I feel optimistic about WoW

[mbit]

"Good game design" is in the eyes of the beholder/player. I dislike the systems that are being created for WoW as much as anyone and have said so. That said, MMO's are grindy beasts, nearly all of them and complaining about grinds in MMO's is pointless. It's not so much the fact that there's a grind but there are good and bad examples to be found. What bothers me most about the game as it now sits is the lack of transparency.

My primary issue with calls for anyone to be fired is that the forum crowd is a guided missile not pointed at whoever is responsible for things but at whoever is doing the communicating. GC, then community managers until Ion took over communications chores. Tom Chilton was game director for years and during some of WoW's most difficult times (Cataclysm being the best example) but who got the blame? The guy doing the talking at the time: Greg Street. And that's the main reason why I consider calls to fire anyone at Blizzard BS. Guaranteed: If Ion turned over the responsibilities for talking to players to someone else it would only take a few months before that someone else needed to be fired. That's just BS.

Meant game design from company perspective. For the company is simple - good game design means more income. Be it through player retention or better monetization. The problem is its hard to isolate decisions from other causes since there is no test enviroment where you could compare to alternative choices. As for targeting specific devs i remember one instance where it was self-inflicted. A few xpacs back on blizzcon some fans got a dev drunk on camera admitting they dont give a crap about pvp balance and fuck those pvp players anyway they dont matter, they just design for raids. Got shared back then on arenajunkies and naturally incurred wrath.

[Woobels]

I honestly wonder if the borrowed power (I kind of hate the term now) systems and such they keep introducing in a broken state only to fix later when the damage is mostly done really boost engagement significantly enough for this sort of bad PR to be worth it in the end. Maybe they're popular in China or something? It's really baffling to me how they've keep trying to make it work since Legion now and haven't gotten it right a single time.

[Sin of Pride]

"Good game design" is in the eyes of the beholder/player. I dislike the systems that are being created for WoW as much as anyone and have said so. That said, MMO's are grindy beasts, nearly all of them and complaining about grinds in MMO's is pointless. It's not so much the fact that there's a grind but there are good and bad examples to be found. What bothers me most about the game as it now sits is the lack of transparency.

My primary issue with calls for anyone to be fired is that the forum crowd is a guided missile not pointed at whoever is responsible for things but at whoever is doing the communicating. GC, then community managers until Ion took over communications chores. Tom Chilton was game director for years and during some of WoW's most difficult times (Cataclysm being the best example) but who got the blame? The guy doing the talking at the time: Greg Street. And that's the main reason why I consider calls to fire anyone at Blizzard BS. Guaranteed: If Ion turned over the responsibilities for talking to players to someone else it would only take a few months before that someone else needed to be fired. That's just BS.

I can understand that to an extent. I just think we hit the point where the majority of the players base would be happier without any systems being designed for the game. The level of trust with blizzard is so low that beyond mage tower i don't really think players want to see ANY kind of content being made outside of raids and dungeons.

Sadly they have good reason to want this. Whenever blizzard makes anything even story quests they instinctively are compelled to make it a mandatory part of the progression path. It leads to a nasty situation where players actively distrust anything the company does and long for it to be trimmed back rather then expanded upon.

[tikcol]

What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?

And that point in the story just so happens to be the moment people were leaving the game in droves. How convenient.

That's because no amount of forum crying will change anything. The moment people voted with their wallets they suddenly were all about listening to the "community".

[potis]

And that point in the story just so happens to be the moment people were leaving the game in droves. How convenient.

That's because no amount of forum crying will change anything. The moment people voted with their wallets they suddenly were all about listening to the "community".

Dont mistake listening with doing, they do listen, they dont care/arent allowed to do.

It has been said hundred of times before and people still dont get it, yes these systems are atrocious after a bit and people finally woke up, yes they are atrocious if you want to play WoW exclusively when its no longer a game to do so cause everything is made/sped up.

But these systems produce the most $ no matter if you guys scream "Vote with wallets", and it shows that despite the decline they are still making equal if not more money.

As i have personally said so many times before, making it harder for expansion hoppers to unsub, seems to be their business practise and not to keep long term players that want to play 10 alts at the same time.

Personally, i hated Legion, making me log on daily to farm AP, while before i could go hard for a week and raid log, and i love SL for this very reason, the "mandatory" shit are literally 2hr/week, and it becomes 1hr/week if you stop doing Torghast after the first few weeks.

[TBCCLOL]

Really? You're complaining and calling a moderator because you disagree with me? K.

Bellular is a complete dbag tool "game developer" who feeds off whatever the way the wind is blowing. It doesn't matter to him, if the vocal minority is upset with the game, he creates Blizzard hate videos and profits off them. If players are really enjoying the game, he makes videos showcasing how fun the game is and profits off them.

