Page 8 of 19 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
10
18
... LastLast
  1. #141
    Someone else mentioned an idea of an occupied Orgrimmar, I'm curious about this.

    Like changing the guards around similar to how Korkron were added to undercity in Wrath. Seeing blue tabards walking around Org.

    As a player character....could I.....could I attack those guards? Just imagining an Org where players are constantly killing guards as they spawn. (maybe the level/strength or kinds of guards goes up as they die until riot teams spawn to put down trouble makers? Give people who attack guards a rioter debuff for 10mins and they can either wait it out or pay some arbitrary amount of gold to bribe the guards? Could be entertaining)

    Would other cities have Alliance presences too? Similar to how the US still maintains an airbase in japan, would one of the bluffs in Thunderbluff play host to a Gnomish airfield? What would occupied Horde cities look like if Blizzard did this? (naturally horde players still have to be able to play as they do now so can't just wipe them out (sorry Val).
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2021-09-15 at 03:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    Players should be made to pay for the crimes of NPCs.
    We actually are

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    exagerating what happened, ignoring others and appealing to emmotions will not make your argument better
    I have one, however much you try to dismiss it rather than actually address it. So far, you don't. Do let me know when you care to provide something other than attacking me.

    completely ignoring how orcs lived in peace for hundred of years before the legion coming, cherrypicking evidence as it finest, then claiming what is canon, like i said, your bias is showing.
    By all means, disprove it with canon lore, like oh say "Rise of the Horde". I suspect I'm in for a long wait. I'll help out though. Orcs were always violent brutes, in part due to Draenor being a savage world loaded with threats. The various clans fought each other when they weren't fighting external threats like Gronn, with the gathering at Oshu'gun being the only time all clans could meet in guaranteed peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    To say nothing of the fact that with this mindset, the Scourge was the Horde's fault since the head honcho at the time used to be an Orc.
    Ah but that doesn't count because Hordies say so. It's pure hypocrisy born out of some strange need to prove a video game franchise's villains are not the villains.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2021-09-15 at 05:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Someone else mentioned an idea of an occupied Orgrimmar, I'm curious about this.

    Like changing the guards around similar to how Korkron were added to undercity in Wrath. Seeing blue tabards walking around Org.

    As a player character....could I.....could I attack those guards? Just imagining an Org where players are constantly killing guards as they spawn. (maybe the level/strength or kinds of guards goes up as they die until riot teams spawn to put down trouble makers? Give people who attack guards a rioter debuff for 10mins and they can either wait it out or pay some arbitrary amount of gold to bribe the guards? Could be entertaining)

    Would other cities have Alliance presences too? Similar to how the US still maintains an airbase in japan, would one of the bluffs in Thunderbluff play host to a Gnomish airfield? What would occupied Horde cities look like if Blizzard did this? (naturally horde players still have to be able to play as they do now so can't just wipe them out (sorry Val).

    I actually envisioned an afterwar where the Alliance would have totally crushed the Horde at the start of BFA and started inflicting penalties on them, in order for a new war to never happen again.

    It was a few phases thing, escalating from demilitarization to oppression, with each Horde capital dealing with the consequences.

    Phase 1 - Demilitarization

    Military buildings and forges would be repurposed to serve the Alliance forces of occupation. Most of them being officers who will form "joint patrols" with the Horde forces. Officially, to ensure military cooperation against outer threats but really to get tactical knowledge of the Horde lands.

    The bigger guns and siege engines will be confiscated, and goblin weaponries will be dismantled.

    The research and resources of the Apothecary society will be destroyed, their alchemists hunted down.

    Of course a few prisoners of war might disappear inexplicably, only to be found beaten to death or in underground arenas. Angry soldiers need an outlet for violence, after all.

    Phase 2 - Domination

    Horde soldiers are made into farmers, following the original desire of Thrall to see his people work the ground. Problem is, this time they don't have much choice.

    Any research or scientific initiative from the goblins and undead has to be approved and supervised by gnomes and Alliance researchers.

    The Alliance will establish and patrol authorized paths and roads in Kalimdor for the Horde members to use. Many shamanic and spiritual pilgrimages will be made illegal, because they can't manage this much ground.

    Phase 3 - Acculturation

    Children of the Horde will be taught that fighting is bad and war is evil. There would be a lot of work to make their strong heroes of war appear like monsters. Young trolls and orcs will learn that they are born from bloodthirsty people and that they need to be better. In reality, they will just be shamed for their ancestors history and culture.

