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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Absolutely. Any decent game designer would tell you the same. I believe there's even a semi famous quote that goes something like "players are good at finding problems, not solutions".

    A good game designer should be able to analyze the feedback and give players what they need, not necessarily what they want.
    For example if players want solo queue, the correct action may not be to give them solo queue but to fix the issue that is causing them to want solo queue. Now I'm not a PvP:er so I have no idea why players want solo queue, I just used it as an example.
    EXACTLY. And using your example, the best solution might not be to add solo queue rated content, but rather to ask "why are these people not feel satisfied with the solo queue content / rewards, and how can we make that content more engaging for them". The solution might not be what the players are expecting, but so long as it fixes the "problem" they have, then its a win/win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #422
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What an absolutely rediculous thing to say - seriously, no person can genuinely think that is how ANY of this works. So by your logic, if a boss is seen physically assaulting a staff member, no one can demand they be removed from the company without first identifying a replacement? Holy shit.......it blows my mind that anyone would think this is a logical thought process.

    I do think that its actually WORSE for a gamer to claim they have the solutions to problems in game, rather than just explaining what they dont like and why. We are not game devs, they are. This is obviously not helped by terrible feedback: "game bad, make good!" but it is helped greatly by good feedback like "I dont enjoy these new talents because they speed the class up way too much and it was traditionally a slower spec".

    Its the same with staff - i dont really think its anyones place to say who should go from a game design perspective, but there are plenty of OTHER reasons for a staff member to be removed, and for the paying customers to request that person be removed from their position - and the "recent" events at Blizzard are a prime example of this.
    I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Ok im done going back and forth with you, entertaining your attempt to derail the thread. If you don't understand the question I said earlier, then you aren't going to get it now. Lets just agree to disagree bud.

    On the topic of optimism, regardless of intent, the changes to the game in 9.1.5 are good changes (for the most part). Im excited to know when the patch is going to drop.

    I have my bet on Oct 5th!
    Derail the thread? What are you talking about? You asked if people are optimistic or not, and some people are not. They are even going so far as to explain WHY they are not optimistic, and you are automatically saying that is pessimistic, which is disingenuous at best.

    Many have mentioned it; you are extremely defensive and aggressive towards people not supporting your narrative, and throw around insults and accusations left right and centre – its clear you didn’t want an open discussion, but rather validation of your opinion – many users have said the same thing. If anything, you are derailing your own thread with your aggressive tone and responses to people who don’t agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

    Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?
    Have you because you are now contradicting your narrative about misjudgements? You just agreed with me.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.
    Sadly at some point it's the only thing you can do. If the product you're using (and for some people even being dependant on to be honest) is steadily getting worse and worse, the company repeats the same mistakes over and over again and years of feedback from yourself and other customers seem to fall on deaf ears you either abandon the product or ask for the man in charge to be replaced with someone better suited for the job.
    At the moment it seems that the WoW playerbase is doing both of these things. When your customers stop asking for improvements and start moving over to your competitors you've already gone past the point where it's time to start worrying. The snowball is no longer rolling and gaining momentum, it has gone off a cliff and is in free fall.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Derail the thread? What are you talking about? You asked if people are optimistic or not, and some people are not. They are even going so far as to explain WHY they are not optimistic, and you are automatically saying that is pessimistic, which is disingenuous at best.

    Many have mentioned it; you are extremely defensive and aggressive towards people not supporting your narrative, and throw around insults and accusations left right and centre – its clear you didn’t want an open discussion, but rather validation of your opinion – many users have said the same thing. If anything, you are derailing your own thread with your aggressive tone and responses to people who don’t agree with you.
    No problem bud! Its okay to feel the way you do, but its also alright that I feel the way I do. I appreciate your input on the matter. I really don't have any narrative other than to be optimistic about the future of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Have you because you are now contradicting your narrative about misjudgements? You just agreed with me.
    Yeah absolutely, we can agree on some things, and disagree on others bud!

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.
    If a sports team is constantly failing, its typical to say the head coach needs to go - and it regularly happens. What you are saying is the fans have no right to ask for the head coach to be removed unless they know who should replace them. Unless your comment was very specific about this exact issue, this exact scenario, and these exact individuals, then i totally disagree with you. And to be fair, even if it was about one specific comment about one specific dev needing to go, i STILL dont agree with the idea that you need to name their replacement.