In any case, yes I choose to be optimistic about the game that I have loved and enjoyed for many years. I don't always agree or like some of the decisions the developers make, but generally the game is fun, and I enjoy playing. I'm not going to pay to play a game that I don't enjoy, and I would hope you don't either.

I am calling a moderator because you are a troll account, the entire thread is a troll bait, people already caught you above.

Also even if i dont know bellular, he is technically more into the "how to game dev" than you and everybody else, even if he is not doing well at the moment plus you are strangely forgetting when bellular was a "shill" for blizzard pre BFA but since he got fed up with the bs from devs.

°vocal minority° 3milions active char lost in 5 months mhh mhh

[Loveliest]

I would too, but my guild is kinda not logging anymore. Feels a bit like the end of an expansion.
I'm also bitter because the vault gives me the same two items every week

[tikcol]

Dont mistake listening with doing, they do listen, they dont care/arent allowed to do.

It has been said hundred of times before and people still dont get it, yes these systems are atrocious after a bit and people finally woke up, yes they are atrocious if you want to play WoW exclusively when its no longer a game to do so cause everything is made/sped up.

But these systems produce the most $ no matter if you guys scream "Vote with wallets", and it shows that despite the decline they are still making equal if not more money.

As i have personally said so many times before, making it harder for expansion hoppers to unsub, seems to be their business practise and not to keep long term players satisfied.

Personally, i hated Legion, making me log on daily to farm AP, while before i could go hard for a week and raid log, and i love SL for this very reason, the "mandatory" shit are literally 2hr/week, and it becomes 1hr/week if you stop doing Torghast after the first few weeks.

I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse people love to repeat. As if it wasn't obvious what really happened.

As for subs some people disregard subs because they aren't the biggest source of revenue. They're right. Just don't forget that someone that isn't subscribed isn't buying cash shop items either. Eventually trying to crank up cash shop revenue by disregarding player commitment to the game will and already is biting them in the ass

[Biglog]

You know a topic stirs strong feelings when the OP's quick 3 line comment/question about being optimistic about WoW's future turns into a 23 page thread.

Despite the OP's optimism we're actually at a major low-point for WoW, pretty easily the lowest point ever since it's release. Wow was already slowing down quite a bit and feeling long in the tooth. But the impact from the longtime widespread sexual harassment at Blizzard had already caused some leading staff to leave before the story and legal case went public. Then the atrocious response was kind of a nail in the coffin. Very large numbers of players have said they cannot in good conscious financially support WoW anymore after what Blizzard did. Those players have moved onto other games now like FF, New World, etc. and aren't coming back. So this isn't just typical mid-expansion fatigue where everything will be back to usual in 10.0, this was something that has damaged the brand permanently and wow will never get back to it's big player numbers. Additionally, since the story broke quite a few more leading staff at Blizzard have been fired or resigned. So on top of everything else, Blizzard has also lost a lot of the core talent that helped create wow which won't easily be replaced particularly in today's job market. I doubt Blizzard will get the number of resumes they used to either to backfill them, many skilled people that would have considered working for them (or even thought of it as a dream job) will pass now.

It doesn't mean necessarily that wow will 'die'. Blizzard could wind down new development, cut to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers pretty cheaply. The server costs would be far less than they'd continue to get in monthly sub revenue from the remaining hardcore players. But if Blizzard has any competent management left they'll realize the golden goose is probably cooked and it's finally time to get serious about what's next, whether that's a totally new IP in the mmo space or Wow 2.0. The brand has been damaged so badly that it might take even changing the name Blizzard, and they are going to need to do a big reset and show a much different tone on treatment of employees before their next big release. If Blizzcon was happening this year on it's normal schedule it would be a ghost town and would deliver the customer angst message more directly, so hopefully the absence of that doesn't cause Blizzard to fail to realize the seriousness of the situation. This event and the horrible response doubling-down on the bad is how successful corporations end up as empty offices with a For Lease sign out front.

[potis]

I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse people love to repeat. As if it wasn't obvious what really happened.

As for subs some people disregard subs because they aren't the biggest source of revenue. They're right. Just don't forget that someone that isn't subscribed isn't buying cash shop items either. Eventually trying to crank up cash shop revenue by disregarding player commitment to the game will and already is biting them in the ass

You are both right and wrong.

As i said, expansion hoppers are subs also, but they are more important because the now 35 year old dad with higher income that he can spend, thats gonna buy Expansion +Sub +Sub second month + a few tokens because he cant be active, and boosts work for him despite the hate for them.

Versus , expansion+6 month sub and thats it.

And as i have said before and Blizzard has also, the number of coming and going players is much higher than permanently active players, therefor they are more important.

At least thats what i have seen/the design of the game seems to support.

