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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    I played when the dev decision to minimize talent trees was made due to complexity, difficulty for new players to get started, and fluff talents being useless; and continued to play as they began to introduce the most complex, convoluted and cumbersome systems ever seen in the history of the game.
    Yes this is truly baffling. Talent trees, reforging, colored gems, glyphs, badge gear, diverse and interesting enchants on most gear slots. All these things had to die in the name of simplicity, accessibility and streamlining and then they proceed to swap in and out the most overcomplicated systems and currencies we're ever seen.

    If you take a break from the game and come back you can forget about just picking up from where you left off, you now have to do a bunch of research in order to understand how the fuck the game works. Half of the things you knew are completely gone and a bunch of equally convoluted crap have taken their place and your class has most likely been overhauled so you have to relearn that too assuming it's still appealing to you after the changes.

    I bet that the appeal with TBC and Wrath for most people is just to be free of all that unecessary exhausting crap and just be able to play a game that's easy to understand, easy to play and where they can have fun with their friends.

  2. #582
    We'll see where this leads. In a way I want to be optimistic about WoW, but on the other hand I know those shortcuts are made to get WoW a good image fast before too much damage is done with all the recent events in Blizz history. Wait and see, but next expansion is what will decide of the fate of the game in my opinion.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    We'll see where this leads. In a way I want to be optimistic about WoW, but on the other hand I know those shortcuts are made to get WoW a good image fast before too much damage is done with all the recent events in Blizz history. Wait and see, but next expansion is what will decide of the fate of the game in my opinion.
    I'm wondering if the shortcuts are due to WoW having dipped below a level where a conversion to F2P, or even mobile, would be mandated by upper management.

    While I don't yet think it's the most likely scenario, I will not be too surprised if SL is the last expansion. And if there is a next expansion and it fails, I will be very surprised if there's an expansion after that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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    Get your COVID booster. It works so much better than horse paste.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    We'll see where this leads. In a way I want to be optimistic about WoW, but on the other hand I know those shortcuts are made to get WoW a good image fast before too much damage is done with all the recent events in Blizz history. Wait and see, but next expansion is what will decide of the fate of the game in my opinion.
    As I said if 9.1.5 is genuine and they're committed to introducing a good game again I'm down for taking a peek at 10.0

    If this is just a "we're sooooooo sorry" patch then noty.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    back to topic: quoted poster is 100% right.
    No, they're not. And it's extremely simple to see why.

    I mention the User Score, because is the real score based on the player base. Not payed critics.
    That's just flat out being bias. Review bombing is a thing. Kneejerk reviews out of hate happen.
    Yet to dismiss people's reviews on some claim that cannot be actually backed up or proven (That Blizzard paid for the review), while fully accepting the other flawed side as "proof" isn't a way to prove anything.

    Hell, even reading through most of the "negative" reviews on metacritic, it's pretty easy to spot that it's people who are far off the mark about the game in general.

  6. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I don't think a 9.2 with a new zone, a new raid, a new dungeon and some new story quests will bring many back. I don't think a 9.3 will either.
    New patches, raids, zones etc always brings players back even if it is only for a few months.
    An Karanir Thanagor

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Just like flying mounts in 9.1 did not suddenly make WoW this crazy new fantastic experience, the switching of covenants and grindable thorgast in 9.1.5 won't change much either.

    I don't think the reason you don't enjoy WoW has anything to do with these things.

    I don't think a 9.2 with a new zone, a new raid, a new dungeon and some new story quests will bring many back. I don't think a 9.3 will either.

    10.0 is the only real shot to make it popular again. And I think it needs to focus on making the game more social. More people talking to each other, in a friendly manner. For instance by making the guilds attractive to casuals.
    If there even is a 9.3. See them abandoning this like they did with WoD in the .2 patch personally.

  8. #588
    So Jaylock has been outted as posting on another one of his countless burner accounts…


    …what a time to be on MMO-C

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    So Jaylock has been outted as posting on another one of his countless burner accounts…


    …what a time to be on MMO-C
    LOL yeah. But he's still a boss of that company where he forced positivity right? Right??

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by aarro View Post
    New patches, raids, zones etc always brings players back even if it is only for a few months.
    I don't know if they will see the same results each time. I know a lot of raiders didn't comeback when conduits got carried over and a few are at least claiming they wont if they return for 9.2

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    All of your positive points about BfA are very arguable. I give you the good to very good raids, but that's about it. Azerite was hated from the start of the expansion til the end. It got slightly better with Essences and 8.2, but it was still a huge sh*t show.

    The zones? Some were liked, like Drustvar or Zandalar, yes. But some of the best? No, not really.

    M+? It was just Legion M+ but worse for most people.

    Island were fun? Uhm... maybe in 8.3 when they upped the rewards and reduced the amount of time it takes to finish them, but Islands definitely were not fun in 8.1 and 8.2 unless you liked infinite grinding of the same mobs and places for the same objective again and again and again.

