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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Gotta stop blaming Activision bobby doesn't know anything about wow.

    A lot of it is unskilled untalented devs pushing pet projects. The playerbase knows more about the game then most devs do at this point.

    WoW has suffered brain drain for years hiring bottom of the barrel devs with rock bottom wages riding off their reputation.
    He doesn't know about wow but he does know about quarterly earnings. You're delusional if you think he's not making Blizz do what they can to make each quarter look good.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    It is slightly different with most of the fixes being in the mid patch rather then last so that shows improvement at least...

    Blizzard seems genuinely worried and uncertain of their future this time though. I hope the feeling sticks.
    The next expansion will be the real marker if things have truly changed, we've been through this before you can you cynically say that the scandals are the reason this is coming earlier than expected. I do not see any apology, acknowledgement that these systems were badly designed or the thinking behind this sudden change. You cannot expect different results with the same people in charge, the same attitude still remains at Blizzard that they know better than the whining players.

  3. #363
    Why is anyone acting like 9.1.5 is fixing things so "early" compared to other expansions? It's not going to be live until right around the 1 year mark, give or take.
    Hardly an early/quick fix for all the problems from the Beta.
    WoW, and Blizzard games in general, were something I loved and looked forward to playing for over 20 years. I still remember the hype I had for Diablo when I went to pick up my copy at Circuit City of all places. At this point though, it's more like an abusive relationship. They promise to change, eventually make short-term fixes when you start to pack up your shit and head for the door, so you stick around and 6 months later you have a black eye.
    All the good will and nostalgia have been burned up for me, I only log in to make some gold while my sub time is still active(until Dec).

    BTW, a lot of players who weren't into raiding loved Benthic gear in 8.2. Sadly 9.1 added a worse version of that system with more hoops to jump through. Only the raiders bitched and moaned because the Benthic bonuses were, *gasp*, useful inside the new raid.

  4. #364
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i will only feel optimistic if Danuser and his team are fired and Ion is moved back into raid design
    Who would replace them? Just anyone?

    Filed under: Be careful what you wish for.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The next expansion will be the real marker if things have truly changed, we've been through this before you can you cynically say that the scandals are the reason this is coming earlier than expected. I do not see any apology, acknowledgement that these systems were badly designed or the thinking behind this sudden change. You cannot expect different results with the same people in charge, the same attitude still remains at Blizzard that they know better than the whining players.
    It is how I'm treating it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze if there is another grind system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Who would replace them? Just anyone?

    Filed under: Be careful what you wish for.
    Maybe no one?

    System designers are a detriment not a benefit to the game. Dungeons and raids yes please!

    AP,conduits, renown,souls, covenants, corruption, research, azerite, etc, No,No,No.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    It is how I'm treating it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze if there is another grind system.
    The first step towards changing is acknowledging there is a problem, Blizzard is still defending their old system designs that shows nothing is really gonna change.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Gotta stop blaming Activision bobby doesn't know anything about wow.
    IMO, gotta stop blaming........anyone. The idea that one person is responsible for the state of the game is really not logical. If anything, it could be blamed on a 'too many chiefs, not enough Indians" or whatever your local version of that saying is, but again, I dont know that trying to place blame does anything. I think the best thing people can do is take a week off the game, play something else, and think about whether you (not you personally) really enjoy the gameplay, or just play out of habit. Are some players addicted? yeah, without a doubt, but i think there is an even larger percentage of players who just play out of habit.

    I say that because so many players say "well there is nothing better out there to play" which to me sounds like "if i quit there will be a void i cant fill" which is why i suggest trying some other games for a week - just dont touch wow at all and see if you REALLY miss it as much as you think you will (again, not YOU, just anyone on the fence about wow). This is what i did - i took 1 week off, and never came back, and have no intention of ever coming back. That doesnt mean i wont, it just means nothing about the gameplay excites me - i wasnt looking forward to an hour spare time to log in and play - i just logged in out of habit. If Blizzard do make massive changes for 10.0, ill happily come back and play again, but the current direction of the game, in particular the classes, as well as the content itself, is not enjoyable to me.