[TBCCLOL]

I mean yes you're right, they couldn't even admit why they did it, instead gave that bullshit "lore reasons" excuse

This is the best part imho because if you look at WoW competitor like FF14 the "devs attitude" towards failure is opposite, surely both companies arent there to make games for free but Yoshi-P and co attitude regarding their false step is probably the main reason about wow devs detachment from reality-player base.

- - - Updated - - -

You are both right and wrong.

As i said, expansion hoppers are subs also, but they are more important because the now 35 year old dad with higher income that he can spend, thats gonna buy Expansion +Sub +Sub second month + a few tokens because he cant be active, and boosts work for him despite the hate for them.

Versus , expansion+6 month sub and thats it.

And as i have said before and Blizzard has also, the number of coming and going players is much higher than permanently active players, therefor they are more important.

At least thats what i have seen/the design of the game seems to support.

But a 35y old dad, supposed to have enough money to spend for wow, will just quit the game in 2 months if he doesnt have enough free time to play it, is just a short squeeze of his money while ATVI is looking to make him logging at least once per month to show "inflated" numbers as MAU to the shareholders.

[Kalocy Jim]

You know a topic stirs strong feelings when the OP's quick 3 line comment/question about being optimistic about WoW's future turns into a 23 page thread.

Despite the OP's optimism we're actually at a major low-point for WoW, pretty easily the lowest point ever since it's release. Wow was already slowing down quite a bit and feeling long in the tooth. But the impact from the longtime widespread sexual harassment at Blizzard had already caused some leading staff to leave before the story and legal case went public. Then the atrocious response was kind of a nail in the coffin. Very large numbers of players have said they cannot in good conscious financially support WoW anymore after what Blizzard did. Those players have moved onto other games now like FF, New World, etc. and aren't coming back. So this isn't just typical mid-expansion fatigue where everything will be back to usual in 10.0, this was something that has damaged the brand permanently and wow will never get back to it's big player numbers. Additionally, since the story broke quite a few more leading staff at Blizzard have been fired or resigned. So on top of everything else, Blizzard has also lost a lot of the core talent that helped create wow which won't easily be replaced particularly in today's job market. I doubt Blizzard will get the number of resumes they used to either to backfill them, many skilled people that would have considered working for them (or even thought of it as a dream job) will pass now.

It doesn't mean necessarily that wow will 'die'. Blizzard could wind down new development, cut to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers pretty cheaply. The server costs would be far less than they'd continue to get in monthly sub revenue from the remaining hardcore players. But if Blizzard has any competent management left they'll realize the golden goose is probably cooked and it's finally time to get serious about what's next, whether that's a totally new IP in the mmo space or Wow 2.0. The brand has been damaged so badly that it might take even changing the name Blizzard, and they are going to need to do a big reset and show a much different tone on treatment of employees before their next big release. If Blizzcon was happening this year on it's normal schedule it would be a ghost town and would deliver the customer angst message more directly, so hopefully the absence of that doesn't cause Blizzard to fail to realize the seriousness of the situation. This event and the horrible response doubling-down on the bad is how successful corporations end up as empty offices with a For Lease sign out front.

I disagree with you and your sentiment.

All companies face legal issues at one point or another. For the most part, the majority of the staff at Blizzard (99.99%) of them are good people who didn't engage in any sort of sexual harassment. You shouldn't cast shade at all the employees / the entire company because of a few bad eggs. Furthermore, at this point everything is alleged, not proven in a court of law. So if we are to have faith in our legal system, they are innocent until proven guilty. This is what I don't like about allegations, they serve very little purpose and in some (many) cases prove to be false allegations. I am not saying the allegations brought against the few employees there are false, im just saying lets wait until we know more when the case goes to trial or is settled.

That being said, your doom and gloom hit piece on "cutting WoW to a skeleton support staff, and let 10.0 run for another 10 years on a handful of servers cheaply" is just another veiled attempt at bashing Blizzard and WoW. WoW is doing much better than you think. The official investor report contradicts everything you said basically.

Also its the summer, the pandemic is ending, people are going out and doing other things than playing video games. User metrics are down across the industry right now. Lastly, and I know this is anecdotal but I log in and I see people everywhere on my servers. Both are "Full" pop servers, and I look at the server list and I see the usual Full / High / Medium population servers just like its been for years. So yeah, I think you and the other "wow is dead / dying" guys are just flat out wrong, which is another reason to be optimistic. Seeing many servers with high / full population and players everywhere is a good sign. When 9.1.5 comes out, it will get an influx of a lot more players, and obviously when 9.2 comes out, many many more.

WoW is far from dying / dead, and thats positive news.

[Aerisot]

I realized something about a month ago.