    Warfronts were a fail from the launch of the expansion til the very end. That's why we only got two.

    The narrative of BfA was sh*t as well.

    BfA became tolerable with 8.2 and 8.3 when they fixed most of the horrible design ideas they brought into the game, got extenstive feedback for, but didn't really care in alpha, beta or the first year of BfA altogether. None of the points you listed above except the zones existed in the 8.0 version of BfA. Everything was patched into the game at a later point.

    So... there's a reason why people considered BfA to be the worst expansion of all time - until they released Shadowlands, which is very likely to take the crown now.
    Shadowlands redeemed BfA, i would kill to play either BfA, Cataclysm and even WoD if thats the price to get rid of SL. I can find fun in those games, even tho they are flawed. SL is just a boring slog i have little interest with. For instance its main feature Thorgast, is just there to show how Diablo does this much better.

    Story and Characters - never have i endured so much cringe in a RPG game..and i play since the late 80ies.

    PvP: World PvP is dead, while BfA had perhaps the biggest wpvp battles since wow existence, its that little extra without big rewards, but joy that makes a world feel alive.

    If anything, soon the factions will merge and the game becomes just "World of Craft"

    In short everything is cringe and disgusting in SL and its design direction, its impossible to continue to play it, i mean what is this? Final Fantasy XIV without the story?

    I wonder why this dev team of shadowlands can't do content in azeroth, a side story quest, a wpvp zone....anything. It could be done in TBC, how could such an old game kick SLs butt so hard? Arenas as a system were miles better as design than thorgast, even if some people hate this design, it had much more impact than a horrible done D3 greater rift. I get we have our original dev team replaced by D3 devs now.......but those people should do work on diablo games. Let wow just do classic servers and R.I.P. retail. The dev team is gone...no point continuing it. New blood should create new games.

    If anything SL showed that you better do not content that is disconnected with the rest of azeroth, it does feel wrong to be there, similar like WoD but worse, because WoD at least did not try to ruin the mythological part of the afterlife.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    No, they're not. And it's extremely simple to see why.



    That's just flat out being bias. Review bombing is a thing. Kneejerk reviews out of hate happen.
    Yet to dismiss people's reviews on some claim that cannot be actually backed up or proven (That Blizzard paid for the review), while fully accepting the other flawed side as "proof" isn't a way to prove anything.

    Hell, even reading through most of the "negative" reviews on metacritic, it's pretty easy to spot that it's people who are far off the mark about the game in general.
    i stopped to read positive and negative comments, at metacritic the yellow ones are the most fair ones and contain some good and constructive criticism. Yeah, user of course. The people that actually play the whole game and its content patches not just the beta of it.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2021-09-17 at 06:01 PM.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    i stopped to read positive and negative comments, at metacritic the yellow ones are the most fair ones and contain some good and constructive criticism. Yeah, user of course. The people that actually play the whole game and its content patches not just the beta of it.
    Weird how all the critic reviews come from after Nov. 23rd, the launch date then.

    https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/w...critic-reviews

    Some which didn't even come out until this year for reviews.

    And it doesn't matter if the yellow ones are the most fair, because look at the sheer nonsensical ratio of 0-3s that people gave while giving minor criticism, all which should be easily 5-6s if anything.
    It's easy to just keep scrolling and realize that they're giving low scores simply out of not realizing what should be in a range of 4-6, and thinking "OH, I DON'T LIKE, IT'S A 0".

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    No, they're not. And it's extremely simple to see why.



    That's just flat out being bias. Review bombing is a thing. Kneejerk reviews out of hate happen.
    Yet to dismiss people's reviews on some claim that cannot be actually backed up or proven (That Blizzard paid for the review), while fully accepting the other flawed side as "proof" isn't a way to prove anything.

    Hell, even reading through most of the "negative" reviews on metacritic, it's pretty easy to spot that it's people who are far off the mark about the game in general.
    i cant tell anything about quoted posters motivations (what you imply as „hate“). i just can tell what we, me, as working in this business for 20+ years, would do as damage control and that its obviously to ME, what happens. i speak for noone else than for ME. and what i think what happens is just exactly a duplette of what the quoted poster has written.

    also we (some other sw developers and wow fans here) had done the same that Bellular did in his video. but way more smart and way more in deep. i will never release this analytics and their results anywhere in public, because i am sure Blizzards lawyers team would contact me very fast and i dont have the publicity bonus, as a safe shield, Bellular has. but everyone out there, understanding REST, using the wow armory api and analzye the combined data of wclogs and rio, can do the same and can see the real picture. most ppl are too lazy, have too less knowhow or whatever, but you can have a look at the simple truth. its just there. and let me say here that Bellulars picture looks way better than the reality is.