    The small group of friends who did the same with me have played wildlands, breakpoint, vermintide 1 and 2, division 2, FF14, and New World (among others) and had an absolute BLAST playing different things. Turns out, trying to encourage / force Blizzard to make changes to wow so i enjoy it again is the wrong way to go about it - just find a game that does fit your requirements / needs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The first step towards changing is acknowledging there is a problem, Blizzard is still defending their old system designs that shows nothing is really gonna change.
    This is the biggest red flag for me - the repeating of the same situation:

    Alpha comes out, players immediately raise concerns about X
    Players suggest they change X to Y
    Blizzard defend the system, and say "its only alpha, you wait till you see beta build!
    Beta comes out, MORE players raise the same concerns
    Blizzard again defend the system, and say "its only beta, you wait till you see the first raid tier!
    Game launches, even more players raise the same concerns
    Blizzard again defend the system saying "its only the first tier, you just wait for what we have next!
    Mid expansion they say "we are listening, and have plans!"
    A.2 patch introduces a middle ground between what the players suggested, and what Blizzard want.
    Players ask why it wasnt fixed in alpha
    Blizzard make excuses, going so far as to blame "lore"
    A.3 patch is shown, and they gladly announce that X system is being changed to Y
    The game is super enjoyable and in a great space, the players are happy

    Next expansion is announced, and includes Z system...
    The fans raise concerns.......................
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    IMO, gotta stop blaming........anyone.
    I think it's okay to blame the game director of a game for its state. They have to sign off on everything so even if something wasn't his or her idea or work being done by them they're responsible.
    It's like if a ship sinks it's the captain that'll face the heat since it's their responsibility to make sure that the ship does not sink.

  9. #369
    With the current staff at Blizzard I just don't see much changing. The story is at an all time low, the game is still filled with really bad design decisions, they don't innovate at all and just screw up about every new feature they try only to leave it hanging after the expansion is over. We have been playing the same expansion 3 times in a row and it feels like they just keep making it worse.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I think it's okay to blame the game director of a game for its state. They have to sign off on everything so even if something wasn't his or her idea or work being done by them they're responsible.
    It's like if a ship sinks it's the captain that'll face the heat since it's their responsibility to make sure that the ship does not sink.
    So I don't disagree with the logic - my only "issue" is - what do we as players stand to gain by fighting amongst ourselves about who's fault it is? But yes, the buck has to stop somewhere, and game director seems as logical place as any b
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  11. #371
    Bloodsail Admiral salate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    They turned things around with BFA. Why couldn't they turn it around in shadowlands? And what "foundations" of this expansion are flawed, especially given the light of the recent changes?
    To be honest the last patch (the Nzoth raid) made me quit until SL I always loved Old God theme, but they didnt make it great. Maybe my expectation were too high, but still I expected more than two zones lazy revamp, pure random system with gear and unfriendly amount of daily quests. Warfronts are ultraboring, and... Islands. Islands was the feature I loved the most in BFA, but then they decided to make it less mystical (in loot terms) and turned it to boring chore, but I remember when we started to dig up for some exploration, different rares killing, trying to gather only one type of mobs to get any info about loot. That was so exciting, and they got rid of it... But well I dont think anybody else loved it the way I did

    As for Shadowlands, I really liked it in the beginning. But then... 9.0.5 happened and I believe that was the point where I didn't really understand how could they make a patch that should have been a part of the game in the very beginning? They have so much experience. Patch stories, mistakes and stuff that already happened since TBC...

    Then 9.1. Okay, they've shown it on Blizzcon and there I understood. They had almost nothing to show us except the trailer which had... Nothing :| And just went offline for some time.

    But I'm agree with you on part where things must start with somewhere, Legion timewalking with m+ made me curious, really. And... Dunno nothing else for now. I'm not really big fan of more customisations but happy for people who wants it. Letting people change covenants without penalty make me wonder why would they even lock people with the choice in the first place? So all that "RPG Choice Philosophy" works for 3 patches only? If rumours about Mage Tower returning are real, then its a good chance for some people to have fun with some challenge. They even letting us start farming islands again!

    But again, all my curiosity goes for... Old stuff. I'm not trying to say "omg give me more new content right now", I just want them to make a game where you consider all ups and downs, and dont make patches where you literally patch things that should have been from the start (badges + item upgrades) because atleast 9.0.5 was either to show that they didnt really polish SL that well, or just artificially prolonged time between patches.

    Optimistic Am I or pessimistic?

    Optimistic for sure, I just hope that people who work there are in love with the game, their work environment is well for them, and they hold for us in the future more good stuff. But that's me, hehe.
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    To be honest the last patch (the Nzoth raid) made me quit until SL I always loved Old God theme, but they didnt make it great. Maybe my expectation were too high, but still I expected more than two zones lazy revamp, pure random system with gear and unfriendly amount of daily quests. Warfronts are ultraboring, and... Islands. Islands was the feature I loved the most in BFA, but then they decided to make it less mystical (in loot terms) and turned it to boring chore, but I remember when we started to dig up for some exploration, different rares killing, trying to gather only one type of mobs to get any info about loot. That was so exciting, and they got rid of it... But well I dont think anybody else loved it the way I did

    As for Shadowlands, I really liked it in the beginning. But then... 9.0.5 happened and I believe that was the point where I didn't really understand how could they make a patch that should have been a part of the game in the very beginning? They have so much experience. Patch stories, mistakes and stuff that already happened since TBC...

