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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    My point was that if everyone is so smart about who should be fired they should also be smart enough to say who should replace them.
    Its easier to tell dude who lost drivers license shouldn't drive the school bus anymore than figure out which driver is the best. And to make it worse wow is too unique to correlate well with any standardized testing. A really smart guy probably will do better than a dropout but there is no testing for good game design.

  2. #442
    I'm not currently playing the game and i don't plan to at least until the next expansion. It's not a matter of how good or bad the patch looks, it's a matter of trust.

    It's a pattern that keeps happening expansion after expansion: they create a problem just so that they can sell the solution later. The first time you fall for it, because hey, they are listening!, right? But it happens again... and again. So at some point you need to have some self-respect and just move on.

    So no, i'm not optimistic about WoW, because this patch is just regluar business with them.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Its easier to tell dude who lost drivers license shouldn't drive the school bus anymore than figure out which driver is the best. And to make it worse wow is too unique to correlate well with any standardized testing. A really smart guy probably will do better than a dropout but there is no testing for good game design.
    True. We don't work there so we don't know who they have who could be a good fit.
    If they have to hire from outside the company we definitely have no idea. Sure we could say a name like Todd Howard or Yoshi-P but that's not realistic. We have no way of knowing what talent is out there and would be willing to change jobs.
    We can only judge the current leader and see that he's doing a bad job. It's Blizzard who has to find a replacement assuming that they agree with us which I doubt that they do.

    It's very unreasonable to expect the customer to solve staffing issues. If I go to Wendy's and I'm treated like shit I can demand that their employee be fired but it's not my responsibility to find a suitable replacement. I just want to know that the next time I go there that that employee will be gone and someone competent will greet me in their place otherwise I'll go to a different restaurant.

  4. #444
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Its easier to tell dude who lost drivers license shouldn't drive the school bus anymore than figure out which driver is the best. And to make it worse wow is too unique to correlate well with any standardized testing. A really smart guy probably will do better than a dropout but there is no testing for good game design.
    "Good game design" is in the eyes of the beholder/player. I dislike the systems that are being created for WoW as much as anyone and have said so. That said, MMO's are grindy beasts, nearly all of them and complaining about grinds in MMO's is pointless. It's not so much the fact that there's a grind but there are good and bad examples to be found. What bothers me most about the game as it now sits is the lack of transparency.

    My primary issue with calls for anyone to be fired is that the forum crowd is a guided missile not pointed at whoever is responsible for things but at whoever is doing the communicating. GC, then community managers until Ion took over communications chores. Tom Chilton was game director for years and during some of WoW's most difficult times (Cataclysm being the best example) but who got the blame? The guy doing the talking at the time: Greg Street. And that's the main reason why I consider calls to fire anyone at Blizzard BS. Guaranteed: If Ion turned over the responsibilities for talking to players to someone else it would only take a few months before that someone else needed to be fired. That's just BS.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  5. #445
    Blizzard is virtue signaling IN their game.

    Its one of the worst things a fantasy game maker can do. Literally limitting the stories you are going to tell because they have to conform to specific rabid emerging cultures on social media platforms.

    Any and all evidence shows that pandering to this group of people is bad for business. Hopefully Blizzard will see that soon enough

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What I see now is not much more than emergency expansion salvage operation. Some exec in the HQ, seeing the performance last few months, slammed their hand on the table and yelled "just give them fucking everything we can now".

    I'd be wary of being overly optimistic at that - I first need to see what will happen next expansion and whether we will keep having this Blizz', lets call it, "attitude" that brought up this crisis to begin with. I'd be more positive about the whole thing if not their blue post rationalizing launch restrictions, it sounded to me like they still think that what they did was the right way to do it and that's a suspect right there.

    Over the last few years we had more than plenty declarations about lessons learned or about making things clearer and better, only to often them do 180 on that, and sometimes the next patch (ilvl matters -> corruptions, as example).