    why i say this: lets just assume for a second you believe what i said above (without making out analytics public) and its true. then this is a VERY good reason or support for the „Blizz is in full dmamage control“ argument. it would backup that argument heavily. since i have that information and work in this business since 20 years, i simply can not disagree to quoted poster. even when i want.

    as a quick side note: what you written is super easily to turn 180 degrees around. i can say „kneejerk arguments out of whiteknighting/fanboyism happens“. and now? what you said has zero substance. and tbh i expect a bit more of someone that is a mod in this forum.

    in short: everyone has his opinion. quoted poster has his, i has mine and you have yours. at least, i could back it up with some real analytics, if i wanna get myself in danger with Blizzards lawyer suites. but as long as i not offer my real data analytics it doesnt matter much. i will for sure not do, since i care waaaay too less to take that risk. but since i work in this business and clearly can see (and back it up for myself) that quoted poster is 100% right (in MY opinion), i have to agree to him.

    the only mistake i did was not to write „imo“ to my sentence you quoted. but this mistake is not the same big than your „i know everything“ fanboyism stance, that use stuff like „no, he IS not“ or declare the reason for other ppls („out of hate“).

    but in the end, before some of us bring real, undiscussable, facts on the table or Blizzard opens his internals to public (will never happen) its just opinions. yours, mine, quoted posters one. and no opinion is more or less „true“ here. its just opinions, not facts.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-09-17 at 07:35 PM.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm wondering if the shortcuts are due to WoW having dipped below a level where a conversion to F2P, or even mobile, would be mandated by upper management.

    While I don't yet think it's the most likely scenario, I will not be too surprised if SL is the last expansion. And if there is a next expansion and it fails, I will be very surprised if there's an expansion after that.
    I'm pretty sure the next expansion will be sold as a game overhaul. I've made a thread weeks ago about a possible world revamp and I think selling this as a "A Realm Reborn" of WoW could be their only hope of redemption. Still, things have been too unpredictable to say what will be Blizzard's next move.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i cant tell anything about quoted posters motivations (what you imply as „hate“). i just can tell what we, me, as working in this business for 20+ years, would do as damage control and that its obviously to ME, what happens. i speak for noone else than for ME. and what i think what happens is just exactly a duplette of what the quoted poster has written.

    also we (some other sw developers and wow fans here) had done the same that Bellular did in his video. but way more smart and way more in deep. i will never release this analytics and their results anywhere in public, because i am sure Blizzards lawyers team would contact me very fast and i dont have the publicity bonus, as a safe shield, Bellular has. but everyone out there, understanding REST, using the wow armory api and analzye the combined data of wclogs and rio, can do the same and can see the real picture. most ppl are too lazy, have too less knowhow or whatever, but you can have a look at the simple truth. its just there. and let me say here that Bellulars picture looks way better than the reality is.

    why i say this: lets just assume for a second you believe what i said above (without making out analytics public) and its true. then this is a VERY good reason or support for the „Blizz is in full dmamage control“ argument. it would backup that argument heavily. since i have that information and work in this business since 20 years, i simply can not disagree to quoted poster. even when i want.

    as a quick side note: what you written is super easily to turn 180 degrees around. i can say „kneejerk arguments out of whiteknighting/fanboyism happens“. and now? what you said has zero substance. and tbh i expect a bit more of someone that is a mod in this forum.

    in short: everyone has his opinion. quoted poster has his, i has mine and you have yours. at least, i could back it up with some real analytics, if i wanna get myself in danger with Blizzards lawyer suites. but as long as i not offer my real data analytics it doesnt matter much. i will for sure not do, since i care waaaay too less to take that risk. but since i work in this business and clearly can see (and back it up for myself) that quoted poster is 100% right (in MY opinion), i have to agree to him.

    the only mistake i did was not to write „imo“ to my sentence you quoted. but this mistake is not the same big than your „i know everything“ fanboyism stance, that use stuff like „no, he IS not“ or declare the reason for other ppls („out of hate“).

    but in the end, before some of us bring real, undiscussable, facts on the table or Blizzard opens his internals to public (will never happen) its just opinions. yours, mine, quoted posters one. and no opinion is more or less „true“ here. its just opinions, not facts.
    1) I never said anything about the poster's hate, I said it about the metacritic reviews.

    2) Your bold claim of having "data" that you can't share is irrelevant. If it can't be shared, then it's pointless to discuss because it's just as real as me saying "well I have data showing otherwise!"

    3) You can't turn it around to say "kneejerk arguments out of whiteknighting" because the metacritic score is quite clearly not being bombarded with positive reviews, so it hardly applies to the situation.


    Ultimately, I'm not quite sure you can criticize what I'm saying if you cannot support your own claims while also grossly misrepresenting what I said on multiple levels. I never claimed to know "everything". Literally nothing you said was backed up, it's just a vague claim of "trust me bro, I have the data!".