    Ancestors cult will be discouraged if not made illegal, and History lessons (from the Alliance point of view of course) will be preferred. Conversion to Light will be progressive. The intention would be to make the Horde adopt the Three Virtues, but in effect it will just push away the other spiritual and shamanistic traditions. Voodoo will be straight up illegal.


    With this, you have many opportunities for the Alliance officers, etc. to abuse their power on every level, despite their leaders having good intentions and trying to put on a good face. The "Holier-than-thou" mentality will lead to gradual oppression, with excuses such as "doing it is best for them" or "for the world".

    You also have a solid basis for identity struggle in the Horde, with their cultures put in danger. And most of all, you actually have reasons for them to unite and fight, for the sole right of existing as they are.

    Now for the consequences on the different Horde cities and lands :

    Lordaeron : Repopulated by living humans with a goal of restoring the lands. Remaining undead got the short end of the deal and will be gradually pushed to the crypts and cemeteries... Where they are said to belong.

    Orgrimmar : After being demilitarized, the city will be occupied by humans. Grunts will be converted to agriculture, those who oppose it will alternate between confining and supervised fights in arena, to express their bloodlust. The line between hard labor and slavery, supervised and underground fights will become blurry as things go by.

    Mulgore : With their paths blocked or patrolled and the great door of Mulgore under Alliance surveillance, the tauren are all but officially parked in their land as in a reserve. Those who are seen trying to use unauthorized road are met with force. Any traveling tauren will be controlled with his wares.

    Echo Isles : With voodoo made illegal, Trolls are under the supervision of the Lightforged who will see to their conversion to the Light.

    Azshara : Night elves have retaken the place and pushed the goblins out. The Harbor has been dismantled and gnomes are now recycling all this metal.

    Silvermoon : The last free stronghold of the Horde, although it is under the surveillance of a very Alliance-inclined faction of the Kirin tor who will make sure the blood elves don't fall into their old demonic ways. On the brighter side, the Dead Scar will be dealt with faster and better.

    Suramar : The shaldorei will gradually be pressured to review their engagements and join the Alliance.

    Pandaren : I don't know, but the huojin philosophy won't be regarded so well, leading pandaren from Orgrimmar to become wanderers again.
    Last edited by DatToffer; 2021-09-15 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #145
    What I think The Horde should do:
    Pay the compensations. Provide Alliance with manpower and supplies to help them rebuild what was destroyed. Give back some conquered territory. Provide them with general assistance if they need troops, weapons, healers etc. Couple heads should roll here and there to make some more angry Alliance citizens happy. Standard stuff.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @DatToffer

    How that would work for the Horde players from the game play perspective? Seems like a lot people would just quit the game.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    What I think The Horde should do:
    Pay the compensations. Provide Alliance with manpower and supplies to help them rebuild what was destroyed. Give back some conquered territory. Provide them with general assistance if they need troops, weapons, healers etc. Couple heads should roll here and there to make some more angry Alliance citizens happy. Standard stuff.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @DatToffer

    How that would work for the Horde players from the game play perspective? Seems like a lot people would just quit the game.
    Well... In BFA we get a VIP pass in Sylvanas team because of all our achievements. Easy to imagine that we also get a pass here, as an ambassador of the peace. First we do quests to try and bring that peace. But then we encounter the bad shits and start taking quests from the oppressed people and gradually join a resistance. Protecting caravans on illegal paths, helping Calia advocate for undead rights, etc.

  7. #147
    That could work. Some guerrilla warfare, ambushes, pacts with unhappy Alliance members, though the actual Alliance players would complain that hordies get all new kind of game play while they are stuck with more of the same. Unless of course Blizzard would make it so Alliance players found out about they own faction evil plots and decided to secretly help us.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    That could work. Some guerrilla warfare, ambushes, pacts with unhappy Alliance members, though the actual Alliance players would complain that hordies get all new kind of game play while they are stuck with more of the same. Unless of course Blizzard would make it so Alliance players found out about they own faction evil plots and decided to secretly help us.
    Yeah. If the Alliance starts going bad, they can always act against the bad guys. Except they won't be able to stop all the bad. Only the illegally bad. The morally bad that will be widely accepted, they'll see and enforce.