    Then 9.1. Okay, they've shown it on Blizzcon and there I understood. They had almost nothing to show us except the trailer which had... Nothing :| And just went offline for some time.

    But I'm agree with you on part where things must start with somewhere, Legion timewalking with m+ made me curious, really. And... Dunno nothing else for now. I'm not really big fan of more customisations but happy for people who wants it. Letting people change covenants without penalty make me wonder why would they even lock people with the choice in the first place? So all that "RPG Choice Philosophy" works for 3 patches only? If rumours about Mage Tower returning are real, then its a good chance for some people to have fun with some challenge. They even letting us start farming islands again!

    But again, all my curiosity goes for... Old stuff. I'm not trying to say "omg give me more new content right now", I just want them to make a game where you consider all ups and downs, and dont make patches where you literally patch things that should have been from the start (badges + item upgrades) because atleast 9.0.5 was either to show that they didnt really polish SL that well, or just artificially prolonged time between patches.

    Optimistic Am I or pessimistic?

    Optimistic for sure, I just hope that people who work there are in love with the game, their work environment is well for them, and they hold for us in the future more good stuff. But that's me, hehe.
    I'd agree with you there. I wish they would have made a full on, old god zone, like an actual location within the sleeping city or nyalotha and the raid was a location in that city rather than just the raid itself being nyalotha. Old god lore is awesome, but despite the fact that they revamped 2 zones, they did a really good job with it, and it was compelling stories, and great gameplay in the end of BFA.

  13. #373
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Who would replace them? Just anyone?

    Filed under: Be careful what you wish for.
    someone who know about warcraft story? or someone who are actually competent? i don't know why it has to be someone worse, if that is possible

  14. #374
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    9.1.5 would feel optimistic...

    If this wasn't the THIRD (or fourth) expansion where they doubled and tripled down on bad gameplay decisions, telling players it was "technically impossible" to do it the better ways that players were suggesting, and then implementing those changes when subs crashed.

    As someone previously said, I'm not gonna feel good about someone giving me a 20, if they fuck me in the ass then shove the 20 in my butt.

    Blizzard making changes that people were suggesting in ALPHA does not mean things are going to improve more after this. I would bet money on them releasing a half-finished expansion with busted ass systems and more shitty borrowed power in another 16 months. They'll claim that they can't make improvements that players are suggesting, and when they lose over 70% of their playerbase they'll magically be able to implement said changes.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    someone who know about warcraft story? or someone who are actually competent? i don't know why it has to be someone worse, if that is possible
    People say "Fire Ion!" all the time without saying what would be better. Its a disingenuous statement, and quite frankly rude to call to fire someone when they are doing a good job. Please do inform me who would be better suited for the role if not Ion. Ion has experience designing raids, quests, dungeons. He has experience with game balance and overarching gameplay narratives. Ion does a good job explaining his teams position on issues within the game, and game balance. He is arguably one of the best communicators WoW has had in letting the community know of upcoming changes, content updates, etc.

    Please do suggest who would be better in the position? And please don't tell me "he should be fired because I don't like xyz feature in the game!" or "no fly no buy" or some other non-sense like that.

  16. #376
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    People say "Fire Ion!" all the time without saying what would be better. Its a disingenuous statement, and quite frankly rude to call to fire someone when they are doing a good job. Please do inform me who would be better suited for the role if not Ion. Ion has experience designing raids, quests, dungeons. He has experience with game balance and overarching gameplay narratives. Ion does a good job explaining his teams position on issues within the game, and game balance. He is arguably one of the best communicators WoW has had in letting the community know of upcoming changes, content updates, etc.

