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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    No.

    These emergency fixes are something they have been doing everytime an expansion goes down the drain in popularity.

    The only thing they have proven so far is that they keep making horrendous gameplay experiences that urgently need fixed everytime.

    Maybe if they manage to put as much focus on evergreen content, keeping old content relevant and put as much effort into storytelling as FFXIV FFXIV they won't sink into nothingness. But right now they are on a less than mediocre highway to bankruptcy.
    It's nuts that people actually believe this.

  2. #142
    Not really they've wasted too much time turning it in to an epsort, i mean look at the people they have working there, the culture, so bad the STATE had to get involved, that's pretty bad, i mean it's almost no wonder all they could come up with was things like M+, yeah just throw a time limit on it, so creative, what can you expect from semi human lowlife degenerate sexual predators amirite.

    Now that they are all washed away, i hope "all", so the culture can change back to creativity, and maybe they can get back to making a kick ass mmorpg, is the hope ofc. In the meantime, New World is where i'll be outside of raid nights. I just can't do ffxiv, i was there at reborn launch and loved the game for quite awhile, but i came back recently and yeah, no click, nothing.

    The New World Launch turns into great timing actually as this whole wow drama is not a good backdrop. i come to play to escape, and being confronted with these thoughts of semi human fucking lowlifes enrages me, and wow itself just breads toxicity, which makes sense since you had this sexual deviant mentality at the helm.

    Here's hoping that now they are gone (hopefully) the good devs can get back to doing what they do best, and again hopefully they are good at making a kick ass mmorpg, and not a lousy pos esport. Raids rock, M+ does not, bring back the world and i could see wow returning to it's former glory and maybe even wear the crown again one day.
    looking out of my lonely room day after day

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Kind of disingenuous post don't you think? They even told us the reason why the "ripcord" has been pulled because it makes sense in the context of the story so far, not because of some player outrage that only affected the hardcore raiders.

    Personally I really liked the rigid choice of covenant. It committed you to a cause, and made you feel like you were a part of something and that leaving had consequences. But i'm also glad they are easing up on those restrictions because it makes sense now to do so.
    No, it's not disingenuous, it's the truth. They can tell you a lot when the day is long (which they are doing), but they're pulling the ripcord or whatever we want to call this because retail is in a horrible state and players left Shadowlands in droves shortly after launch. 9.1, which doubled down on all the bad things of 9.0, didn't stop the trend, it even accelerated it. That's why 9.1.5 is 100% the opposite direction of what 9.0 and 9.1 have been.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    This, a thousand times this.

    Blizzard are a bunch of idiots who ignore all critical feedback for a whole year and only when the players abandon this sinking ship do they change course. They deserve nothing but contempt and not an ounce of praise for doing what they should have done a year ago. The only thing they're doing in 9.1 is fix their own mess they callously created.
    Yeah, it's the same as it was in BfA when they brought essences into the game with 8.2 and fixed Azerite. 9.1.5 to Shadowlands is what 8.2 has been to BfA. In BfA they just turned around again in 8.3 and introduced the horrible corruption gear, just wait what they have in store for us with 9.2.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  4. #144
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    I’m excited to see where this expansion will take us story wise. I hope they won’t kill off my favorite character. I like the game changes too. Stuff that is being added in the next patch looks interesting. Maybe I will switch to Nightborne if they will add ear customization option. I kinda like how they look now.
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Not much to screw up when we don't even know what new content there is in 9.2 yet. And for all intents and purposes, 9.2 will most likely contain a new zone, a new raid, a new dungeon, and new quests / campaign story. There will be some time gating on the most BIS gear / story, but thats in every patch.
    just listing the stuff that will be in a patch doesn't say much about the quality of that stuff. and they can certainly fuck up the quality of especially the new zone and campaign which were pretty weak in 9.1. the dungeon will probably also suffer the same fate as the 9.1 dungeon: do it once or twice then never again till it becomes M+. and then ofc there is the standard stuff like having to re-farm your legendary/m+ score that is a coinflip if it will be better or worse. going into the new zone/raid/dungeon with your set bonus disabled on day1 will also not be particularly well received i think.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-09-13 at 02:48 PM.