  9. #149
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I have one, however much you try to dismiss it rather than actually address it. So far, you don't. Do let me know when you care to provide something other than attacking me.
    it was already adressed, you are trying to exaggerate the events, ignore others and, appeal to emotions, usually a weak fallacy trying to blow things out of proportion.

    By all means, disprove it with canon lore, like oh say "Rise of the Horde". I suspect I'm in for a long wait. I'll help out though. Orcs were always violent brutes, in part due to Draenor being a savage world loaded with threats. The various clans fought each other when they weren't fighting external threats like Gronn, with the gathering at Oshu'gun being the only time all clans could meet in guaranteed peace.
    The canon is that orcs lived in peace for hundreds of years with the draenei and others who didn't touch then, note that they only attacked the races who attacked then, like you even mentioned Groms and ogres

    If orcs were the bloodthirsty and violent brutes that only thinking on murder and rape like you claim then to be, they would be attacking the draenei the moment they land on the planet, plus, they would be trying to kill everything else as well, and that is just a lie.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah. If the Alliance starts going bad, they can always act against the bad guys. Except they won't be able to stop all the bad. Only the illegally bad. The morally bad that will be widely accepted, they'll see and enforce.
    That's a good idea and certainly better than another Mega Demon Titan Void Flying Beaver that will this time reshape the multiverse and of course was behind it all ALL ALONG.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it was already adressed, you are trying to exaggerate the events, ignore others and, appeal to emotions, usually a weak fallacy trying to blow things out of proportion.
    You didn't address anything. You're simply trying to characterize my arguments, following your usual pattern of "ignore substance, scream bias" when you don't have an argument.

    The canon is that orcs lived in peace for hundreds of years with the draenei and others who didn't touch then, note that they only attacked the races who attacked then, like you even mentioned Groms and ogres
    I notice you carefully dodged how they fought each other.

    If orcs were the bloodthirsty and violent brutes that only thinking on murder and rape like you claim then to be, they would be attacking the draenei the moment they land on the planet, plus, they would be trying to kill everything else as well, and that is just a lie.
    Hmmm, where did the goalposts go? Oh, I see, you moved them and tried to put words in my mouth.

    I haven't said one thing that isn't backed by canon. Yet again, tough shit if you don't like that canon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's not hard for the Alliance to be the good guys when the parts of the Horde that want the war are fairly consistently shown to be blood-hungry barbarians at best and genocidal mad scientist undead at worst. Even without Saint Anduin at the helm, the likes of Varian or Tyrande at their angriest and most aggressive are boy scouts compared to the worst of the Horde.
    I'm looking at it from a creative writing perspective. It's perfectly fine to have one side more noble and good aligned, while the other is more vicious and self interested, whilst still making a good narrative, for both sides of the story, where they both think they're doing the right thing, from their specific perspective. Hero of their own story and all that. This has been missing recently.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    I'm looking at it from a creative writing perspective. It's perfectly fine to have one side more noble and good aligned, while the other is more vicious and self interested, whilst still making a good narrative, for both sides of the story, where they both think they're doing the right thing, from their specific perspective. Hero of their own story and all that. This has been missing recently.
    No arguments there, but since after 16 years of WoW and two full-blown faction wars Blizzard has proven completely unable to do this, I don't expect it to happen anymore. The definition of insanity and all that. In-universe they treat the faction conflict as a vehicle for soap opera drama and Horde villain batting for the purposes of moving the plat along and creating raid bosses, while out of universe it's a marketing tool they bust out from time to time when there's a need to "bring the war back to Warcraft" as if we were having tea and biscuits with the Legion or something.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    it's a marketing tool they bust out from time to time when there's a need to "bring the war back to Warcraft" as if we were having tea and biscuits with the Legion or something.
    There's no shortage of people who think the idiotic stalemate of the faction conflict is the core of Warcraft, because somehow we haven't moved on from WC1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  15. #155
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    14,775
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Countries do it all the time when the losing side loses, they are made to pay some sort of war tax.
    Reparations would be quite pointless. A single Alliance kingdom such as Ironforge has more wealth and industry than the entire Horde combined. The Alliance is made up of multiple such kingdoms. There is nothing the Horde could do to make a "meaingful" contribution to the Alliance. Even becoming slaves to the Alliance would be pointless, as the Horde only consists of a few thousand refugees, while the Alliance has a population of hundreds of thousands to millions of people. The physical strength of the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Ogres, Hobgoblins, etc, is meaningless because the Alliance already has heavy machinery and golems to do the heavy lifting.