    Please do suggest who would be better in the position? And please don't tell me "he should be fired because I don't like xyz feature in the game!" or "no fly no buy" or some other non-sense like that.
    im not saying to fire ion, are you reading? i said to move him back to raid design where he do best. Later 3 expansions ahs being dogshit, so changes are necessary anyway.

    how the fuck do you want me to suggest people to replace then? im not working at blizzard neither i work on the department to know better suited names, hell, hire me for the story team. Pretty sure i do something better than danuser.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im not saying to fire ion, are you reading? i said to move him back to raid design where he do best. Later 3 expansions ahs being dogshit, so changes are necessary anyway.

    how the fuck do you want me to suggest people to replace then? im not working at blizzard neither i work on the department to know better suited names, hell, hire me for the story team. Pretty sure i do something better than danuser.
    This is a common "defence" I see when someone points out faults in the game, or devs, or whatever. People jump straight to "well what's the solution? Solve this problem". That's not the part we play in this, that's not our role. It's totally ok to say "I don't think bobs right for this position" without having to say "we should replace him with Sarah".
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  18. #378
    I still can't fathom how so many people that "hate the game" and think that blizzard is now a shit company continue to lurk around these forums posting dozens of times a day, truly sad.

    "But bledgor I used to like the game and think blizzard could make it good again!!!!!" Well then just check out the updates, stop hanging around like some bitter ex. I see constant complaints that blizzard doesn't listen to your feedback so you posting here (a fan site mind you) is by your logic useless anyways.

    There is a famous quote that any publicity is good publicity, and by constantly engaging people for positive or negative you are giving the game you hate by develops you think are crap free publicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    OP should have just made a thread titles something like, "Reasons to be excited for WoW's future" and not included a question for posters to answer if the answers they don't like are just going to make the OP buttmad.

    Also just to be clear:

    Blizzard doesn't (or rather--shouldn't) get credit for doing something that should have been done in the first place. Things people were screaming at them during the Alpha and Beta and not only were ignored, but told they were just flat out wrong. Only to now be brought into the game just coincidentally at the onset of absolutely horrific real life news and player numbers falling off a cliff.

    You do not get praise for undoing the awful gameplay changes you intentionally included in the first place.

    Now, if 10.0 comes around and they get a bunch of negative feedback about their inevitable new borrowed power system and then actually change it before the expansion launches? Then you can get credit.

    But not when this is the 3rd expansion in a row of them pulling this and then having to 'pull the ripcord' by undoing all the awful stuff and admitting, by their actions, that the testers actually were right all along. And then declare these changes with an air of, "Oh we listened guys, aren't we great?"

    They don't even just do this with the gameplay, but the story as well. I still vividly remember that interview where smug ass Ion Hazzikostas and Josh Allen were all but laughing at a question someone asked about adding in more Void Elf customizations so people could look like a High Elf on the Alliance and then their answer was, "Play a Blood Elf" and then gave a half-assed lore defense as the reason to not have them. But hey? Bad PR? Players leaving? Oh well now suddenly Void Elves are getting all of the things those people were asking for. Interesting that. I don't recall the story really changing in this regard to accommodate the new 9.1.5 customizations.

    I'm totally sure the story will address this, though.
    Just because a vocal minority screamed something in the beta doesn't make them right and the devs wrong. This idea needs to stop.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I still can't fathom how so many people that "hate the game" and think that blizzard is now a shit company continue to lurk around these forums posting dozens of times a day, truly sad.

    "But bledgor I used to like the game and think blizzard could make it good again!!!!!" Well then just check out the updates, stop hanging around like some bitter ex. I see constant complaints that blizzard doesn't listen to your feedback so you posting here (a fan site mind you) is by your logic useless anyways.

    There is a famous quote that any publicity is good publicity, and by constantly engaging people for positive or negative you are giving the game you hate by develops you think are crap free publicity.
    I honestly don't get it. I took a break from basically just before Antorus opened until the end of BfA and while maybe once every couple of weeks I'd check out the front page in terms of news, I didn't engage with the forums. The vast majority posting here nearly daily while claiming to have quit are most likely liars and just doing it to "prove their point". Then again we have "casuals" on here that spend hours a week posting here and have the audacity to call themselves casual.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because a vocal minority screamed something in the beta doesn't make them right and the devs wrong. This idea needs to stop.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I honestly don't get it. I took a break from basically just before Antorus opened until the end of BfA and while maybe once every couple of weeks I'd check out the front page in terms of news, I didn't engage with the forums. The vast majority posting here nearly daily while claiming to have quit are most likely liars and just doing it to "prove their point". Then again we have "casuals" on here that spend hours a week posting here and have the audacity to call themselves casual.
    Day 9 had the most amazing response about feedback.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_pyZWPxiVg

    I have taken breaks, and when I do I'll check the updates/changes, and occasionally post in random other forums, but generally I'll avoid the wow forums because I am not playing, I can't give good feedback/have a good discussion about something I am not playing.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-09-14 at 11:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

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