  6. #146
    We'll see. If the next expansion and its alpha/beta shows that they've learned their lesson and actually respect player feedback, then maybe. Right now, it just comes across as very reactionary due to all the crap going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Which one of those ropes can I hang myself with

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Bellular has to be the worst offender of all the doomsayer youtubers. He creates click bait videos and feeds off going whichever way the wind is blowing at the time to get the most money for his videos. Most, if not all of that dude's videos are complete garbage filled with all manner of falsehoods.

    Its one thing to not like the game for whatever reason, its a whole new level to make money off of hating the game.

    In any case, you're absolutely right, they bring absolutely 0 factual evidence to the table, no official sub data, just complete conjecture.

    He literally used the Blizzard API to reverse engineering the data.

    Enough with this troll shilling @MoanaLisa

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Valid argument. But I think each expansion the team learns quite a bit from their last development cycles. They had passion for what they created in 9.0, and they wanted to let the millions of players play it in the state that fit their passion. Clearly some things didn't work, and they were willing to make some changes. Thats what I love about the WoW dev team. They do their best to follow their passion, and if it doesn't work, they will freely work with the player feedback and implement changes.

    You at least got to admit, its nice to have some of these changes in the first .5 patch of the expansion rather than at the end that the vocal minority constantly points out.
    Which features, precisely, were driven by passion? I'm honestly interested in getting your perspective on this. All I see is formulaic, design-by-metric development. Passion doesn't seem to factor into it anymore. We have precisely the game, for good or ill, that you would expect if you put the leader of the premier number-crunching, theorycrafting guild in charge of development. I can't blame Ion for doing exactly what he was hired to do, but I can blame Blizzard as an entity for catering to only that single demographic.

    Literally everything has been designed to feed into the endgame raid-or-die loot treadmill. Torghast would have been one of the best received features of recent memory, but they tied it into player power and hamstrung their development - it had to be tolerable for those who were only there because it was a required chore, and thus it was neutered and not allowed to stand on its own. All to drive a "player engagement" metric that means nothing for actual consumers - it is solely a goal because investors like to see that number grow. All the while failing to realize that this metric becomes useless when you go beyond simply being informed by it and start actively designing the game to inflate it.

    And your belief that they freely work with player feedback... that's optimistic, at best. I was in the chorus of voices that pointed out all the issues with Shadowlands (easy fixes, as this patch revealed). These voices were not listened to, and later on, Ion actually said that these issues weren't picked up on in beta. Which may as well be overtly stated that we were ignored. This hasn't been a game designed in cooperation with the players for quite some time now. It's their world. There's a reason that "fun detected" is a meme. There is a reason, "You think you do, but you don't" is a meme. That's the culture of modern Blizzard. They lead with their ego, and to listen to the playerbase is to take a blow to that ego.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-09-13 at 02:50 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Did I forget the part where Blizzard was holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play the game in a state that you didn't like? Is it really Blizzard's fault you bought an expansion that was exactly the way it had been advertised?
    You surely forgot the part where people are paying a sub for the game, sure i can freeze but still is a SAS not a lemonade stand.
    You surely forgot the parte where "was impossible" to make the Covenant change without ruining the fabric of the expansion itself, and still made in 1 week it seems.


    Also they advertised new customization that were scrapped until the rape fiesta bad PR so yes that was false advertising just like War3 RE

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Which features, precisely, were driven by passion? I'm honestly interested in getting your perspective on this. All I see is formulaic, design-by-metric development. Passion doesn't seem to factor into it anymore. We have precisely the game, for good or ill, that you would expect if you put the leader of the premier number-crunching, theorycrafting guild in charge of development. I can't blame Ion for doing exactly what he was hired to do, but I can blame Blizzard as an entity for catering to only that single demographic.

