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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    Neither horde nor the alliance get to pick their leaders. It isn't a democracy, and there are tons of members of each side that are either directly a part of each faction or live under their rule, being associated with the faction directly, that had nothing to do with the atrocities of either faction. You don't make a populace suffer for their leaders unless they had direction action in the crimes. Simply put, no.
    I agree

    We didn't punish the German civilians after WWII or the Japanese or the Italians, punishing the general populace makes you no better than the leader who perpetrated the crimes. and by punish I mean slapping them in the Haig and executing/imprisoning them.

    nor the US people for the thousands of civilians killed in Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

    Punishing the general population for the crimes committed by their leaders never works nor is it right or just.

    I see no reason to punish the Horde or the Alliance for acts committed by their leaders during war.
    Last edited by Addiena; 2021-09-14 at 05:06 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    Neither horde nor the alliance get to pick their leaders. It isn't a democracy, and there are tons of members of each side that are either directly a part of each faction or live under their rule, being associated with the faction directly, that had nothing to do with the atrocities of either faction. You don't make a populace suffer for their leaders unless they had direction action in the crimes. Simply put, no.
    From a lore standpoint, i'm thinking the horde as a faction, the whole faction should pay some sort of war tax for the crimes they participated in.

    Countries do it all the time when the losing side loses, they are made to pay some sort of war tax.

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    I'd say a Nuremberg type of trial where both Alliance and Horde gets sanctions for each, and each do reparations for the other

    well yeah sure Horde bad, but the Alliance is still yet to be held accountable for any of their undesirable actions
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  4. #44
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    I say no and sylvanas isnt the villian in shadowlands from my viewpoint its the jailor
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    We didn't punish the German civilians after WWII
    Yeah about that... Look sometime into how the Allies raped German women and (especially the Soviets) murdered plenty of civilians.

    No one is saying punish civilians, particularly since the Horde barely has any. It's essentially an army with a vestigial society attached. That army carried out atrocities, and just walks away blaming one guy. Since you brought the historical example up, the Nuremburg Trials didn't say "Eh, it's all that guy with the mustache, you guys had no choice."

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Oh no, its the " Alliance is so boring and drags the plot down by being the good bois" type.
    Complete with the usual "Evil drives the story, but DON'T YOU DARE CALL MUH HORDE EVIL!", I take it?

    P.S.

    Also classic "Teldrassil wasnt real! Touch the grass! Go take a walk nerd!" but then "PUNISHING HORDE NPCs IS LITERALLY LIKE SIZZLING MY BALLS OVER FIRE! IT INSULTS ME PERSONALLY AND ATTACKS THE REAL PLAYERS!"
    Mmmm, MMMM. Nothing like a piping hot plate of Horde hippo grits, eh?

  6. #46
    If we go that way, we must punish NElves for Sundering, satyrs, worgens, war agains trolls, yes? Azshara was their leader.
    Or genocide BE from Garithos?
    I dont think we should do that. Or its just for Horde races, that need to be punished?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    I agree

    We didn't punish the German civilians after WWII or the Japanese or the Italians, punishing the general populace makes you no better than the leader who perpetrated the crimes. and by punish I mean slapping them in the Haig and executing/imprisoning them.

    nor the US people for the thousands of civilians killed in Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

    Punishing the general population for the crimes committed by their leaders never works nor is it right or just.

    I see no reason to punish the Horde or the Alliance for acts committed by their leaders during war.
    I mean... You do know that Germany was sliced in two, East and West between the allies and the soviets ?

    And that Japan was occupied by the US who directed their economic and social reforms ? Using their unions to overthrow the feudal leaders, then disbanding those unions when they started to turn commies ?

