Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Syegfryed]

What is the horde gonna oppose it with? You can use captured troops of non orcish races as the manpower if necessary. Remember, we're leaving the trolls and tauren alone as long as they do not attempt to do anything too dangerous.

with their own manpower? the factions enter an armistice exactly because the alliance could not "subjugate" the horde yet again, they don't have power to impose or demand shit, the horde also freely gave the places they took because they wanted, not because they were forced.

Again, even if there is a delusional scenario, where the alliance can try to take just the orcs, the Orcish troops would never, ever be ok with being "captured" by the alliance, as this will just bring flashbacks of being slaves and the camps, and no, the taurens and trolls will not stand aside while the alliance do as they place they hate the alliance as well.

[Mehrunes]

As I said to @Super Dickmann, that may be so but it merely changes the writing mishap to telling one thing and showing another later on, and it doesn't make the swerve from "the Horde is losing on all fronts" to "the Horde loyalists significantly overpower both the Alliance and the rebels" any betetr writing.

I did read that post, yes. However, my point was that in this case it wasn't just the story "telling" one thing. The camera panned outside when Saurfang gestured towards the Alliance bootlickers and we could see them all in their glory, i.e. it was "showing" it.

On a side note, as @Super Dickmann pointed out already, the swerve from "Alliance's numbers are so depleted that they have to resort to conscripting peasants" to "the Horde is losing on all fronts (to Alliance's deadly peasant army)" came first. So, if anything, the second swerve just corrected things and put them back on track.

[Syegfryed]

I like to think that Baine is just so incompetent and/or was left in the dark, that he though the horde was losing in "all fronts"

[Feanoro]

Ya you trying to use such a thing as a bludgeon to stop people from disagreeing with you is something I'm just gonna add to the reasons why I'm not interested in pretending they weren't wiped out for the Randomness of there birth.

I wish I could say I was shocked at such a tactic.

You can pretend the total eraser of a race in every settlement every where had nothing to do with there nationality if you want but ill pass.

Despite being (supposedly) a lawyer, he keeps trying to argue that because the stated intent wasn't genocide, the action also wasn't. Considering that you cannot prove intent, the law usually focuses on actions. We have the advantage of knowing intent only because this is a fictional setting.

[Mehrunes]

I like to think that Baine is just so incompetent and/or was left in the dark, that he though the horde was losing in "all fronts"

That is always a possibility. Another one is that he wanted to convince other leaders to surrender because he's an Alliance asset.

Ya you trying to use such a thing as a bludgeon to stop people from disagreeing with you is something I'm just gonna add to the reasons why I'm not interested in pretending they weren't wiped out for the Randomness of there birth.

Yes, your willful ignorance (and now also outright Nazi apologism, because you have weird priorities when choosing a hill to die on) on the issue are well-established by this point.

You can pretend the total eraser of a race in every settlement every where had nothing to do with there nationality if you want but ill pass.

By your logic if Sylvanas waged war on dentists and Night Elves happened to be predominantly dentists then they actually they would have been targeted because they were Night Elves and not because they were dentists. To say the least it's not exactly stellar logic.

Also, look at all dem non-Alliance Night Elves like those in Broken Isles that the Horde also attacked. Oh, would you look at that, there's none of them, making your characterization of the topic a lie on top of all of the other flaws with it.

I wish I could say I was shocked at such a tactic.

I didn't know not liking Nazi apologism via making false equivalence between Nazi war crimes and other things is a tactic, but whatever floats your boat.

Despite being (supposedly) a lawyer, he keeps trying to argue that because the stated intent wasn't genocide, the action also wasn't. Considering that you cannot prove intent, the law usually focuses on actions. We have the advantage of knowing intent only because this is a fictional setting.

What you're saying here is that your grasp on criminal law is essentially non-existent. And would you look at that, the creators of the prevalent definition of genocide disagree with you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and now also outright Nazi apologism, because you have weird priorities when choosing a hill to die on

Id say dismissing genocide Deniers is a pretty good hill to die on but you do you.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to pivot away from real-world politics and confine itself to discussing the fictional/fantasy politics of the Warcraft universe.