1) Raids no longer matter other than story

2) I can save a whole lot of money by just waiting until that patches story campaign is concluded, subbing for a month, and I can do literally all the content of that patch in less than a week.

3) These quality of life changes are nice, but do not really get me anything in the long run, I was already semi bored with the game, and now it is looking like 9.2 will not be until Feb/Mar, if not later, that is about $90-$105 of saved money, which is pretty significant.

I am not saying there is a lack of content to do, but as someone that has played nearly every day for 17 years, there isn't a whole lot I haven't done, or care to do.

I'm not here to argue wither the game is in a good state or wither it is in a bad state, I'm just here to express that, if you have been playing Shadowlands since the beginning, Spending an extra $90-$105 during a patch that you have already played all the content, killed all the bosses, and got exalted on all the reputations is pretty significant, when you could just stop your sub, save that money and come back when new content comes out.

[Falkeshall]

Any and all evidence shows that pandering to this group of people is bad for business. Hopefully Blizzard will see that soon enough

Which group of people, specifically?

[Empower]

I think the biggest problem is that the most obvious, direct ,and easy way to ensure the game improves is to flat out fire and trim down the development/design staff.

It sounds counter productive I know but anyone who had a hand in producing torghast, covenants, renowned,conduits, the legendary system, domination shards, and the maw are better off not touching the game at all.

We are at the point where ripping parts of the game out offers a more rewarding and enjoyable experience then having them remain even if nothing fills that gap.

Just far to many lofty ideas and far to few skillful people in the office at blizz.

[Echo of Soul]

I think the biggest problem is that the most obvious, direct ,and easy way to ensure the game improves is to flat out fire and trim down the development/design staff.

It sounds counter productive I know but anyone who had a hand in producing torghast, covenants, renowned,conduits, the legendary system, domination shards, and the maw are better off not touching the game at all.

We are at the point where ripping parts of the game out offers a more rewarding and enjoyable experience then having them remain even if nothing fills that gap.

Just far to many lofty ideas and far to few skillful people in the office at blizz.

That's a very good point. All those systems you mentioned can feel very daunting and exhausting, deterring players who just want to "play the game".
I know that if I was to return I wouldn't touch any of them, and if they turned out to be mandatory I'd quit.

[Exkrementor]

What do you enjoy about the current game? Do you like raiding, dungeons? What would be something you would like to engage in, in the game?

I enjoy nothing about retail anymore, thats why I dont play it. I enjoyed raiding. I just wanna raid with as much characters as possible. But to enjoy that class design has to be fun and the raids need to be not annoying. I was a fairly high level mythic raider in retail but to be honest I didnt like the ultra hard fights like Fallen Avatar or the tentacle raid in BFA that nobody did and I forgot the name of.

[Kalocy Jim]

I enjoy nothing about retail anymore, thats why I dont play it. I enjoyed raiding. I just wanna raid with as much characters as possible. But to enjoy that class design has to be fun and the raids need to be not annoying. I was a fairly high level mythic raider in retail but to be honest I didnt like the ultra hard fights like Fallen Avatar or the tentacle raid in BFA that nobody did and I forgot the name of.

Do you currently raid on 1 or 2 characters? Class design is pretty well balanced right now, so it would be a good time to get into raiding. The SL raids are also really good too. Lots of cool new mechanics.

[Soon-TM]

It sounds counter productive I know but anyone who had a hand in producing torghast, covenants, renowned,conduits, the legendary system, domination shards, and the maw are better off not touching the game at all.

Indeed. In some cases, at least, less is more, so if devs are hellbent (as they seem to be) on keeping the game as a glorified raid simulator, then they should better drop the most annoying and pointless features. Sometimes I think about coming back, but then I remember that I will have to go through tedious, cheap !@#$ like Korthia or Choreghast, shell out a metric ton of $$ to buy leggo bases, do the same 8 dungeons ad nauseam while raid is on lockout... Bleh.

[Niwes]

He's trying to say, "it's okay now, you can all come back, Blizzard has changed I swear".

The mass exodus probably hit him very hard and he wants, no need people to come back to the game because he himself is incapable of leaving.

You can see it very clearly, he's agreeing with everyone who has something positive to say while brushing off everyone negative as someone who quit years ago but who can't let go and come here out of hate.
It's a pretty basic tactic when you want to paint a prettier picture, you make sure that every one knows that everything ugly isn't actually part of the picture.

This is a "please come back" thread, not a back and forth. It's blind fanboyism, not a nuanced discussion.

yes, ofc. but what he gets out of that? for him personally? no one is so stupid and believes he can „convince“ some inet jerks to come back, to save his beloved game (not talking bout me, i am still subbed at the moment, since 16 years, but it gets harder and harder… thats why I complain). and even when he convince every mmoc user its like a drop in the water. i cant really follow the rationality in that mindset, tbh.