    The changes are positive, but I just can't get rid of this suspicion that decision makers there still think they did things right with all the restrictions at launch and that is what matters, not some gestures they toss at us in minor patch.

    This is my thinking. 100% agree with you. This is nothing more then giving players what they want cause the MAU's are sucking ass for them right now. I agree they still feel they were right in how they launched the game, and they still think it was ok in how they did things in the game from the beginning. So nothing about these changes make me optimistic. Only when the game is borderline to dying will I think Blizzard has changed, and only then, to listening to what the player base wants. Until then Blizzard will continue to make these grindy shitty systems.
    People on this thread only get pissed at you when you don't agree with them...FACT

  7. #447
    1. Create shitty systems that players hate,ignore feedback for over a year.
    2. Fix shitty systems way later after massive player leave the game
    3. some players come back and play with the new fixed system
    4. rinse and repeat next expansion with a new shitty system

    it's a never ending cycle with the current wow team

    just don't know at this point,a patch like 9.1 is not going to bring player back,they need to do something big ,fingercross for 10.0 -_-

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Kind of disingenuous post don't you think? They even told us the reason why the "ripcord" has been pulled because it makes sense in the context of the story so far, not because of some player outrage that only affected the hardcore raiders.

    Personally I really liked the rigid choice of covenant. It committed you to a cause, and made you feel like you were a part of something and that leaving had consequences. But i'm also glad they are easing up on those restrictions because it makes sense now to do so.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This seems like streamer talking points to me.

    Why does the vocal minority always listen to those dbag streamers / content creators? Can you not make up your mind for yourselves?

    At this point, the only objective and non-biased streamers / content creators are Taliesen & Evital.
    I don't watch any streamers, but if they're saying it that works for me

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    "Good game design" is in the eyes of the beholder/player. I dislike the systems that are being created for WoW as much as anyone and have said so. That said, MMO's are grindy beasts, nearly all of them and complaining about grinds in MMO's is pointless. It's not so much the fact that there's a grind but there are good and bad examples to be found. What bothers me most about the game as it now sits is the lack of transparency.

    My primary issue with calls for anyone to be fired is that the forum crowd is a guided missile not pointed at whoever is responsible for things but at whoever is doing the communicating. GC, then community managers until Ion took over communications chores. Tom Chilton was game director for years and during some of WoW's most difficult times (Cataclysm being the best example) but who got the blame? The guy doing the talking at the time: Greg Street. And that's the main reason why I consider calls to fire anyone at Blizzard BS. Guaranteed: If Ion turned over the responsibilities for talking to players to someone else it would only take a few months before that someone else needed to be fired. That's just BS.
    Meant game design from company perspective. For the company is simple - good game design means more income. Be it through player retention or better monetization. The problem is its hard to isolate decisions from other causes since there is no test enviroment where you could compare to alternative choices. As for targeting specific devs i remember one instance where it was self-inflicted. A few xpacs back on blizzcon some fans got a dev drunk on camera admitting they dont give a crap about pvp balance and fuck those pvp players anyway they dont matter, they just design for raids. Got shared back then on arenajunkies and naturally incurred wrath.

  10. #450
    I honestly wonder if the borrowed power (I kind of hate the term now) systems and such they keep introducing in a broken state only to fix later when the damage is mostly done really boost engagement significantly enough for this sort of bad PR to be worth it in the end. Maybe they're popular in China or something? It's really baffling to me how they've keep trying to make it work since Legion now and haven't gotten it right a single time.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    "Good game design" is in the eyes of the beholder/player. I dislike the systems that are being created for WoW as much as anyone and have said so. That said, MMO's are grindy beasts, nearly all of them and complaining about grinds in MMO's is pointless. It's not so much the fact that there's a grind but there are good and bad examples to be found. What bothers me most about the game as it now sits is the lack of transparency.