    Not saying we should apply those real life things to the warcraft universe though. I don't believe for one second that the Alliance has any capacity to impose anything on the Horde. Just like I don't believe the Night elves actually having the capacity to prevent the Horde from passing their lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    Remember it was Afrasiabi who changed Garrosh into the villain so if you think the horde is evil you support a sex offender
    Outstanding move. Very gymnastic.
    Last edited by DatToffer; 2021-09-14 at 07:18 AM.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    Teldrasil is not real, is a virtual place in a videogame.
    So like, Teldrassil didn't matter, because it was a virtual place? Ye great argument there. Participating in a burning alive of 10k virtual civilians done by a virtual faction in a virtual world doesn't matter, because burned place was virtual.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    So like, Teldrassil didn't matter, because it was a virtual place? Ye great argument there. Participating in a burning alive of 10k virtual civilians done by a virtual faction in a virtual world doesn't matter, because burned place was virtual.
    where are you picking that numbers? Or its not impotant, so we could say, like 10 MILLIONS of NElves died that night? If I recall there was like 982 or so.
    Not excuses burning, but making it like total genocide of NElves, come on. And for that they are bringing them back from ardenweald (mostly confirmed).
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2021-09-14 at 08:37 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Cost of war dosent matter when dealing with faction as persistently aggressive as Horde. Btw, in our real life history Prussia was literally deleted from existence and disbanded because of their hyper-warlike culture since they were deemed too much of a pain in the ass after world war.

    But its not about that. What it is about is that Alliance can either die fighting, or die by a thousand cuts as Horde keeps attacking them and then evading responsibility. Or they can fight and win, nearly dying but removing the persistent threat for good.
    It would be a twist I'll grant you that much, but it wouldn't be very good and would go directly against the established characterisation of the Aliance, which unfortunately is "Anduin knows best! We're anime protagonists!".

    My point in that comment was that the Aliance was not in a realistic position to do that according to the narrative, unlike the Allies, who saw the Axis surrender unconditionally, at the end of WW1. So even IF Anduin went completely 180, on his eternal optimist peacemonger character it wouldn't end well for him, because the only consequences to be had there are either tolerated or self inflicted by the Horde. (It's what it is not what I'd have preferred, at any rate)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    If we go that way, we must punish NElves for Sundering, satyrs, worgens, war agains trolls, yes? Azshara was their leader.
    Or genocide BE from Garithos?
    I dont think we should do that. Or its just for Horde races, that need to be punished?
    Funny story: The ones who stood with Azshara *were* punished, either killed or exiled (After which they eventually, with some meandering, became Blood elves), Garithos and his forces were also killed, so when are the members of the Horde going to get punished for enthusiastically going along with all their oh-so-evil leaders?

    That's the part that gets me, the Horde soldiers don't attack because disobeying orders is punishable (By death, most likely), no, they're puppy-dog eager to do it, the Horde up in Stormsong valley (And especially Brennadam village) gleefully kill anybody they can catch (Let's not go into all the stuff they do in Darkshore and Ashenvale), but when they are defeated, they hide behind their leaders, which makes them, besides downright evil, cowards as well, when consequences come knocking, they're running for cover, ironic given their "Strength and honor"-facade...

  12. #52
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    that isn't how it works, u punish whoever gave order, because most grunts if they oppose leaders they are corpses
    in that sense u need to punish
    also ur bias is so horrible it stench, which 'great war' did horde win in first place? how many more lands alliance should hold? u do know that alliance have most lands in azeroth right, even if horde has the most native race of all azeroth (trolls)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    That's the part that gets me, the Horde soldiers don't attack because disobeying orders is punishable (By death, most likely), no, they're puppy-dog eager to do it, the Horde up in Stormsong valley (And especially Brennadam village) gleefully kill anybody they can catch
    like camp Taurajo? or the dwarven digging site? or Alterac valley?
    heck is there a spot be it alliance or horde where the soldiers don't go kill mode on?
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  13. #53
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    that isn't how it works, u punish whoever gave order, because most grunts if they oppose leaders they are corpses
    in that sense u need to punish
    also ur bias is so horrible it stench, which 'great war' did horde win in first place? how many more lands alliance should hold? u do know that alliance have most lands in azeroth right, even if horde has the most native race of all azeroth (trolls)
    ???