[Ardenaso]

I remained loyal to Sylvanas AND chose to spare civilians in Astrannar. What is my punishment?

Vulpera, you get Vulpera in the Horde

[Soon-TM]

Vulpera, you get Vulpera in the Horde

Hey, don't touch my furries

[Aresk]

I like to think that Baine is just so incompetent and/or was left in the dark, that he though the horde was losing in "all fronts"

Wasn't that Nathanos that confirmed that victory was within the Alliance's grasp? The guy who was actually organizing all of the Horde PCs and leading infiltration missions on Kul Tiras to reclaim corpses for the Banshee Queen's plots? It seems odd to suggest Baine was wrong when Nathanos corroborates the stance, unless I completely misunderstood you and you're referring to some other time period than following the Battle of Dazar'alor.

[Syegfryed]

Wasn't that Nathanos that confirmed that victory was within the Alliance's grasp? The guy who was actually organizing all of the Horde PCs and leading infiltration missions on Kul Tiras to reclaim corpses for the Banshee Queen's plots? It seems odd to suggest Baine was wrong when Nathanos corroborates the stance, unless I completely misunderstood you and you're referring to some other time period than following the Battle of Dazar'alor.

it ws a joke. because baine is awful.

Besides, alliance was on top before 9,2 then the power balance shifted.

[Aresk]

it ws a joke. because baine is awful.

Besides, alliance was on top before 9,2 then the power balance shifted.

Ah, sorry. Thanks for clarifying!

[aceperson]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

i'd be up (as a horde player) for justice being done when it comes to sylvanas and potentially part of the horde but the current writers don't care for logic. i really hope they get fired soon. they have no clue what they are doing.

[Tharivor]

A pertinent answer would be to point out that there is little left of the Horde to punish.

With regards to the leadership only Baine and Lor'themar were in power at the time of the war. Would their trial and imprisonment make sense as a punishment? Doubtful, since both ended up siding with the Alliance before the war's end. You could go after the allied race leaders I suppose, but they weren't really anywhere near the Horde leadership at the time of the 4th War, so its unclear how imprisoning Mayla or Thalyssra would be a meaningful statement.

Territorially the Horde have effectively lost all the Eastern Kingdoms outside of Quel'Thalas. I suppose there must be some orcs left in Arathi or the Badlands but neither Hammerfall or Kargath are significant population centres.
In Kalimdor the situation is less clear, but we can easily assume that both Darkshore and western and central Ashenvale have been returned to the Night Elves, since these areas were mainly under occupation by Sylvanas' forsaken rather than settled by civilians. It would make sense for the Night Elves to demand Azshara and eastern Ashenvale as compensation and they would be justified in doing so, but they would have to convince Stormwind to provide them with the manpower if the Warsong and Goblins resist. Beyond that however the Alliance has no reason to desire any other territorial concessions; the rest of Horde land in Kalimdor being both too distant from Alliance population centres and too densely populated by Horde races to make it worthwhile to occupy, not to mention that exacting retribution against the Tauren makes little sense considering Baine's ultimate decision to side with the Alliance.
In short the Alliance have already exacted the majority of territorial concessions they might desire, at least from the human strategic perspective which ultimately is what guides the Alliance leadership.

Most importantly however the newly installed Horde leadership is itself very pro-Alliance- Both Baine and Thrall are openly pro-Alliance and close personal friends of Anduin and Jaina; the Forsaken have no leadership of their own and will soon be led by an Alliance priestess; the Trolls and Goblins are too small to have any influence, and the Blood Elves are as isolationist as ever. Of the Allied races only Talanji harbours a grudge against the Alliance and even then its still unclear to what extent allied races are able to participate in the decision making process. Significantly, with the position of Warchief abolished the predominance of pro-Alliance voices on the Council and in the leadership of the largest races (Orcs, Tauren, and Forsaken) mean that this pro-Alliance majority can't simply be overruled by one man.
The Alliance has effectively achieved the aim of any large-scale conflict- to install friendly puppet governments over their opponent's countries, just as Sparta did to Athens after the Peloponnesian War and the Allies to Germany in both World Wars. Short of dismantling the Horde itself, which I agree would be realistic but which obviously for out-of-game reasons is out of the question, what else are people expecting?