    I have also said more than once in this thread alone that i do NOT think blaming a dev is productive or useful to anyone (you must have missed that) - but to suggest that you cannot ask for someone to be removed from a position without first saying who should replace them makes no sense at all, and is not grounded in reality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    No problem bud! Its okay to feel the way you do, but its also alright that I feel the way I do. I appreciate your input on the matter. I really don't have any narrative other than to be optimistic about the future of the game.
    Tell me - how do I feel?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

    Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?
    Doesnt this contradict the idea that the devs are listening and making positive changes? If they didn’t make the change because of feedback, then they are still not listening….
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #428
    I don't understand why people that actually seem to hate wow, and state they've not played in a long time, continue spewing their disdain on a daily basis on mmo-c or similar online forums.

    Whenever a game stops entertaining me, i stop playing it and thinking about it. If something new happens to it (a big change, a patch, an expansion) and i find it interesting, i'll check back.

    I don't linger on its message boards trying to convince everyone it's a shit game, or a dead game, or what not.

    Guess i'm the odd one.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I don't understand why people that actually seem to hate wow, and state they've not played in a long time, continue spewing their disdain on a daily basis on mmo-c or similar online forums.

    Whenever a game stops entertaining me, i stop playing it and thinking about it. If something new happens to it (a big change, a patch, an expansion) and i find it interesting, i'll check back.

    I don't linger on its message boards trying to convince everyone it's a shit game, or a dead game, or what not.

    Guess i'm the odd one.
    Is anyone trying to convince others its a shit game? or just stating their opinion in a thread asking for their opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post

    Tell me - how do I feel?
    How DO you feel? This is fun going in circles bud!

    Doesnt this contradict the idea that the devs are listening and making positive changes? If they didn’t make the change because of feedback, then they are still not listening….
    If your assumption is that they make changes solely on player feedback, then you'd be right, i'd be contradicting myself. But thankfully they don't. They certainly incorporate player feedback into the changes they make. In some instances they flat out disagree with the community, to which i'm thankful for because the game would be terrible if it was the case. In other instances (to which they indicated in their 9.1.5 post) they agree with player feedback and the change is made PARTLY because of that feedback. It is also partly because of the experience of having it in the game and it not working out exactly like they thought it would.

    You really like going through next level mental gymnastics to try to prove a point or win an argument when i'm not asking for people to disprove me or counter any of my arguments. Again, i'm really not making any points or arguments, im simply stating that i'm optimistic and stating why i'm optimistic about the future of the game.

    How is this hard to understand for you?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    How DO you feel? This is fun going in circles bud!



    If your assumption is that they make changes solely on player feedback, then you'd be right, i'd be contradicting myself. But thankfully they don't. They certainly incorporate player feedback into the changes they make. In some instances they flat out disagree with the community, to which i'm thankful for because the game would be terrible if it was the case. In other instances (to which they indicated in their 9.1.5 post) they agree with player feedback and the change is made PARTLY because of that feedback. It is also partly because of the experience of having it in the game and it not working out exactly like they thought it would.

    You really like going through next level mental gymnastics to try to prove a point or win an argument when i'm not asking for people to disprove me or counter any of my arguments. Again, i'm really not making any points or arguments, im simply stating that i'm optimistic and stating why i'm optimistic about the future of the game.

    How is this hard to understand for you?
    So which is it? Because of the community, "PARTLY" because of the community, or what you said literally a few posts ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.
    People dont generally "ask" for their points to be countered or disproven, so im really not sure what this is supposed to mean? And to be completely honest, you kind of did ask for varied and potentially conflicting point of views when you asked for players opinions on the direction of the game.

    The italic part kind of makes it sound like you really did just want everyone to agree with you, but thats not what you OP asked for.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-09-15 at 03:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So which is it? Because of the community, "PARTLY" because of the community, or what you said literally a few posts ago:
    Can you read? The ripcord issue is 1 issue. There are many changes being made in 9.1.5. I just said they incorporate player feedback about issues, but not that particular issue. They clearly stated it was because it made sense in the context of the story.