    My primary issue with calls for anyone to be fired is that the forum crowd is a guided missile not pointed at whoever is responsible for things but at whoever is doing the communicating. GC, then community managers until Ion took over communications chores. Tom Chilton was game director for years and during some of WoW's most difficult times (Cataclysm being the best example) but who got the blame? The guy doing the talking at the time: Greg Street. And that's the main reason why I consider calls to fire anyone at Blizzard BS. Guaranteed: If Ion turned over the responsibilities for talking to players to someone else it would only take a few months before that someone else needed to be fired. That's just BS.
    I can understand that to an extent. I just think we hit the point where the majority of the players base would be happier without any systems being designed for the game. The level of trust with blizzard is so low that beyond mage tower i don't really think players want to see ANY kind of content being made outside of raids and dungeons.

    Sadly they have good reason to want this. Whenever blizzard makes anything even story quests they instinctively are compelled to make it a mandatory part of the progression path. It leads to a nasty situation where players actively distrust anything the company does and long for it to be trimmed back rather then expanded upon.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

    Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?
    And that point in the story just so happens to be the moment people were leaving the game in droves. How convenient.

    That's because no amount of forum crying will change anything. The moment people voted with their wallets they suddenly were all about listening to the "community".

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    And that point in the story just so happens to be the moment people were leaving the game in droves. How convenient.

    That's because no amount of forum crying will change anything. The moment people voted with their wallets they suddenly were all about listening to the "community".
    Dont mistake listening with doing, they do listen, they dont care/arent allowed to do.

    It has been said hundred of times before and people still dont get it, yes these systems are atrocious after a bit and people finally woke up, yes they are atrocious if you want to play WoW exclusively when its no longer a game to do so cause everything is made/sped up.

    But these systems produce the most $ no matter if you guys scream "Vote with wallets", and it shows that despite the decline they are still making equal if not more money.

    As i have personally said so many times before, making it harder for expansion hoppers to unsub, seems to be their business practise and not to keep long term players that want to play 10 alts at the same time.

    Personally, i hated Legion, making me log on daily to farm AP, while before i could go hard for a week and raid log, and i love SL for this very reason, the "mandatory" shit are literally 2hr/week, and it becomes 1hr/week if you stop doing Torghast after the first few weeks.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-09-15 at 01:50 PM.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Really? You're complaining and calling a moderator because you disagree with me? K.

    Bellular is a complete dbag tool "game developer" who feeds off whatever the way the wind is blowing. It doesn't matter to him, if the vocal minority is upset with the game, he creates Blizzard hate videos and profits off them. If players are really enjoying the game, he makes videos showcasing how fun the game is and profits off them.

    In any case, yes I choose to be optimistic about the game that I have loved and enjoyed for many years. I don't always agree or like some of the decisions the developers make, but generally the game is fun, and I enjoy playing. I'm not going to pay to play a game that I don't enjoy, and I would hope you don't either.
    I am calling a moderator because you are a troll account, the entire thread is a troll bait, people already caught you above.

    Also even if i dont know bellular, he is technically more into the "how to game dev" than you and everybody else, even if he is not doing well at the moment plus you are strangely forgetting when bellular was a "shill" for blizzard pre BFA but since he got fed up with the bs from devs.

    °vocal minority° 3milions active char lost in 5 months mhh mhh

  15. #455
    I would too, but my guild is kinda not logging anymore. Feels a bit like the end of an expansion.
    I'm also bitter because the vault gives me the same two items every week

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Dont mistake listening with doing, they do listen, they dont care/arent allowed to do.

    It has been said hundred of times before and people still dont get it, yes these systems are atrocious after a bit and people finally woke up, yes they are atrocious if you want to play WoW exclusively when its no longer a game to do so cause everything is made/sped up.

    But these systems produce the most $ no matter if you guys scream "Vote with wallets", and it shows that despite the decline they are still making equal if not more money.

    As i have personally said so many times before, making it harder for expansion hoppers to unsub, seems to be their business practise and not to keep long term players satisfied.

