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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The dreadlords "working for the Jailer the whole time" is pretty darn confusing when you think back to the Arthas WCIII arc and Kel'Thuzad (who also works for the Jailer) whispering for Arthas not to trust them, because they are the Lich King's (also pawn of the Jailer)'s Jailers.

    Wat.
    While I'm not saying it doesn't make it awkward, its also important to realize characters don't have omnipotent knowledge. The Dread Lords didn't get into their positions of power by the Jailor making sure every minion of his know the Dread Lords work for him. KT could have simply not known and its not like the Dread Lords have a super reliable reputation.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Can I get an amen?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Because they're the most popular Horde races, and Blizz panders hard to the Horde playerbase.
    Maybe because they gave two of the most popular Alliance-originating races to the Horde...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    The 1st gen Forsaken were killed and instantly raised by the Plague, their souls never left their bodies.
    The 2nd gen were corpses raised by the Val'kyr under Sylvanas, so we can assume that they were snatched by mawsworn kyrians and delivered to the corpse.
    Yeah, but what were they doing when they were dead, before they get resurrected?

  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral Psychotrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    More confusing is how people find every excuse to post about their disdain for the direction of the story and the WoW development team in every single thread they post in, and still wonder why people attack them for it. It's becoming the "how do you know somebody is a vegan? They won't stfu about it" meme.
    I dont think anyone has attacked me for this thread so I have no clue what you're even talking about, bud.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    Night Elf mages.

    It'd be like going to Israel and seeing them all tucking into full English breakfasts.
    Now that the arcane has no connection to the nether or demons anymore, do we have any idea why night elves disdain overuse of the arcane? Seems like they built that entire aspect of their culture around nothing. At the very least their reasoning seems much less compelling. Why does the arcane attract demons in the first place? Is that still canon?
    Last edited by Psychotrip; 2021-09-15 at 01:10 AM.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    While I'm not saying it doesn't make it awkward, its also important to realize characters don't have omnipotent knowledge. The Dread Lords didn't get into their positions of power by the Jailor making sure every minion of his know the Dread Lords work for him. KT could have simply not known and its not like the Dread Lords have a super reliable reputation.
    What would've made the most sense is just saying they were opportunists. They were kicked out by Denathrius, joined up with the Legion, then with the Legion gone came crawling back, pretending to have been totally in deep cover the whole time, you guys, please take us back! D:
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  6. #46
    Why the kyrians are getting souls to the shadowlands, i am unable to understand why the kyrians are doing that, either they didnt knew the arbiter is broken, which is probably even worse than just being stupid and not caring about it at all.

    Who thougth that it would be a good idea to make the maw the default fate of souls if the arbiter does not judge them, why not make a special zone in the shadowlands to store souls while the arbiter doesnt work.

    Shadowlands itself is just a lorecrap destroyer expansion, the more you think about it the worse it becomes


    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    Now that the arcane has no connection to the nether or demons anymore, do we have any idea why night elves disdain overuse of the arcane? Seems like they built that entire aspect of their culture around nothing. At the very least their reasoning seems much less compelling. Why does the arcane attract demons in the first place? Is that still canon?
    I guess arcane attracts fel the same way life attracts death, they are enemies, i think the demons did find planets thanks to arcane magic used in that world, that is why the nelves forbid it until they realized there are more races in the world using it so it didnt matter anymore if they didnt use it.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    I dont think anyone has attacked me for this thread so I have no clue what you're even talking about, bud.

    Oddly enough, you aren’t the only person in this thread!
    Originally Posted by Hulk Hogan
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  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral Psychotrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Oddly enough, you aren’t the only person in this thread!
    You didnt quote anyone, so I assumed you were responding to the OP. Not sure why you have to be so snarky about this.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  9. #49
    So, why do souls turn into their covenant regardless of living race (ie that Tauren having trouble), but Uther is just blue Uther?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    So, why do souls turn into their covenant regardless of living race (ie that Tauren having trouble), but Uther is just blue Uther?
    Because Marketing covenant demanded that he should be recognizable.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    So, why do souls turn into their covenant regardless of living race (ie that Tauren having trouble), but Uther is just blue Uther?
    Storywise Uther couldn't finish his transformation due to his soul being wounded, marketing wise you keep a recognizable face that looks good in commercials.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    Storywise Uther couldn't finish his transformation due to his soul being wounded, marketing wise you keep a recognizable face that looks good in commercials.
    Uther is a bad example. Vash is the correct Example.
    Because the logic that Vash puts in should apply many other characters.