    I'm really done going in circles with you, if you can't accept that, then all good. Its been fun chatting with you though bud.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I don't understand why people that actually seem to hate wow
    To address this first, no one in this thread has stated they hate WoW. In fact, many of us have gone out of our way to explain that we really care about WoW and have had great times in it over the years and long for it to be fun like that for us again. This constant insistence that anyone that doesn't think everything with WoW is just peachy and rosy must "hate WoW" is more indicative of the fragility of the accusers feelings towards WoW.

    and state they've not played in a long time, continue spewing their disdain on a daily basis on mmo-c or similar online forums.
    And, again, there's been no "disdain" in this thread. Just some people expressing their disappointment or things they'd like to see.

    Whenever a game stops entertaining me, i stop playing it and thinking about it. If something new happens to it (a big change, a patch, an expansion) and i find it interesting, i'll check back.
    Well, good news! Big changes and a patch are happening to WoW! So maybe you shouldn't be so surprised that people are talking about it. Plus, as I've already mentioned in this thread, WoW is the juggernaut of MMOs and what happens with it is of at least some interest to pretty much everyone that takes an interest in MMOs in general. No one talks about STO here because it's a small MMO that has pretty much zero impact on the MMO genre.

    I don't linger on its message boards trying to convince everyone it's a shit game, or a dead game, or what not.
    No one has tried to convince anyone in this thread that WoW is a "shit game" nor a "dead game", simply that there are problems both with the game and with a dwindling player base, that should be addressed by the company.

    Guess i'm the odd one.
    Faux consternation fools no one.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Derail the thread? What are you talking about? You asked if people are optimistic or not, and some people are not. They are even going so far as to explain WHY they are not optimistic, and you are automatically saying that is pessimistic, which is disingenuous at best.

    Many have mentioned it; you are extremely defensive and aggressive towards people not supporting your narrative, and throw around insults and accusations left right and centre – its clear you didn’t want an open discussion, but rather validation of your opinion – many users have said the same thing. If anything, you are derailing your own thread with your aggressive tone and responses to people who don’t agree with you.
    very well said.

    i still try to figure out what OP is trying to do here. what the real thing is, he wanna get out of it. from a rational point of view there is nothing to win, regardless what the opinion is about Blizz, WoW, future, etc.

    just look at the 2 extremes:

    - whole thread is full of posts saying he is totally right and they have same opinion. and then? whats the profit for OP ?
    - whole thread is full of posts that disagree with him and they bashing each other. and then? whats the profit for OP ?

    if you wanna find confirmation, you will not get it in an internet forum.
    if you wanna convince ppl about a video game opinion, you will just find „taste differs“.

    so, i dont really get OPs motives behind all that. i dont really get it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I don't understand why people that actually seem to hate wow, and state they've not played in a long time, continue spewing their disdain on a daily basis on mmo-c or similar online forums.

    Whenever a game stops entertaining me, i stop playing it and thinking about it. If something new happens to it (a big change, a patch, an expansion) and i find it interesting, i'll check back.

    I don't linger on its message boards trying to convince everyone it's a shit game, or a dead game, or what not.

    Guess i'm the odd one.
    the simple fact is: reality and truth are not that simple, like you wanna make it look here.

    90% of the ppl that you call „ppl that hate wow“ are ppl playing the game for long and literally loved it. and they still love aspects of it, but its more and more difficult to love it, because many aspects of it changed to another direction (they not like). the keyword here is „many“. not all. many. and this means they are disapointed and still wanna keep the good aspects of wow and telling blizz to stop going further in a direction of their beloved game, they do not like. its not they cant let it go. they dont want to let it go, because its not completely shit, in every aspect. but they are driven more and more away from their beloved hobby, and that sucks, and thats why they complain. its as natural and obvious as going poop.

    its the same with a girl friend. you dont go „click“ and now you instantly hate everything on her. there are always aspects you like and also things, going in the „wrong“ direction (from your point of view). you dont go „i hate you now“. but you are more and more pissed about some aspects you dont like, combined in a person you wanna like and liked in the past.

    so, plz, dont act like that stupid little timmy going „why complaining?, if you dont like it, dont play it“. things are NEVER that simple and things NEVER happen that way…
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-09-15 at 06:35 AM.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    very well said.

    i still try to figure out what OP is trying to do here. what the real thing is, he wanna get out of it. from a rational point of view there is nothing to win, regardless what the opinion is about Blizz, WoW, future, etc.
    He's trying to say, "it's okay now, you can all come back, Blizzard has changed I swear".