    Personally, i hated Legion, making me log on daily to farm AP, while before i could go hard for a week and raid log, and i love SL for this very reason, the "mandatory" shit are literally 2hr/week, and it becomes 1hr/week if you stop doing Torghast after the first few weeks.
    I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse people love to repeat. As if it wasn't obvious what really happened.

    As for subs some people disregard subs because they aren't the biggest source of revenue. They're right. Just don't forget that someone that isn't subscribed isn't buying cash shop items either. Eventually trying to crank up cash shop revenue by disregarding player commitment to the game will and already is biting them in the ass
    Last edited by tikcol; 2021-09-15 at 01:55 PM.

  17. #457
    You know a topic stirs strong feelings when the OP's quick 3 line comment/question about being optimistic about WoW's future turns into a 23 page thread.

    Despite the OP's optimism we're actually at a major low-point for WoW, pretty easily the lowest point ever since it's release. Wow was already slowing down quite a bit and feeling long in the tooth. But the impact from the longtime widespread sexual harassment at Blizzard had already caused some leading staff to leave before the story and legal case went public. Then the atrocious response was kind of a nail in the coffin. Very large numbers of players have said they cannot in good conscious financially support WoW anymore after what Blizzard did. Those players have moved onto other games now like FF, New World, etc. and aren't coming back. So this isn't just typical mid-expansion fatigue where everything will be back to usual in 10.0, this was something that has damaged the brand permanently and wow will never get back to it's big player numbers. Additionally, since the story broke quite a few more leading staff at Blizzard have been fired or resigned. So on top of everything else, Blizzard has also lost a lot of the core talent that helped create wow which won't easily be replaced particularly in today's job market. I doubt Blizzard will get the number of resumes they used to either to backfill them, many skilled people that would have considered working for them (or even thought of it as a dream job) will pass now.

    It doesn't mean necessarily that wow will 'die'. Blizzard could wind down new development, cut to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers pretty cheaply. The server costs would be far less than they'd continue to get in monthly sub revenue from the remaining hardcore players. But if Blizzard has any competent management left they'll realize the golden goose is probably cooked and it's finally time to get serious about what's next, whether that's a totally new IP in the mmo space or Wow 2.0. The brand has been damaged so badly that it might take even changing the name Blizzard, and they are going to need to do a big reset and show a much different tone on treatment of employees before their next big release. If Blizzcon was happening this year on it's normal schedule it would be a ghost town and would deliver the customer angst message more directly, so hopefully the absence of that doesn't cause Blizzard to fail to realize the seriousness of the situation. This event and the horrible response doubling-down on the bad is how successful corporations end up as empty offices with a For Lease sign out front.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse people love to repeat. As if it wasn't obvious what really happened.

    As for subs some people disregard subs because they aren't the biggest source of revenue. They're right. Just don't forget that someone that isn't subscribed isn't buying cash shop items either. Eventually trying to crank up cash shop revenue by disregarding player commitment to the game will and already is biting them in the ass
    You are both right and wrong.

    As i said, expansion hoppers are subs also, but they are more important because the now 35 year old dad with higher income that he can spend, thats gonna buy Expansion +Sub +Sub second month + a few tokens because he cant be active, and boosts work for him despite the hate for them.

    Versus , expansion+6 month sub and thats it.

    And as i have said before and Blizzard has also, the number of coming and going players is much higher than permanently active players, therefor they are more important.

    At least thats what i have seen/the design of the game seems to support.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse

    This is the best part imho because if you look at WoW competitor like FF14 the "devs attitude" towards failure is opposite, surely both companies arent there to make games for free but Yoshi-P and co attitude regarding their false step is probably the main reason about wow devs detachment from reality-player base.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You are both right and wrong.

    As i said, expansion hoppers are subs also, but they are more important because the now 35 year old dad with higher income that he can spend, thats gonna buy Expansion +Sub +Sub second month + a few tokens because he cant be active, and boosts work for him despite the hate for them.