    As elf she was one more, as Naga was a general she would rather be a naga than be a random undead.
    I'm sure most great warriors prefer to be themselves with their body. With whom they fought so many times.

    PS: SL seems to be written as being just the afterlife of Azeroth. That's why Teldrazzil is important that's why the only recognizable ones are from Azeroth. But at some point it occurred to them that it had to be the one in the entire universe.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-09-16 at 12:35 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    PS: SL seems to be written as being just the afterlife of Azeroth. That's why Teldrazzil is important that's why the only recognizable ones are from Azeroth. But at some point it occurred to them that it had to be the one in the entire universe.
    We only recognize the people from Azeroth because we have only been to a few planets, plus Garrosh was there and he died on AU Dreanor.

  14. #54
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    That Sylvanas is still alive.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    Now that the arcane has no connection to the nether or demons anymore, do we have any idea why night elves disdain overuse of the arcane? Seems like they built that entire aspect of their culture around nothing. At the very least their reasoning seems much less compelling. Why does the arcane attract demons in the first place? Is that still canon?
    The reason behind banishing mages from elven society was because they did experiments with the well of eternity which attracted the legion and especially sargeras himself who wanted to use the well as a portal. They basically blamed the ones able to wield (arcane)magic for the sundering and downfall of their empire. So thats kind of reasonable for a race that has always been very alligned with nature and the one time they discover something else they get annihilated.
    With cata they allowed them back because malfurion worked with mages from other races all the time anyway i guess.

    So in my headcanon its not so much that demons are drawn to arcane, but the legion is drawn to signs of life in the cosmos and the elves put a huge "(not so much) intelligent life here! Portal service for free too!" sign out there.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    So, why do souls turn into their covenant regardless of living race (ie that Tauren having trouble), but Uther is just blue Uther?
    Not just him. Every Venthyr is an ugly soul vampire and every soul in their care is a featureless ghost, but Kael is still Kael with a new paintjob and Garrosh is still Garrosh. Ysera is still Ysera. Maldraxxus is the worst offender, with every Baron and Margrave otherwise looking like body parts stapled together but Draka, Vashj and Alexandros looking like more glamorous green Death Knight versions of themselves. At least Kel'Thuzad can be excused by already being a Lich.

    In general Azeroth is IMO too important to the Shadowlands. Thinking about it, every single major lieutenant of the Jailer- Helya, Mueh'zala, KT, Sylvanas, all come from there in some form despite the guy having countless souls coming from who knows how many worlds to choose from. When the dust settles in Maldraxxus damn near every Baron and Margrave still standing is from Azeroth with the exception of Sin'dane. Teldrassil is treated as a major game-changer but in the grand scale of things it was one disaster happening to one race on one world, it should be a drop in the bucket against the thousands that must die every second across the universe. To say nothing of Mawduin of course. It really does feel like the afterlife of just Azeroth, rather than that of the universe entire (hell, multiverse even, but I'm not opening that can of worms for the sake of my sanity).
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    This started as a reddit post and it got pretty popular so I thought I'd share it here:

    TL;DR What are some aspects of WoW's newer lore that still confuses you? How can we explain it? Is it even worth trying? Or should we just accept that we've effectively been in a new universe since the end of Legion?

    As the title says, I'm curious about certain aspects of wow's newer lore, particularly the things that directly contradict what we THOUGHT we knew about the universe.

    I was an avid rper in WoW until a couple years ago when Chronicle came out. In my opinion, it just changed so many core aspects of the lore that I kind of stopped caring about it. Still, every now and then I poke my head back in just to catch up on the lore. It only seems to have gotten more confusing.

    Obviously, Warcraft is no stranger to retcons, but the core worldbuilding was pretty stable between WC3 until around Legion. I feel like the "cosmic forces" introduced in Chronicle really threw everything off the rails, at least for me.

    But if I had to narrow down the things that make me scratch my head, it would have to be the new lore on Arcane magic, and how its portrayed as a force of order and the opposite of Fel magic.

    Arcane magic was portrayed as chaotic from the RTS games until at least Legion. It was actually a core part of the lore. Originally, it was described as pure magic from the Nether, with Fel being Arcane in either its most corrupt or its purest form (depending on your perspective). This is expanded upon in the now non-canon WoW RPG, but playing WoW classic makes it very clear that the magic lore was intended to be canon.

