I feel optimistic about WoW

[roboscorcher]

The new retail changes are good but way too late. They ignored all major the problems identified in the beta. The only thing properly addressed was the pvp vendor, and it was the best part of launch.

If the devs listen to us like they did with the pvp vendor in the next beta, I'll return for launch. Until then I'll stick to Classic. Also, I'm never preordering an expansion again.

[sunxsera]

With all the positive changes to the game coming in 9.1.5, I can't help feel optimistic about the game and the direction they are heading in with it.

I'm excited to see what 9.2 brings, and 9.3, and eventually a new expansion in 10.0. I bet they will plan some massive expansion for 10.0 to celebrate 20 years of WoW.

Do you feel optimistic about WoW and where its headed?

Most of these changes were not needed if they just had listened to alpha / beta feedback. The "we hear you" is bs.

How can you be optimistic when 9.1.5 is a full damage control patch - it just happens because of the lawsuit and a massive player drop ... and because 9.2 probably isn't even slightly finished - and will most likely come out sometime in spring 2022.

It's too early to be optimistic for me. Let's see what happens in 9.3 and 10.0.

[crusadernero]

Most of these changes were not needed if they just had listened to alpha / beta feedback. The "we hear you" is bs.

How can you be optimistic when 9.1.5 is a full damage control patch - it just happens because of the lawsuit and a massive player drop ... and because 9.2 probably isn't even slightly finished - and will most likely come out sometime in spring 2022.

It's too early to be optimistic for me. Let's see what happens in 9.3 and 10.0.

lol yeah I just realised that 9.2 wont be out until months into 2022. Jikes

[Kalocy Jim]

You literally asked for our subjective opinions, but yet again you attack someone with a sarcastic reply because you don't like their opinion. If you are not willing to have an open discussion, why create the thread?

"*Looks at the last 3 expansions* Yeah, about that..."

implying the last 3 expansions were not good as factual, yeah not gonna fly with me. There were some good and bad things about every expansion, it doesn't mean overall they were bad.

[roboscorcher]

Most of these changes were not needed if they just had listened to alpha / beta feedback. The "we hear you" is bs.

How can you be optimistic when 9.1.5 is a full damage control patch - it just happens because of the lawsuit and a massive player drop ... and because 9.2 probably isn't even slightly finished - and will most likely come out sometime in spring 2022.

It's too early to be optimistic for me. Let's see what happens in 9.3 and 10.0.

I agree it's too early to be optimistic. But there's a chance the next beta will be better.

I think that the devs have been held to unrealistic deadlines in past years. If the devs are given the time to polish the game proerly now, the next xpac will be good. If the devs are still stuck in crunch mode, they should go public about it during beta. We players are listening this time around. I don't want bean counters determining if the game will actually work or not.

It's also possible that there was no pressure on the devs and Ion really is at fault here for sticking to problematic systems. But I do think he is still a gamer at heart and was being the fall guy for deadlines beyond his control. We'll see how the next game pans out.

[Greyvax]

9.1.5 is a "please stay subbed bb" patch.

WoW is purely cyclical now. 2 months of content for each xpac/major patch release, and then unsub till the next one.

[Kalocy Jim]

Yes, its a decent start. Though we gotta remember, they dont do anything else than listening to the feedback given for about a year. Finally they gave in and this is something they have done last couple of xpacs too, but this time it happend even sooner.

The real telling if Blizzard has changed or not, will be the next xpac. The story, zones, overall theme for xpac and what endgame entails will be what decides wows fate in the future.

I think SL is lost for many at this point no matter what Blizzard does, but theres a good chance many of them will give the next xpac a chance. Cause why wouldnt you atleast level in the new xpac?

But they can't just develop games based on whatever way the wind is blowing at the time. They make development decisions based on their vision of the game first and foremost. It just so happens that after some of the systems being in the game for a time, they agreed with and are now implementing some changes based on 1) first hand experience and 2) player feedback.

[crusadernero]

But they can't just develop games based on whatever way the wind is blowing at the time. They make development decisions based on their vision of the game first and foremost. It just so happens that after some of the systems being in the game for a time, they agreed with and are now implementing some changes based on 1) first hand experience and 2) player feedback.

of course they cant do that, but these feedbacks have been thrown at them since SL Alpha/Beta. Players wanted these changes long ago. Suddenly now it happens.

[Kalocy Jim]

Positive changes of which 99% have been beta feedback and have been GLADLY ignored one year ago? They changed their mind because retail WoW is in shambles, not because they finally realize that their design philosophy is a fail since BfA.

Kind of disingenuous post don't you think? They even told us the reason why the "ripcord" has been pulled because it makes sense in the context of the story so far, not because of some player outrage that only affected the hardcore raiders.

Personally I really liked the rigid choice of covenant. It committed you to a cause, and made you feel like you were a part of something and that leaving had consequences. But i'm also glad they are easing up on those restrictions because it makes sense now to do so.