    Literally everything has been designed to feed into the endgame raid-or-die loot treadmill. Torghast would have been one of the best received features of recent memory, but they tied it into player power and hamstrung their development - it had to be tolerable for those who were only there because it was a required chore, and thus it was neutered and not allowed to stand on its own. All to drive a "player engagement" metric that means nothing for actual consumers - it is solely a goal because investors like to see that number grow. All the while failing to realize that this metric becomes useless when you go beyond simply being informed by it and start actively designing the game to inflate it.

    And your belief that they freely work with player feedback... that's optimistic, at best. I was in the chorus of voices that pointed out all the issues with Shadowlands (easy fixes, as this patch revealed). These voices were not listened to, and later on, Ion actually said that these issues weren't picked up on in beta. Which may as well be overtly stated that we were ignored. This hasn't been a game designed in cooperation with the players for quite some time now. It's their world. There's a reason that "fun detected" is a meme.
    Did you people just like... not play in older expansions or something? Because all of these issues have existed since day one and it's weird people try to frame it as being Ion, or being something new. Were you guys just not paying attention at all beforehand?

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    We can only hope shadowlands is never repeated.
    (monkey's paw closes)

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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Did you people just like... not play in older expansions or something? Because all of these issues have existed since day one and it's weird people try to frame it as being Ion, or being something new. Were you guys just not paying attention at all beforehand?
    You can reduce any game to its numbers. I would argue that, until the tail end of WoD or so, there was a "world first" development policy. This was particularly prominent in vanilla and dropped off as time marched on, but it simply isn't present anymore.

    Early on, they weren't directly developing a game - they were developing a virtual world to explore and populating it with systems that made sense in the context of the game's world. Now, the inverse is true - they develop systems and then force them to make sense in the game world. They no longer develop a zone then populate it with relevant quests - the very geography of the world is informed by the demands of the world quest system as interlocking jigsaw pieces of "points of interest."

    If you only see the game through the same lens as Ion - that of someone who solely enjoys endgame content and theorycrafting - you aren't going to be able to see this distinction very well. But there's a reason that truly casual MMO players (not those that see themselves as temporarily inconvenienced Mythic raiders) have long since left WoW. There's no longer a world for them here - just a glorified lobby for Mythic + and raids.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    You surely forgot the part where people are paying a sub for the game, sure i can freeze but still is a SAS not a lemonade stand.
    Buddy, you have full agency over whether you pay for a fucking game. If you're paying a subscription for something you don't enjoy that is not a Blizzard problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    You surely forgot the parte where "was impossible" to make the Covenant change without ruining the fabric of the expansion itself, and still made in 1 week it seems.
    Couple of things to unpack here and I doubt you'll even read it but here it goes.

    1.) They never said it was "impossible." In fact, Ion had an infamous interview with Preach Gaming where he mentioned "pulling the ripcord."
    2.) The reason they were not keen on removing the Covenant restrictions had a lot to do with the specific experience Blizzard wanted to deliver with the expansion. From both a lore and gameplay (more lore than gameplay) standpoint, it wouldn't have made sense to have hot swappable Covenants from the beginning.
    3.) If you think point number 2 is bullshit then you and I agree. But this isn't because "Blizzard hates its players" or "Blizzard intentionally makes a bad game to fix it later," it's because that's the vision they had for the game and even though we, as players, have every right to disagree with this vision, it's ultimately their video game not ours. I think the bigger underlying issue is that expansion-defining features like Covenants simply do not mesh well with a game like WoW; but I don't think calling the developers incompetent or unwilling to budge is a particularly effective discourse and that we, as a community, do a lot more harm to the game by being belligerent and calling them all sorts of nasty names for simply designing a fucking video game the way they sought fit.
    4.) Going back to my previous point, you have agency as a subscriber to simply stop paying for a product that you are no longer interested in. Quitting WoW sends the most clear message to the developers that the game is moving in the wrong direction. Complaining about a game that you pay gladly $15/mo to play is peak hypocrisy.