[sam86]

Do you know what the word genocide actually means

yes hence why i said only successful one is the one humans did to trolls to built their empire, all other attempts failed since so far the 4 horde races still exist, and btw nelf too still exist so Sylvannas attempt is also failure (which is good, because that story was bullshit, we need more nelf story in wow, ok let's make it story of all of them burning alive yay ....)

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People like to fill their mouths to talk about the "genocide of teldrassil" but they do forget the alliance commit and attempt a couple of genocide themselves

it also failed, also it was almost successful, it still failed and didn't work since nelf still exist and in large, the tree will heal and they will return, unlike trolls who will never return to their pre-genocide era by humans and high elves (which are also ironic alliance race, belf are different race officially since high elf refused them and love to be the best example of fictional stockholm syndrom society and stuck to a faction that wish to kill them and abuse them 24/7)
tldr: Teldrassil was a failed attempted genocide, that as horde fan refuse it in its core, I want to hang Sylvannas head on spear for a lot of reasons that's one of them
A successful genocide is what Draenei did to billions of life forms we don't even know, and humans to trolls

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let's not forget Saurfang also gave the green light to massacre Astranaar and Silverwing Refuge, which was mostly defenseless citizens

he did? i didn't play pre-bfa event because i hated it, any quest or link for that? that's opposite of his personality, at least what blizz tries to make of him

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I like to think that Baine is just so incompetent and/or was left in the dark, that he though the horde was losing in "all fronts"

it would make sense, the official lore (heck we even have a great CGI video about it) alliance were losing badly, they were going to send farmers and children if war didn't end
Baine saying horde is losing make sense since he is stupid and incompetent, because no way Anduin and his daddy wolf would state exact opposite and both of them be wrong, but baine can - and even fit him - easily be ignorant of actual war going and think they are losing

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Murlocs are currently suspected of predating trolls and evolved "naturally" on the titan world (which is rather bizarre to claim since all of this happened because Freya seeded the world with organic life during the ordering of Azeroth and then Azeroth's world soul's energies, in the form of the Well of Eternity, accelerated the cycles she created). Elementals are the only truly natural life on Azeroth to exist with no outside interference. You also have the Aqir for organic life and mogu for titan constructs establishing empires predating the trolls' empire. I'm really not sure where the "trolls are first" mentality comes from given the prevalence of life that precedes them, and even Chronicle only lists trolls as "among the first" of the races that arose from the Well of Eternities' acceleration of Freya's work.

wait what?
trolls are result of titan work?
fuck current lore... didn't azeroth exist peacefully and normally before titan came? i loved Chronicles but the shock of discover that it is from a 'titan' pov made me feel disgust and I despise it

[Syegfryed]

it also failed, also it was almost successful, it still failed and didn't work since nelf still exist and in large, the tree will heal and they will return, unlike trolls who will never return to their pre-genocide era by humans and high elves (which are also ironic alliance race, belf are different race officially since high elf refused them and love to be the best example of fictional stockholm syndrom society and stuck to a faction that wish to kill them and abuse them 24/7)
tldr: Teldrassil was a failed attempted genocide, that as horde fan refuse it in its core, I want to hang Sylvannas head on spear for a lot of reasons that's one of them

blood elf and higha re the same race, they jsut change name, but the ones in alliance are delusional traitor that stand with the faction that screw over their people, ironic.

A successful genocide is what Draenei did to billions of life forms we don't even know, and humans to trolls

Dwarvens genocide of the stonespire tribe, humans genocide gnolls, murlocs and other sentient races, Maiev herself said the night elves exterminated other races as well

he did? i didn't play pre-bfa event because i hated it, any quest or link for that? that's opposite of his personality, at least what blizz tries to make of him

Pretty sure he didn't, i did the pre-expansion quest, he captured the civilians and release then later

[Ardenaso]

Pretty sure he didn't, i did the pre-expansion quest, he captured the civilians and release then later

that's news to me at least the Horde wasn't really deep down until Delaryn triggered Sylvanas

but there's still those shopkeepers from Silverwing whose corpses are still littered