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I'm not sure it will be fixed in Shadowlands. How do you fix a WoW expansion that doesn't feel like WoW? I don't think players want 10 max level systems that require daily management. I don't think they want Boreghast either.

The only thing that can possibly save WoW now is WoW 2.0.

This seems like streamer talking points to me.

Why does the vocal minority always listen to those dbag streamers / content creators? Can you not make up your mind for yourselves?

At this point, the only objective and non-biased streamers / content creators are Taliesen & Evital.

[sunxsera]

But they can't just develop games based on whatever way the wind is blowing at the time. They make development decisions based on their vision of the game first and foremost. It just so happens that after some of the systems being in the game for a time, they agreed with and are now implementing some changes based on 1) first hand experience and 2) player feedback.

Right now it feels like the "vision" is to sell a 6 month subscription package for their quarterly report. Because there have been absolutely no improvements to game mechanics in shadowlands.
Another reason why 9.1.5 happens.

[Kalocy Jim]

bit early for optimism.

if they listen to player feedback in 9.2 PTR then there is cautious hope for optimism. and then they have to keep that up and not do a major fuckup until at least 10.0 before people will actually start to give them the benefit of the doubt again.

if they fuck up before 10.0 there will be "told you so" all over for weeks.

Not much to screw up when we don't even know what new content there is in 9.2 yet. And for all intents and purposes, 9.2 will most likely contain a new zone, a new raid, a new dungeon, and new quests / campaign story. There will be some time gating on the most BIS gear / story, but thats in every patch.

[deenman]

I chuckled. No evidence that they "lost millions" of players.

ignoring facts that make your feelings hurt doesnt change reality

[Kalocy Jim]

Lol, you mean after most guilds were 80-90% done with the progression they were told "now you can pick corruptions, go back to grind?" It was a massive spit to the face to basically force everyone to go back to the content they thought they were done grinding to "optimize" their corruptions. Basically the whole BFA was an exercise in wasting players' time. You got X? Now grind that content again because we put Y in it. For example islands. Fuck them. Every time I thought I won't have to see another island in my life they attached a new carrot to it. That's why if BFA turned anything around was my willingness to play this game. Seems Shadowlands is continuing that path.

"fuck them" for adding more content to their game. K.

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Here's the greater point - let's give your argument the benefit of the doubt and say that 8.3 was the absolute pinnacle of WoW. They still threw out all that progress with the next expansion and started rebuilding and rebalancing what are functionally the same systems. That's a problem. As soon as they get their wheels rounded, so to speak, they throw them out and reinvent them again, starting from a square. It's a bumpy ride for the players.

Valid argument. But I think each expansion the team learns quite a bit from their last development cycles. They had passion for what they created in 9.0, and they wanted to let the millions of players play it in the state that fit their passion. Clearly some things didn't work, and they were willing to make some changes. Thats what I love about the WoW dev team. They do their best to follow their passion, and if it doesn't work, they will freely work with the player feedback and implement changes.

You at least got to admit, its nice to have some of these changes in the first .5 patch of the expansion rather than at the end that the vocal minority constantly points out.

[mbit]

because it makes sense in the context of the story so far

Was there ever any data on how many actually care? We at least know there are players who dont even know the story cause they hard skip everything. Would even play carebears getting invaded by demons and pandaren running a campaign to get alliance&horde to help their brothers if the gameplay was fun. Cow level in diablo didnt kill my fun either.

[Eggroll]

For me, a vital part would be for them to own up to their failiings in regard to the treatment of the player base.

It really started to go downhill in WoD with gaslighting players about their feedback, blaming players for the state of the game, telling them to shut up "because you are not developers", the flying drame in WoD, the armory shaming of players by Ornyx and Jeff Kaplan, the general condescending tone they have towards the player base.

It's already quite a while ago, I was looking at this dumpster fire of communication and thought to myself: If I had a kid, I would not allow them to interact with Blizzard in any shape or form, just to protect them from the abuse.

[Kalocy Jim]

The sad thing is you kind of have to wait until 10.0 to see how they handle things.

Contrary to the ball fondling that Legion gets on these forums as of late, it was just as trash as BFA (maybe even more so) in how it handled it's systems. Pretty much everything was fixed at the very end, just like in BFA. BFAs biggest fault was following Legion and having horribly tuned Azerite traits on armor out of the gate. All in all, Legion/BFA/Shadowlands have had an approach of taking feedback and ignoring it until the end.

Players aren't always right though. Just go back and look at how much people loved Torghast on beta?

A lot of the 9.1.5 changes should've been in at the start, or shortly after 9.0 being released. My issue with Blizzard as of late is they invalidate the progress people make half way through a patch, by allowing everybody to catch up as quickly as possible. Why break your back grinding Korthia or doing Torghast every single week when a patch half way through the tier makes it way easier? Just feels like they're disrespecting your time. I feel especially bad for those who grinded AP in 9.0 to get cosmetic items given how awful it was to get AP.