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Weird how all the critic reviews come from after Nov. 23rd, the launch date then.

    https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/w...critic-reviews

    Some which didn't even come out until this year for reviews.

    And it doesn't matter if the yellow ones are the most fair, because look at the sheer nonsensical ratio of 0-3s that people gave while giving minor criticism, all which should be easily 5-6s if anything.
    It's easy to just keep scrolling and realize that they're giving low scores simply out of not realizing what should be in a range of 4-6, and thinking "OH, I DON'T LIKE, IT'S A 0".
    Lets look at the reviews that matters:

    https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/w...s/user-reviews

    Much better.... i mean its up to debate which of those comments makes sense and which not, but the critic reviews on games as big as wow never make any sense its just a big waste of time to read them those people are no real wow players and have zero clue about a game that is constantly updated(or used to be that way). Critics and game magazines do play betas a lot to base their review on i read them regulary for decades so i do know, does not matter if the review came to the intial release, you cant really review a game like this in its initial release without playing the beta, there is only so much time playing a gated MMORPG like WoW and do that review proper. They have some merit of games that are finished at their release like strategy titles or solo rpgs, but MMORPGS....not really.

    But, its poor to see so few yellow reviews even at the user review section, those are the most fair ones for most games as they are not just text filled with hate, but constructive criticism. I read metacritic a lot when i got the time. If a game is a legendary masterpiece i can accept overwhelming green reviews, but its controversial as SL or lets say controverse/bad like current SL, green reviews do not make much sense, most of those are done at the inital release time in around 2020 when the game was fresh, anyways. Problem is those reviews lost its meaning over time now.

    No content, no passion, no fun to be found into this game, feels like a job, most senior devs moved to other studios, overcorrections(replacing art with fruits) etc.Just shows the game is dead(or blizzard for that matter), metacritic user reviews are crystal clear about that as the majority of the reviews are red, despite how informative they are or not, majority of people just don't bother anymore to even write a meaningful text.

    It will be a real titanic challenge to make retail wow popular again with all the stuff that happened this past summer and continues to happen.

  17. #597
    I wish Blizzard would add more story to the game. After you finish leveling up, it's just world quests / farming / raids / PVP (which is fun); however, it would be nice if each patch would add a very lengthy story people could enjoy (even if it was a side story). Like for example, the narrative sending us into older zones / expansions and catching up on current events in those zones. I really like going through the Classic zones and just reading the quests / doing them, but once they're done, they're done. Isn't anyone curious about what is happening in Outland / Pandaria / Notherend after we left?! What about the class order halls / investigating the remnants of the enemies we defeated?

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Lets look at the reviews that matters:
    As long as you keep insisting that the only reviews that matter are fan reviews, then you shouldn't use metacritic at all. it's as simple as that because it's showing bias at that point, people just want to use the side that agrees with them and uses anything to dismiss the other side.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    1) I never said anything about the poster's hate, I said it about the metacritic reviews.

    2) Your bold claim of having "data" that you can't share is irrelevant. If it can't be shared, then it's pointless to discuss because it's just as real as me saying "well I have data showing otherwise!"

    3) You can't turn it around to say "kneejerk arguments out of whiteknighting" because the metacritic score is quite clearly not being bombarded with positive reviews, so it hardly applies to the situation.


    Ultimately, I'm not quite sure you can criticize what I'm saying if you cannot support your own claims while also grossly misrepresenting what I said on multiple levels. I never claimed to know "everything". Literally nothing you said was backed up, it's just a vague claim of "trust me bro, I have the data!".
    2) i always stated that, yes. so its nice and useless that you repeat what i already said and anticipating the obvious. and additionally, as i said too, you could analyze the data by your self. but i assume you are way too lazy or … for that.

    and i disagree. your post is full of some „its like that“ statemebts. heck, you even started your post with that. and now you wanna turn this around and tell me, i am the one going „trust me bro“ ? lol. nice try.

    also stop putting words in my mouth. i not said „i have data“. i said „i analyzed the public available data and everyne can do too“. i dont know how ppl like you can be declared a mod. its a shame for that forum owners.

    whatever… talking to ppls like you is not worth the time. so plz bring your „now you quckly aprupt, because you have no more arguments“ post, so i can quickly get out of this useless talk.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-09-17 at 10:06 PM.

  20. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    2) i always stated that, yes. so its nice and useless that you repeat what i already said and anticipating the obvious. and additionally, as i said too, you could analyze the data by your self. but i assume you are way too lazy or … for that.

    whatever… talking to ppls like you is not worth the time. so plz bring your „now you quckly aprupt, because you have no more arguments“ post, so i can quickly end this useless talk.
    Imagine having to sit down for a couple of hours to do some numbers crunching yourself, with data fresh from Blizzard's own API on top. Oh the horror
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

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