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People like to fill their mouths to talk about the "genocide of teldrassil" but they do forget the alliance commit and attempt a couple of genocide themselves

I'd say it's something like: the Horde may have a way larger body count but at least they get repercussions, and the Alliance are the instigating ones yet never get held accountable

it's like a bullied kid (Horde) who gets pushed by the bully jocks (Alliance) so far to the point where he does a school shooting and he's the one who gets punished but the bullies get off scot-free

[Stormspark]

I would not support any further wars between the Horde and Alliance. It's overdone and stupid at this point. Give us some actual, meaningful peace for once.

And for people saying, "bUt ItS wArCraFT", the war doesn't have to be between the Horde and Alliance. There are, y'know, other groups out there. Lots of 'em, in fact.

I remember most people loved the Legion cinematic where the Horde and the Alliance were united approaching the Broken Shore. I mean, yeah, the battle didn't go so well once we players got there, but still.

[Syegfryed]

that's news to me at least the Horde wasn't really deep down until Delaryn triggered Sylvanas

but there's still those shopkeepers from Silverwing whose corpses are still littered

that is alliance only quest, and way after we had apssed that, the only logical explanation is that after Saurfang and his troops move on the forsaken did on their own

or, like always, blizz putting something to make the quest look way worse, like putting theramore citizens in SoO, despite a year had gone.

I'd say it's something like: the Horde may have a way larger body count but at least they get repercussions, and the Alliance are the instigating ones yet never get held accountable

it's like a bullied kid (Horde) who gets pushed by the bully jocks (Alliance) so far to the point where he does a school shooting and he's the one who gets punished but the bullies get off scot-free

it is a bit of extrme example but yeah, everything the alliance did is swept udner the rug or they try to minize like it was nothing.

Remember when Vol'dun invasion appear in ptr? alliance killing vulperas? they cried ont he forum to change those quests, and they did for then, as horde we can see the dead and burnt vulpera all over the place.

[sam86]

Dwarvens genocide of the stonespire tribe, humans genocide gnolls, murlocs and other sentient races, Maiev herself said the night elves exterminated other races as well

1- that's very specific 'genocide', dwarf didn't wipe out Taurens as race, just 1 tribe, and in that case horde did a lot of 'micro' genocide too
2- being able to speak or act in low intelligent status doesn't make it genocide, murlocs or gnolls are still not really sentient, they can use tools yes, but they are nowhere in civilization as other races on azeroth, and gnolls specially are evil race that deserves what happens to them in first place, if i want to blame humans (of wow), i surely won't hold gnolls on their very long list of crimes

Pretty sure he didn't, i did the pre-expansion quest, he captured the civilians and release then later

yeah that make sense more, he was focus of BFA, doubt they fucked up that part as this guy described

I'd say it's something like: the Horde may have a way larger body count but at least they get repercussions, and the Alliance are the instigating ones yet never get held accountable

we don't even get larger body count, humans alone dwarf entire horde kill count, we still not counting other alliance races like nelfs who killed any opposition as Maeiv stated in that crap of novel (that as far i know still official lore) or draenei who will dwarf all other races combined
Ironically pre-legion u couldn't blame draenei because they were trying to stay alive, but after we learn in legion that that was bullshit reason and even a tinier group of draenei stood against BL since the exodus day, it made the idea of 'running away' selfish and even cruel and evil since u could avoided all that pointless death if u decided to join ur lightforge branch and fight and probably win because the idea of Lightforge draenei made BL a joke who can't beat a handful of draenei HD for thousands of years, imagine if their number was 100 times more (ie: rest of draenei join them), we probably won't even see BL

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that is alliance only quest, and way after we had apssed that, the only logical explanation is that after Saurfang and his troops move on the forsaken did on their own

or, like always, blizz putting something to make the quest look way worse, like putting theramore citizens in SoO, despite a year had gone.

we still don't have a clear idea how burn of teldrassil happened, i remember that factions had quests that contradict each others, and blizz still didn't explain it
like they didn't explain how demons are one and same across all universes in WoD, 10 years passed guys only 1502 left for the promised answer