This isn't me saying Blizzard is going to get everything right either. Players are oftentimes wrong in the feedback they give and sometimes things don't work (it's fine to make mistakes). There are lots of things that should be fairly obvious though from both feedback and making the game feel better to play, and it just feels like as of late they know what these things are, but dangle them as features to be released in a later patch. That might have worked when we were all stupid in Legion, but dangling that for going on 6 years just isn't going to work anymore.

10.0 will be the real test though. Somethings were fixed in 9.1, but that was nearly 7 months after launch, while the majority of the things that would've made Shadowlands a lot better of an experience aren't being fixed until nearly a year after release? Do you really want to continue a game that you pay a subscription to that has super infrequent patch updates and doesn't fix huge issues with the game until a year (or more in previous expansions?) after it's launched? I think people trying other MMOs right now isn't simply because other MMOs are better, it's just because people are growing bored with the model we are currently getting and aren't going to continue with the status quo that Blizzard has adopted since pretty much Legion.

I think some of you are missing the point when Blizzard does patches like 9.1.5 as well. These are things we've wanted (and I wanted as well) since pretty much the beginning. Had they happened a few months in, I doubt many people would've grumbled that much, but all of this is happening a year later is the problem. You can't blame people for being annoyed about potentially losing a year of having the game in a better state. It's like the fun button isn't allowed to be pushed for a few patches.

Valid points. The only thing i'd say is that you cant throw out the year of fun that players DID have. People make it seem like the past year has only been misery and no progress or fun has been made for them playing the game the past year. That just isn't true. The things "people" have wanted (and i put people in quotes because its really the idiot streamers who incite players to want those things more so), like the free covenant swapping and such were able to be done before. It was just a more meaningful and impactful change to swap covenants. If you wanted the benefits of the other covenant, you had to earn it.

I have had a ton of fun over the last year, many other people including the doomsayers and people who come here to shit on the game have also had fun. I just like to keep an optimistic eye about things and not shit on the game every chance I get. That does no one any good.

I admit, there have been some bad things about the game that I wish were changed, and now they are making some of those changes, but it doesn't mean that I logged in every day with a big frown on my face and loathing PLAYING A VIDEO GAME. If that were the case, I wouldn't have played the game at all.

[Albertillo]

You first day you do not understand the problem and then judge people who do understand it - gg

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Just to point this out, they never fixed corruption and it was a terrible system from start to finish.

It's not my first day. Been reading this site for years but never really cared to register.

It's true that they are making systems each expansion and then throwing them away in the next one, or making other versions of them, but still, if you had for 8 expansions EXACTLY the same thing (only tier sets, base skills and that's all), people would complain that there aren't new things in the game either way. For me it's not a bad idea to have borrowed power as long as it makes sense with the story (Legion, BfA, shadowlands, for example, lore-wise the new abilities are perfectly plausible because of the artifacts, heart of azeroth and covenants), and if people get too attached, you can just make a new row of talents and put it there like with some abilities in legion.

It would be impossible to add new spells every expansion because there would be too many buttons, so having a special skill that only appears in the expansion we're playing at that moment seems like a good solution for that, gives new playstiles while doesn't destroy the game by adding too many skills. Of course, there are times that they screw up with the systems, like in BfA, but in general I don't think it is a bad concept and don't understand the problem people has with it. Idk, people just complain about borrowed power and RNG when it's been in the game since classic, so don't really understand.

[Kalocy Jim]

I feel scorn that anyone can be so willfully blind as to be optimistic.
Scorn and the dreadful exhaustion you only feel watching people commit to the same mistakes over and over again no matter how much you try and stop it

You feel scorn for other people who are enjoying themselves playing a video game?

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ignoring facts that make your feelings hurt doesnt change reality

What facts? You didn't present any.

[Itisamuh]

No optimism here, but then again I realized a very long time ago I am clearly not the target audience for an MMO, given that I have no interest in socializing with anyone but people I know IRL, and want no gear whatsoever in PvP. The changes in the upcoming patch are nice, and for the most part I actually liked a lot about SL, but they will likely never address any of the things I find irksome about WoW, such as the previously mentioned things and the completely arbitrary faction barrier.

[Hitei]

No.

These emergency fixes are something they have been doing everytime an expansion goes down the drain in popularity.

The only thing they have proven so far is that they keep making horrendous gameplay experiences that urgently need fixed everytime.

Maybe if they manage to put as much focus on evergreen content, keeping old content relevant and put as much effort into storytelling as FFXIV FFXIV they won't sink into nothingness. But right now they are on a less than mediocre highway to bankruptcy.

It's nuts that people actually believe this.