    Versus , expansion+6 month sub and thats it.

    And as i have said before and Blizzard has also, the number of coming and going players is much higher than permanently active players, therefor they are more important.

    At least thats what i have seen/the design of the game seems to support.
    But a 35y old dad, supposed to have enough money to spend for wow, will just quit the game in 2 months if he doesnt have enough free time to play it, is just a short squeeze of his money while ATVI is looking to make him logging at least once per month to show "inflated" numbers as MAU to the shareholders.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    You know a topic stirs strong feelings when the OP's quick 3 line comment/question about being optimistic about WoW's future turns into a 23 page thread.

    Despite the OP's optimism we're actually at a major low-point for WoW, pretty easily the lowest point ever since it's release. Wow was already slowing down quite a bit and feeling long in the tooth. But the impact from the longtime widespread sexual harassment at Blizzard had already caused some leading staff to leave before the story and legal case went public. Then the atrocious response was kind of a nail in the coffin. Very large numbers of players have said they cannot in good conscious financially support WoW anymore after what Blizzard did. Those players have moved onto other games now like FF, New World, etc. and aren't coming back. So this isn't just typical mid-expansion fatigue where everything will be back to usual in 10.0, this was something that has damaged the brand permanently and wow will never get back to it's big player numbers. Additionally, since the story broke quite a few more leading staff at Blizzard have been fired or resigned. So on top of everything else, Blizzard has also lost a lot of the core talent that helped create wow which won't easily be replaced particularly in today's job market. I doubt Blizzard will get the number of resumes they used to either to backfill them, many skilled people that would have considered working for them (or even thought of it as a dream job) will pass now.

    It doesn't mean necessarily that wow will 'die'. Blizzard could wind down new development, cut to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers pretty cheaply. The server costs would be far less than they'd continue to get in monthly sub revenue from the remaining hardcore players. But if Blizzard has any competent management left they'll realize the golden goose is probably cooked and it's finally time to get serious about what's next, whether that's a totally new IP in the mmo space or Wow 2.0. The brand has been damaged so badly that it might take even changing the name Blizzard, and they are going to need to do a big reset and show a much different tone on treatment of employees before their next big release. If Blizzcon was happening this year on it's normal schedule it would be a ghost town and would deliver the customer angst message more directly, so hopefully the absence of that doesn't cause Blizzard to fail to realize the seriousness of the situation. This event and the horrible response doubling-down on the bad is how successful corporations end up as empty offices with a For Lease sign out front.
    I disagree with you and your sentiment.

    All companies face legal issues at one point or another. For the most part, the majority of the staff at Blizzard (99.99%) of them are good people who didn't engage in any sort of sexual harassment. You shouldn't cast shade at all the employees / the entire company because of a few bad eggs. Furthermore, at this point everything is alleged, not proven in a court of law. So if we are to have faith in our legal system, they are innocent until proven guilty. This is what I don't like about allegations, they serve very little purpose and in some (many) cases prove to be false allegations. I am not saying the allegations brought against the few employees there are false, im just saying lets wait until we know more when the case goes to trial or is settled.

    That being said, your doom and gloom hit piece on "cutting WoW to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers cheaply" is just another veiled attempt at bashing Blizzard and WoW. WoW is doing much better than you think. The official investor report contradicts everything you said basically.

    Also its the summer, the pandemic is ending, people are going out and doing other things than playing video games. User metrics are down across the industry right now. Lastly, and I know this is anecdotal but I log in and I see people everywhere on my servers. Both are "Full" pop servers, and I look at the server list and I see the usual Full / High / Medium population servers just like its been for years. So yeah, I think you and the other "wow is dead / dying" guys are just flat out wrong, which is another reason to be optimistic. Seeing many servers with high / full population and players everywhere is a good sign. When 9.1.5 comes out, it will get an influx of a lot more players, and obviously when 9.2 comes out, many many more.

    WoW is far from dying / dead, and thats positive news.

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