is another timeline that has different story in azeroth like for example in this version thrall is stupid and Garrosh is not the prideful person in our azeroth , for example anduin died instead of varian and varian transformed into the angriest dude in earth , just giving thoughts you know what i mean ?

    i dont want it to be like a same game same graphics same same . there has to be connection

    I would certainly enjoy seeing the fall of the alliance along with a gnome genocide.

  14. #74
    I don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can even consider Blizzard putting together a team to create classic+ content. You know, the same company that did the bare minimum for all of classic so far, the same company that let bots and gold selling take over their game, the same company that changed batching about a day before classic ended... Yeah they are totally going to do it.

    And look what a great game they are making with retail, everyone loves current Blizzard! They would totally create amazing content for classic!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghays View Post
    I would certainly enjoy seeing the fall of the alliance along with a gnome genocide.
    haha . see ? more idea can be twisted into this alternative azeroth

  16. #76
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Out of curiosity, why would you say that it would be a waste of time for them to make new content?
    Because making new original content for a version of a game that's over 16 years old just seems like a financial risk. It also makes no sense from a business perspective because the idea was to put in as little effort as possible and reap big profits. Blizzard didn't have to reinvent the wheel with classic, they just had to rerelease it and hope for the best. Blizzard has no intention to put effort into classic other than to make sure it's as bug free as possible. It's a nostalgia ride that has a definitive end. Also I'd prefer they focus on retail because that's the future of WoW, not a trip back in time to past expansions.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Because making new original content for a version of a game that's over 16 years old just seems like a financial risk. It also makes no sense from a business perspective because the idea was to put in as little effort as possible and reap big profits. Blizzard didn't have to reinvent the wheel with classic, they just had to rerelease it and hope for the best. Blizzard has no intention to put effort into classic other than to make sure it's as bug free as possible. It's a nostalgia ride that has a definitive end. Also I'd prefer they focus on retail because that's the future of WoW, not a trip back in time to past expansions.
    Be that as it may, I would venture to say that really only Blizzard has the metrics and visibility to see whether or not it would be 'worth it'. You might be completely correct: it may in fact be something that would have little return on investment.

    But, I think you also have to measure what that investment would actually be. Imagine if continued content wasn't anywhere near the scope of a traditional expansion. So no new massive game mechanics, no additional classes, no huge new zones to add in the game. What if the additions were smaller, more streamlined. New dungeons, raids and quests. Mostly reusing existing assets as much as possible. Instead of reinventing the wheel like they tend to do in an expansion, use a small dedicated team to continue building simpler content.

    Now, only Blizzard really has the data to know how likely this could be profitable, but if they monetize it effectively, I do think that it could both bring in additional revenue, and also intrigue people into returning to a game that they don't care for (Retail) or feel like they've already done everything a million times (Classic).

  18. #78
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    I don't trust them to make new content that stays true to vanilla.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Joe who?

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