    The Alliance neither wants nor needs the Horde's help. The Alliance wants nothing more than to never see their wretched hides ever again. The biggest service the Horde can do the Alliance is to stop attacking them unprovoked and to just keep their filthy paws to themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah about that... Look sometime into how the Allies raped German women and (especially the Soviets) murdered plenty of civilians.
    I don't think any humans or dwarves or Draenei would find orcs or tauren or trolls to be sexually attractive. They just want to go home and see the beautiful human girls again. I guess you might find one or two fetishists out there but they are not the norm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Just like I don't believe the Night elves actually having the capacity to prevent the Horde from passing their lands.
    Depends on which iteration of the Night Elves you are talking about. The original depiction of the Night Elves in WC3 were an empire unto their own that rivalled the entirety of the Eastern Kingdoms combined. They could have wiped the Horde off of the face of the map if they wanted to. Grommash says as much.

    The Night Elves were ruined by WoW. They never should have joined the Alliance in the first place. They had nothing in common with the Eastern Kingdoms and neither had anything to gain from each other. WoW makes the Night Elves look way weaker than they actually were. WC3 Night Elves would have never lost the War of Thorns. The Horde would've never made it further than Ashenvale and then would have been promptly had their throats torn out by nightsabers and druids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Funny story: The ones who stood with Azshara *were* punished, either killed or exiled (After which they eventually, with some meandering, became Blood elves), Garithos and his forces were also killed, so when are the members of the Horde going to get punished for enthusiastically going along with all their oh-so-evil leaders?

    That's the part that gets me, the Horde soldiers don't attack because disobeying orders is punishable (By death, most likely), no, they're puppy-dog eager to do it, the Horde up in Stormsong valley (And especially Brennadam village) gleefully kill anybody they can catch (Let's not go into all the stuff they do in Darkshore and Ashenvale), but when they are defeated, they hide behind their leaders, which makes them, besides downright evil, cowards as well, when consequences come knocking, they're running for cover, ironic given their "Strength and honor"-facade...
    Horde "honor" means an orc standing around being sad about committing murder, but still doing it anyway. Goes all the way back to Durotan in Rise of the Horde, being sad about murdering Draenei children but still doing it anyway.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    If that's the case, should the Alliance be made to pay the Undead for Lordaeron and Arthas? Don't even get me started on the Elves either.
    Arthas didn't create the forsaken. The Lich King created the environment where this could happen. The Alliance had nothing to do with the creation of the forsaken. But Garrosh, Sylvanas, all the atrocities they committed, they acted of their own volition. They accepted the power of the old gods, they allied themselves with the jailer, they freely and willfully committed those acts, and their horde followed them.

    If it were up to me, all Orcs would be eradicated from the face of Azeroth. And not only that, I would hunt every last one of them on other worlds and completely exterminate the race all together. The same could be said of the forsaken. Following blindly your leader deserves punishment. Punishment by eternal death.

    Also, while we are at it, Lorderaon doesn't and shouldn't belong to the forsaken. It is an Alliance kingdom. It rightfully belongs to the Alliance. I really hope in future expansions, the Alliance clean up the mess that Sylvanas did to "her own city", and it is claimed and retaken for the Alliance.

  17. #157
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    14,775
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    even if horde has the most native race of all azeroth (trolls)
    Ugh. Don't get me started on the "ackshually, elves are descended from trolls!" retcon. Night Elves were the first race on Azeroth.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    like camp Taurajo? or the dwarven digging site? or Alterac valley?
    heck is there a spot be it alliance or horde where the soldiers don't go kill mode on?
    Those incidents were the exception, not the norm. Camp Taurajo was an accident based off of faulty intelligence, and when the commander realized what was going on he tried to allow as many civilians to escape as possible. The Dwarves were pricks and got what they deserved. Alterac Valley belongs to the human kingdoms. The Frostwolves are at fault for trying to stay there, rather than following Thrall to Kalimdor. The Alliance does not commit mass murder or atrocities on a regular basis like the Horde does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Sorry, but "muh Taurajo" has become a meme years ago when Horde players brought it up EVERY TIME Horde does some shit, regardless of magnitude.