    The mass exodus probably hit him very hard and he wants, no need people to come back to the game because he himself is incapable of leaving.

    You can see it very clearly, he's agreeing with everyone who has something positive to say while brushing off everyone negative as someone who quit years ago but who can't let go and come here out of hate.
    It's a pretty basic tactic when you want to paint a prettier picture, you make sure that every one knows that everything ugly isn't actually part of the picture.

    This is a "please come back" thread, not a back and forth. It's blind fanboyism, not a nuanced discussion.

  16. #436
    What I see now is not much more than emergency expansion salvage operation. Some exec in the HQ, seeing the performance last few months, slammed their hand on the table and yelled "just give them fucking everything we can now".

    I'd be wary of being overly optimistic at that - I first need to see what will happen next expansion and whether we will keep having this Blizz', lets call it, "attitude" that brought up this crisis to begin with. I'd be more positive about the whole thing if not their blue post rationalizing launch restrictions, it sounded to me like they still think that what they did was the right way to do it and that's a suspect right there.

    Over the last few years we had more than plenty declarations about lessons learned or about making things clearer and better, only to often them do 180 on that, and sometimes the next patch (ilvl matters -> corruptions, as example).

    The changes are positive, but I just can't get rid of this suspicion that decision makers there still think they did things right with all the restrictions at launch and that is what matters, not some gestures they toss at us in minor patch.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-09-15 at 07:28 AM.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  17. #437
    I just reinstalled. +1 sub later when I muster up the mental energy to sit and reconfigure bartender, unit frames, etc.

  18. #438
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    My point was that if everyone is so smart about who should be fired they should also be smart enough to say who should replace them.
    Is not a valid point because i do not work with game developers, they do, they know names of people who work in that department, i can only say from what i know, and i know the current team, or at least the lead, is awful. We can see the current job is bad without knowing who should replace then. I could say someone like Metzen or the other guy that is in heartstone now, but id on't know how they are doing or if they will even want the job.

    But for all mean, i could replace Danuseur, easily.

  19. #439

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    EXACTLY. And using your example, the best solution might not be to add solo queue rated content, but rather to ask "why are these people not feel satisfied with the solo queue content / rewards, and how can we make that content more engaging for them". The solution might not be what the players are expecting, but so long as it fixes the "problem" they have, then its a win/win.
    I think this is a great example why this design philosophy has flaws. People are different.
    Imagine you have 5 players.
    - Player one has his RL friends play with him. They go online together after school or work and do everything together. He doesn't solo anything because he doesn't have the need for it.
    - Player two has a big, active and open guild. If she asks "Hey anyone want to do XYZ" she always finds enough members to do it. She also doesn't want to or needs to solo anything.
    - Player three is in a family guild for years. Many of the guildmembers has become his friends but due to changing life-situations people are playing less and in different timeframes so there are rarely enough people online to do stuff most of the time. So he has to do stuff solo most of the times.
    - Player four has been in several guilds and has made bad experiences with all of them. She doesn't want to be in a guild anymore and has to do everything solo.
    - Player five is a bit anti-social, he doesn't want to be forced to do anything or play at certain times and doesn't join a guild because he feels he'd be pressured to do so. He also isn't interested in making friends online.

    So please, how is the dev solving the "problem" of solo players for all of them?
    Forcing them all into guilds? Player three doesn't want to leave his friends and players four and five have no interest in joining (another) guild.
    Hoping they find friends in forced grouping? Due to the current playstyle there is no time to actually talk with people in instances and most efficient players are usually of type one or two and have no special interest in playing with the one random they needed to fill their group in the future.

    I mean, Blizz tried time and time again and failed every time with this task. They constantly force people into groups only to go back on that later for whatever reason. Maybe it would be a better solution in some cases to give the players what they want instead of "designing" a solution that the designer sees as favourable. Maybe not every time but when it is reasonable.

    It's pretty clear that the Blizz Designers create something that they want to play. Not nessecarily something that their customers want to play. That is not always a good way to do business.

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