    Of course that's how it works! "I just followed orders" was never a valid excuse. They tried that at Nuremberg, and it didn't work. The only reason why Horde didn't face consequence after BfA was the fact that many Horde NPC's and every Horde player would have to face them, since they all participated. And tell us more how much land Horde and Orcs (since they are the face of the Horde) should own, after they willingly invaded Azeroth for Burning Legion? I really loved how Garrosh decided in Cata that "these lands should belong to the orcs!". Two great wars against Azeroth inhabitants, second genocidal Warchief and some peeps still just can't get it.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  14. #54
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Its always the same alliance fans circlejerking about horde should be punished(yeah dude, like the alliance have enough power in attempting to do so) and straight up cherypicking what the alliance did so far before the devs wanted to whitewash then in a good two shoes faction.

    high levels of delusion, and unawares of all this mess is a blizzard writers fault, not the ingame horde and the alliance that are hostage of the writing team, its unrealistic ask for realistic things in this game, why the horde should be punished for teldrassil when teldrassil should not even happened in the first place?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    like camp Taurajo? or the dwarven digging site? or Alterac valley?
    heck is there a spot be it alliance or horde where the soldiers don't go kill mode on?
    you don't understand, those does not matter because is a "small scale" or just because blizzard swept under the rug, i mean, they invaded the zandalari kingdom and kill their king, but see the mental gymnastic to say it is a vallid thing despite the zandalari not being allied with the horde yet, they think no innocent died there too.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-09-14 at 09:42 AM.

  15. #55
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you don't understand, those does not matter because is a "small scale" or just because blizzard swept under the rug
    Sorry, but "muh Taurajo" has become a meme years ago when Horde players brought it up EVERY TIME Horde does some shit, regardless of magnitude.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  16. #56
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Sorry, but "muh Taurajo" has become a meme years ago when Horde players bring it up EVERY TIME Horde does some shit, regardless of magnitude.
    Why it will not be brought up? it is relevant, same way Alliance always bring up the places the forsaken attacked back in cata too

    It is more mentioned because its one of the stances that taurens were attacked, for no reason, as taurens were not attacking and how it was done.

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Why it will not be brought up? it is relevant, same way Alliance always bring up the places the forsaken attacked back in cata too

    It is more mentioned because its one of the stances that taurens were attacked, for no reason, as taurens were not attacking and how it was done.
    I mean, sure. If you feel it excuses in ANY WAY the Horde doings decade after that. It just boggles my mind how it's always put next to sizzling corpses of nelf citizens burned in service of Great Bad. Fun fact, average players don't even know Taurajo ever existed, all they see is Horde the aggressor and killed civilians from BfA. That faction provoked two major conflicts, produced two main raid bosses and crapton of secondaries to no consequences. Nuff said. But hey, muh Taurajo!
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-09-14 at 09:57 AM.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  18. #58
    sure, right after alliance is made to pay for crimes of their leaders

    hell, making alliance LEADERS pay for THEIR OWN crimes would be enough, sure geting deposed for war crimes is laughable punishment, but when alliance leaders commit war crimes they get no punishment, hell sometimes they actualy get PROMOTED

  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Sorry, but "muh Taurajo" has become a meme years ago when Horde players brought it up EVERY TIME Horde does some shit, regardless of magnitude.
    Half of those examples don't even make sense.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, sure. If you feel it excuses in ANY WAY the Horde doings decade after that. It just boggles my mind how it's always put next to sizzling corpses of nelf citizens burned in service of Great Bad. Fun fact, average players don't even know Taurajo ever existed, all they see is Horde the aggressor and killed civilians from BfA. That faction provoked two major conflicts, produced two main raid bosses and crapton of secondaries. Nuff said. But hey, muh Taurajo!
    not to worry. good chance that it will be genns turn next time around. (like for real who else is left to start the next horde/alliance war?)
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-09-14 at 10:00 AM.

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