    This is why Archimonde mocks Dalaran for "stealing our fire", its the original reason why demons are attracted to the arcane (they're sustained by it), it's why Dalaran kept getting attacked by demons and why the Guardians Of Tirisfal formed, its why various arcane themed bosses are chaotic in nature (Anomalous, for example), and why its described as being addictive and mutagenic. Its why mages were described in vanilla wow as drawing their powers from the nether.

    The arcane makes no sense as a force of order. Its just a lazy retcon so they could establish this new "cosmic force" nonsense. Maybe they just dont have the nuance to explain why titans utilize it as well? It just contradicts so many aspects of classic wow lore that its hard to rationalize.

    Even the wowpedia article borders on nonsense at this point, waffling between describing it as volatile, unstable, orderly, or simply as pure magic (which begs the question of what magic even IS now in this post cosmic force lore).

    Speaking of which, I also find myself wondering exactly what separates these cosmic forces aside from aesthetics.

    Death seems pretty lively, and more centered on domination than the act of not being alive (what does death even mean aside from existing in the shadowlands)? How is UNdeath a force of death? Isnt it a middle ground between life and death? If necromancy is simply death magic, then why are so many of its spells disease-based? Diseases are living things. Death magic literally creates life.

    Life seems pretty deadly if you consider Elune as a life goddess (in the old lore she wasnt solely tied to any of these forces since they werent so rigid beforehand). Maybe they should've named it "nature" instead? Life just feels too specific and limiting.

    Light just seems just as intent on domination as Death, but its glowy instead of spooky? It seems to leave things pretty lifeless as well when its overused. Void seems pretty chaotic, and I'm pretty sure there are old gods of chaos (c'thun) and Death (Yog) unless thats been retconned.

    Most of the forces seem to want roughly the same thing (domination) in slightly different ways, making them feel less like primal, fundamental forces and more like petty warring states with different colored flags. And that's ignoring just how much of this contradicts the lore as presented in vanilla.

    So what are some aspects of the "new" lore that still confuses you? How do you explain these changes in universe? Were our characters simply misinformed? How do you make sense of the cosmic forces, their powers, and their motivations? How do we explain the Jailer and his influence on the story since the formation of the legion all the way to warcraft 3? How did no one catch onto this millennia-long cosmic scheme?
    You pretty much hit the nail on the head there, though i'd argue it's less confusing and more inconsistent - both with the past and with itself.
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  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    What was the point of introducing the concept/existence of 'Void Lords' as the true 'big bads' of WoW and as a result reduce the worth of Old Gods only to then completely invalidate them and randomly introduce an even 'truer bigger bad' in the form of the Jailer with zero grounding or lead up to as the 'ultimate threat able to recreate the universe' in WoW that has totally been behind everything and is just succeeding no matter how stupid the justification or set up is.

    Oh also why they're so opposed to actually exploring other worlds that they keep establishing in their universe and instead focus on hyping cosmic forces they never intend to properly explain while we diddle about smacking each other in the face on Azeroth. I mean we've basically gone to one small part of Argus (which let's be frank was a smaller outlands) and Draenor twice (again as outlands falling apart and small section of it) and that's it.
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  19. #59
    how all these figures keep getting leadership out of nowhere.

    Gazlowe was a figure of vague influence from the Steemweedle Cartel... now he's the Trade Prince running the Bilgewater Cartel.
    Lillian Voss was explicitely NOT a member of the forsaken but somehow joined in and became the defacto leader over established characters that were previously running prominent organizations in the Undercity...
    Calia Menethil.... in general
    Valeera Sanguinar hanging out in horde controlled areas NOT sneaking around (honestly I think Shaw would be a better fit or... the Wolf)

    How is undeath intended to work

  20. #60
    I agree in regards to the magic lore or more specifically arcane magic. The older magic system as explained by the Warcraft RPG was much more interesting and didn't create unnecessary contradictions. It's baffling how they thought their current magic system is superior the corebooks.

    Undeath as a type of death magic instead of arcane/nether/demonic magic is also another very stupid and confusing retcon. The whole point of Undeath is that it's an unnatural liminal state between life and death that is imposed on a soul to prevent it from leaving this world while not being fully part of it anymore. The weird, hamfisted explanation that it's just how the Maldraxxi make new bodies for themselves (because apparently you need bodies in the afterlife) is some of the most retarded world building I've ever seen.

    The more I think about modern Warcraft lore, the less I want to think about modern Warcraft lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    I'm not saying that it's perfect, there's stuff I don't like, but the old lore had many issues as well and I personally think they expanded on the right things.
    What were some of the many issues the old lore had?
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-09-16 at 05:13 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

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