    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    Also they advertised new customization that were scrapped until the rape fiesta bad PR so yes that was false advertising just like War3 RE
    This is straight "I was promised a pony" territory. The major features of SL were known well in advance. If you didn't like what was being sold to you there was ample opportunity to cancel your pre-order.
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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, it's not disingenuous, it's the truth. They can tell you a lot when the day is long (which they are doing), but they're pulling the ripcord or whatever we want to call this because retail is in a horrible state and players left Shadowlands in droves shortly after launch. 9.1, which doubled down on all the bad things of 9.0, didn't stop the trend, it even accelerated it. That's why 9.1.5 is 100% the opposite direction of what 9.0 and 9.1 have been.
    I would really love to see some factual evidence of this sub loss. Where are the sub numbers being announced, did they start releasing that information again?

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I think a lot of people simply forget how bad the game was at the end of WoD. There was barely anybody playing. WoW had a lot to lose. Legion brought a lot of people back to the game but it's still nowhere near as bad today as it was back in WoD when players were making these complaints. You are 100% correct in that a lot of people aren't thinking for themselves but I don't know if Legion "good times" are possible unless Blizzard intentionally lets the game get as bad as it was in WoD again.
    I think people tend to depict Legion as better than it actually was exactly for this same reason. Granted you're right on the fact WoD was abysmal and Legion was like a renaissance of the game for sure, but it mostly was because it added a lot of new stuff, not that it was everything good right from the start. M+ was a literal aoe fiesta, AP grinding at the beginning was painful and legendaries were terrible if we talk about acquisition.

    I think that Blizzard should actually "backpedal" on the whole "we need to add more and more layers to our game". They have a trifecta of content (m+, raid and pvp) that people actually like to play. They imho just need to make so these 3 paths are self sustained on their own and any player doesn't need to interact with ones he doesn't like. Better have less people in a specific content type but all happy about it than having everyone need to do everything while they only actually like a part of it.
    World content is "fine" as in it could be better, but it does its job as a stepping stone for the actual endgame. I'd like to see something on the line of an "adventure book" where you do stuff in zones and unlock account wide benefits - some sort of checklists. You can complete it through multiple characters and once you're done you're done.

    But that's just me. They have different things and ideas done right, they should capitalize on those while scrapping what doesn't work.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    I would really love to see some factual evidence of this sub loss. Where are the sub numbers being announced, did they start releasing that information again?
    You don't need those specific numbers to see that players left post-launch. This isn't even something that Blizzard denies - they see it as a natural part of the development cycle.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    You don't need those specific numbers to see that players left post-launch. This isn't even something that Blizzard denies - they see it as a natural part of the development cycle.
    Its a natural part of any game that interest drops off over time.

    The claim that millions have left is completely unfounded in bias with no factual evidence to back it up.

  18. #158
    Most of those changes in 9.1.5 should have been there at the launch of Shadowlands. They are in a panic mode now losing too many subs so they decided to give everything we asked for in Beta cause they don't have much new content to release anytime soon anyway. All these months since SL came out we were just wasting time on Anima, Renown, and all those other crappy systems grind and just now after we wasted all this time they decide to make it much easier and faster. So no, unless they show they learned their lesson in the future major patches and expansions and stop wasting people time on purpose I'm not optimistic.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    He literally used the Blizzard API to reverse engineering the data.

    Enough with this troll shilling @MoanaLisa
    Really? You're complaining and calling a moderator because you disagree with me? K.

    Bellular is a complete dbag tool "game developer" who feeds off whatever the way the wind is blowing. It doesn't matter to him, if the vocal minority is upset with the game, he creates Blizzard hate videos and profits off them. If players are really enjoying the game, he makes videos showcasing how fun the game is and profits off them.

    In any case, yes I choose to be optimistic about the game that I have loved and enjoyed for many years. I don't always agree or like some of the decisions the developers make, but generally the game is fun, and I enjoy playing. I'm not going to pay to play a game that I don't enjoy, and I would hope you don't either.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    I would really love to see some factual evidence of this sub loss. Where are the sub numbers being announced, did they start releasing that information again?
    It's in their financial results. If you want to see it, you can see it. It's telling that they didn't even mention retail WoW in their latest call, they just focused on TBC Classic. And Shadowlands, at that point, was just over 6 months old. That's telling more than enough about the state of retail.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

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