    Good meme

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    sure, right after alliance is made to pay for crimes of their leaders

    hell, making alliance LEADERS pay for THEIR OWN crimes would be enough, sure geting deposed for war crimes is laughable punishment, but when alliance leaders commit war crimes they get no punishment, hell sometimes they actualy get PROMOTED
    And what crimes have the Alliance leaders committed? Do tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Fat chance. Genn already said his main beef is with Sylvi. Also, I don't think Blizz will do a big faction conflict ever again.
    Too bad he'll never get catharsis for his son being killed, his kingdom being invaded and blighted, his people being enslaved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    The tiredness of the whole racial conflict makes me say no. Leave it, move on, let the Horde be ruled by a council now so the power never again rests with a single crazy.
    Problem is that in the Shadows Rising book, you have a lot of braindead morons on the council, like those Mag'har guys who were roaring for yet another war with the Alliance.

    The Horde needs its barbarian mentality deprogrammed out of it. If they can't do it on their own, then maybe a little napalm might help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Applying collective guilt and putting the Horde into occupation so it can break out later would have been a good angle to go for after Mists. Give the Alliance a win, let the Horde show back up, shake up the status quo. Not so much after BFA given how the power balance was a lot different.

    It's a story the game hasn't done before through WoW and it would be entirely in keeping with the limitations of the setting. Swap some guards, make it a side plot, have the Horde reform when the Alliance begins to strain under fighting the baddie alone, classic stuff.
    Didn't we already do that story, though? The Alliance beat the Horde in WC2. Lord of the Clans and WC3 is ostensibly about Thrall trying overcome the ghosts of the Horde's past, dissolving the clan system, trying to restructure a nomadic barbarian society into a settled nation like Lordaeron, and telling people "don't be warmongering assholes". But then in WoW they're back to their old warmongering tendencies and he hands the reigns over to a warmongering asshole.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Still if 2 factions, "reds" and "blues", are still supposed to be a thing, they should be made more distinct. Right now the only thing different about Ally and Hordes are the fact that the latters capital is mud hats covered in spikes. Check out the pre-expansion event, after all the Thralls etc were sent to SL - who sends you to Icecrown to deal with stuff? Lor'Themar, Valeera, Calia, all variations of humans.

    Imo making the "reds" just a bit more of assholes than "blues" without writing it down to corrupt leader we need to stand together against would be cool. You know, have Horde be the Cobra Kai to Mr Miyagi Alliance.
    The Elves and the Forsaken never should have joined the Horde. In lore they had absolutely no reason to do so, and have every reason to leave the Horde. Adding pretty humans to a beastmen coalition diluted the Horde as a faction.

  18. #158
    Horde just needs to be written less evil. Maybe it will now. Who knows.

  19. #159
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    14,775
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The problem isn't that "they're the good guys" It'S that they're made out to be the infallible protagonists, IN HORDE'S SIDE OF THE STORY. With the results always being heavily biased with fakeouts, unless it's the prepatch shockvalue twistTM.
    I think you misunderstand the appeal of the Alliance. They don't need inter racial conflict like the Horde. They don't need to be committing warcrimes or atrocities. The appeal of the Alliance is that they're the good guys. They've got their shit together. People play Horde because they want to be a cool evil beastman conqueror who fights everyone. People play Alliance because they want to be a good guy who fights for peace and security. The stability, the beauty, and the actual, legit honor of the Alliance is its core appeal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair the Draenei could've easily warned the orcs and ogres about the looming Legion threat and perhaps made them unite each other against them but no, it's the negligence that caused their own downfall, and yet another planet indirectly destroyed by them
    This is because of retcon shenagains. Originally, the Draenei had no connection to the Eredar. They weren't a super advanced spacefaring race with shield generators and death star cannons and such. They were just small farming villages. But then BC happened and retconned the Eredar into being corrupted Draenei, and retconned the Draenei into being an advanced spacefaring race from another planet, which completely screwed up the lore (how did people with shield generators and robots and death star cannons and spaceships fail to notice that their neighbors were building up for war against them? How did the Draenei lose to savages with sticks?).

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

    Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?
    You realize most of the conflicts started because of the Alliance right? lmao. for example the burning of Teldrassil and all of BFA was because the Alliance was killing noncombatant goblin miners in Silithus with SI:7 Agents.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •