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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So its totally ok for you to be blindly optimistic, but not ok for others to join the "blind hate train". This is what extreme bias looks like. Again, why ask a question you dont want to hear the answer to? If you are excited and happy, good for you! thats great! but not everyone is.
    I'm not blindly optimistic. I've even said in this very thread there are things that I haven't liked over the years in the game, but generally the game is still good and worth the $15 a month subscription fee.

    I do want to hear the answer to the question. What I don't like is you and others attacking me for being optimistic and calling me a "shill" "white knight" or other derogatory terms because you don't think people should feel the way I do. You may have not said those exact terms, but you insinuate it with your posts.

    Its okay if you are pessimistic. I think its interesting to hear why people are. But I think its also equally good to hear why people are optimistic, and what makes them excited to play the game. I feel that optimism is always better than pessimism in all situations in life. Its a sad sad life when one is lived pessimistically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And it was a game enough players wanted also. That the devs wanted it is entirely beside the point.

    We can also point to games where the devs' vision was at odds with what players wanted. Those games are called "failures".

    If the devs insist on gratifying their own desires, then unless those align with what the players want, the devs should be replaced. There is no virtue in gratifying their egos.
    You should watch this day 9 video on player feedback. I think its relevant to the discussion. But I still disagree with you. Agree to disagree i guess. Cheers!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_pyZWPxiVg

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post

    I do want to hear the answer to the question. What I don't like is you and others attacking me for being optimistic and calling me a "shill" "white knight" or other derogatory terms because you don't think people should feel the way I do. You may have not said those exact terms, but you insinuate it with your posts.
    Quote where i used any of those terms, or "insinuated" those terms, otherwise you are just proving my point. You created a thread ASKING for opinions, and have gone on the offensive with anyone who says anything that goes against your narrative, and yet immedaitely "100% agree" with anything anyone says that you think fits your narrative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Beta has always been, is now and will be in the future for fixing bugs. It will never be for ripping out entire systems that the expansion is designed around. That cake is more or less baked.
    Many people don't seem to understand this at all.

    They cant just say "hey, i guess we will get rid of covenants because the players don't want them!.. but oh wait, covenants are a core primary feature of this new expansion... I guess we have to go back to the drawing board and not release an expansion for another 2 years.."

    Yeah, that's not happening.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Beta has always been, is now and will be in the future for fixing bugs. It will never be for ripping out entire systems that the expansion is designed around. That cake is more or less baked.
    Defintely. As are the PTR for the most part. I mean yes there are cases where things were massively overhauled in Beta or PTR, but the times they haven't far outweigh those that did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Many people don't seem to understand this at all.

    They cant just say "hey, i guess we will get rid of covenants because the players don't want them!.. but oh wait, covenants are a core primary feature of this new expansion... I guess we have to go back to the drawing board and not release an expansion for another 2 years.."

    Yeah, that's not happening.
    The closest to something of that magnitude was Path of the Titans which was in Alpha nearly Beta iirc.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because a vocal minority screamed something in the beta doesn't make them right and the devs wrong. This idea needs to stop.
    And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.
    How do you know?

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    How do you know?
    Oh dear......I see you ignored my request for quotes after you accused me of various insults, and instead decided to attack this without thinking at all. Read what you quoted again, honestly, just read it and think it through - i made literally NO claim either way, which is EXACTLY my point. How could you possibly miss that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.
    Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened to for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate.

    You can think one thing and I can think something completely different, both of us could be right, wrong or anywhere in between.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-09-15 at 12:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh dear......I see you ignored my request for quotes after you accused me of various insults, and instead decided to attack this without thinking at all. Read what you quoted again, honestly, just read it and think it through - i made literally NO claim either way, which is EXACTLY my point. How could you possibly miss that?
    Nope. I'm not going to go through your posts in this thread picking out your comments. Its your general tone. Now that thats out of the way:

    Attack? Are you okay?

    How do you possibly get I attacked you, from me asking "how do you know?" Also my question still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate. You can think one thing and I can think something completely different, both of us could be right, wrong or anywhere in between.
    Also 100% this.

  10. #410
    Optimistic about what? Them doing the same shit for 3 xpacks now? Making systems no one wants with limitations that no one wants and then unlocking them in x.3 patches after players had enough of the bullshit and start leaving(sl one came early, i wonder why...)?

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened to for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate.
    You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?

    And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Optimistic about what? Them doing the same shit for 3 xpacks now? Making systems no one wants with limitations that no one wants and then unlocking them in x.3 patches after players had enough of the bullshit and start leaving(sl one came early, i wonder why...)?
    What concerns me is much of the "optimism" is based on staff changes that were made for entirely different reasons than performance, or the performance of the game - they were directly linked to the entirely unrelated court proceedings and accusations. Some people are excited for a handful of new cosmetics, which im totally ok with - at least that is SOMETHING, but when i see people stating they are really excited for the future of wow because some guy was fired for having wandering hands, i just scratch me head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Nope. I'm not going to go through your posts in this thread picking out your comments. Its your general tone. Now that thats out of the way:

    Attack? Are you okay?

    How do you possibly get I attacked you, from me asking "how do you know?" Also my question still stands.
    .
    What question? What on earth are you talking about? You asked "how do you know?" how do i know WHAT? I made NO claim in the post you quoted, and that was EXACTLY the issue I had with the poster i replied to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomchicken View Post
    If you got rid of the idiots in charge of the last 3 expansions then I would start to feel more optimistic.
    Considering the past 3 expansions have been great, gameplay wise, i'd take another 3 just like those in a heart beat, than risk getting another WoD.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?
    I know reading is hard for you wow haters when it doesn't contain the words blizzard bad, but if you read what I said, I said quote "Even IF they weren't a minority...." as in a hypothetical, as in even if I buy into your complete bullshit it STILL wouldn't necessarily make you right.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.
    It is implied in your post, and you can lie and say it isn't or being massively naive, but you did.

    The reason we CAN say they are vocal minority is because even if you took every single person that posts on mmo, wow reddit, the wow forums, and posts about it on twitter it would be a minority, unless you believe wow is below 1 mill subs global (rofl if you do).

    You want to be a constant negative Nancy, have at it, but some of us in life don't like to be overly pessimistic as it is a pretty shitty way to live. Not to mention again we might not agree with you, which is something you completely left out of my post when you quoted, instead you cherry picked a piece you could dissect to be angry about.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-09-15 at 01:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Do you feel optimistic about WoW and where its headed?
    Nope, not at all. Played this shit for 16 years and seen it going downhill for a long time because developers who hate their playerbase make arbitrary decisions to increase engagement metrics instead of making the game better. Retail is dead and classic will be after wrath.

  15. #415
    Well they're addressing issues and gripes I and probably hundreds if not thousands others pointed out to them. Now it's really up to them to keep it that way and not screw it up again when 10.0 hits.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?

    And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What concerns me is much of the "optimism" is based on staff changes that were made for entirely different reasons than performance, or the performance of the game - they were directly linked to the entirely unrelated court proceedings and accusations. Some people are excited for a handful of new cosmetics, which im totally ok with - at least that is SOMETHING, but when i see people stating they are really excited for the future of wow because some guy was fired for having wandering hands, i just scratch me head.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What question? What on earth are you talking about? You asked "how do you know?" how do i know WHAT? I made NO claim in the post you quoted, and that was EXACTLY the issue I had with the poster i replied to.
    Ok im done going back and forth with you, entertaining your attempt to derail the thread. If you don't understand the question I said earlier, then you aren't going to get it now. Lets just agree to disagree bud.

    On the topic of optimism, regardless of intent, the changes to the game in 9.1.5 are good changes (for the most part). Im excited to know when the patch is going to drop.

    I have my bet on Oct 5th!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nope, not at all. Played this shit for 16 years and seen it going downhill for a long time because developers who hate their playerbase make arbitrary decisions to increase engagement metrics instead of making the game better. Retail is dead and classic will be after wrath.
    What do you enjoy about the current game? Do you like raiding, dungeons? What would be something you would like to engage in, in the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thes View Post
    Well they're addressing issues and gripes I and probably hundreds if not thousands others pointed out to them. Now it's really up to them to keep it that way and not screw it up again when 10.0 hits.
    Fair points.

    I don't agree that they "screwed [things] up", they just didn't agree with the vocal minority yelling on the forums and in youtube videos. After experience with the game and how things turned out, they realize the misjudgment in design and are now making changes for the better.

    People like Bellular just serve to stoak negative flames that seem to pervade all aspects of the community, which is 100% toxic. When you give anyone with the ability to breathe an outlet to fan those flames, you get faux outrage that we have seen recently. We could definitely do without the Bellulars of the world in the WoW community.. thats for sure.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Incorrect, incomplete and totally unverifiable data used to support shitty opinions about the "game dying" is what upsets me. I don't care if you feel like the game's dying but don't flaunt that shitty fucking video around like it's irrefutable proof of anything.
    Could you be anymore bias than you are right now?

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post

    Fair points.

    I don't agree that they "screwed [things] up", they just didn't agree with the vocal minority yelling on the forums and in youtube videos. After experience with the game and how things turned out, they realize the misjudgment in design and are now making changes for the better.
    But you don't know that, you are assuming. The reason for a lot of the anger is the lack of communication of their vision and plans. There has been no acknowledgement of misjudgements on the contrary they defended them.

    Let's also be clear shadowlands didn't just come out. These issues have been known for months.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What an absolutely rediculous thing to say - seriously, no person can genuinely think that is how ANY of this works. So by your logic, if a boss is seen physically assaulting a staff member, no one can demand they be removed from the company without first identifying a replacement? Holy shit.......it blows my mind that anyone would think this is a logical thought process.

    I do think that its actually WORSE for a gamer to claim they have the solutions to problems in game, rather than just explaining what they dont like and why. We are not game devs, they are. This is obviously not helped by terrible feedback: "game bad, make good!" but it is helped greatly by good feedback like "I dont enjoy these new talents because they speed the class up way too much and it was traditionally a slower spec".

    Its the same with staff - i dont really think its anyones place to say who should go from a game design perspective, but there are plenty of OTHER reasons for a staff member to be removed, and for the paying customers to request that person be removed from their position - and the "recent" events at Blizzard are a prime example of this.
    Absolutely. Any decent game designer would tell you the same. I believe there's even a semi famous quote that goes something like "players are good at finding problems, not solutions".

    A good game designer should be able to analyze the feedback and give players what they need, not necessarily what they want.
    For example if players want solo queue, the correct action may not be to give them solo queue but to fix the issue that is causing them to want solo queue. Now I'm not a PvP:er so I have no idea why players want solo queue, I just used it as an example.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    But you don't know that, you are assuming. The reason for a lot of the anger is the lack of communication of their vision and plans. There has been no acknowledgement of misjudgements on the contrary they defended them.

    Let's also be clear shadowlands didn't just come out. These issues have been known for months.
    What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

    Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?

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