Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Darth-Piekus]

Let's see.

First they destroyed many cities and harmed both Alliance and Neutral factions.
Secondly they fully supported two crazy Warchiefs and gave them the power to be able to kickstart an Iron Horde Invasion, a Legion Invasion, an Old God Invasion and the Invasion of Death.
Thirdly all of that affected our own universe, the other universe and the Shadowlands with all the irreparable damage that was caused.

However I don't see what they can do to repair all of that or can even have the economy to support that. I don't think they can give anything.

[VladlTutushkin]

Really.. That's not how Varian put it or how Anduin put it when either of them came in declaring their victories over the warmonging bbeg of their respective expansions.

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which only happened cause the more blood thirsty fighters in teh alliance were busy turning Draenor to outland with an all out push to deal with the orcs. Don't worry... they're back in the lore now as jaded millenia old cosmically infused shells of their former selves for the writing team to butcher up.

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edit:

also post war alliance was busy fucking each other over.... not paying their masons which lead to riots and a whole mess of BS that had a king go MIA.... or trying to divy up northern nations because, well, 'reasons'... and then that mess with the cult stirring up shit that got WAY too far out of hand. A bunch of lazy orcs that didn't seem to do anything wasn't worth real attention anymore when they had more pressing issues.

Varian’s words turned out empty. Anduin didnt even said anything besides supporting Horde’s narrative of “it was only Sylvanas”.

[sam86]

Are you comparing an organization to a racial history here? It seems odd to limit Horde to only kills committed during the Horde's founding and include all humanity across history for Alliance

it is easy because unlike horde, alliance still hold their heritage, they don't and didn't even hint to claim that all their past actions are wrong, and most important, they aren't old faction enemy of current playable faction, Chris Metzen himself (u can find it on wowpedia) confirmed that current alliance isn't new one, but continue of alliance that started since before even wow days, while wc2 horde is literally enemy of playable horde faction and is called now old horde or true horde and u can log on ur orc and kill them in Burning Stepps
It is same as why alliance hold high elf crimes and not horde even if most hilf became belfs, because belfs denounce their hilf and changed roots, and the elves who still cling to hilf days are still alliance

if ur father stole a lane by killing its ppl, u denounced his action, said they were wrong, returned this land to whoever left of its ex-citizens, and went to find a new actual empty land for urself, i can't hold u guilty for ur father action
if ur father stole a land, mass slaughtered its ppl, hunted them to extinction, and u are proud of him and still living in that stolen land, and u act u are the symbol of honesty and light, refuse to return that land, and still try to kill anyone weaker than u and try to take their resources, u are perfect alliance candidate (in case u forgot, alliance literally went in WoD to take the new planet resources, they don't even hide that in the garrison founding)

[scubi666stacy]

It's not the horde's leaders who burned teldrassil blighted dark shore and gilenas or any of the other big bad things the horde have done it was the common soldiers. you can't pass the buck to one big name when the common people of the horde are willing and happy to do an endless amount of atrocities.

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They already did all of alliance members there were slain unlike the horde.

It was Blizzard storytelling to blame, not "the Horde". Who do you think is making decisions? Writers.

Even if there are some players who are all into genocide and mass destruction in the game (on both sides, actually), there are plenty of players on both sides, who don't need the faction war bullshit at all, especially if the story is such poorly written as in BfA.

We are already punished by all the crappy storytelling we have to endure through, losing one warchief after another because some morons in the Blizzard headquarter have a boner for faction war.

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Problem is - those people want to enjoy their villainy and be the asshole but when it comes to punishment they rile up and claim that as “good guys” you should just roll over and take it, or bite the pillow, so to say.

If Horde gets to be the villain they also should deal with consequences of it. And “Alliance just too weak and cant fight back for realz” is not an excuse because then we get into “WoW and warfare logic” part which always boils down to rule of cool.

Alliance right now is a hostage of the Horde, being constantly on the ropes and waiting for another mad outburst like a battered wife which waits for her violent drunk of a husband to come home and prays that he was not drinking again this evening.

Only reason they go with “oh they hated the Horde all that time” is because otherwise, with how high the stakes are there will be an actual civil war in the Horde, some parts of it deserting (not whole races mind you, just parts of them) and neutral factions either being wiped out or siding with Alliance because Horde will essentially default to its “Demon Horde settings” which just dosent fly even in illogical world of current WoW.

So they HAVE TO say that it was “all that nasty Warchief” because otherwise even those hacks would not be able to weasel the Horde from either being destroyed or defaulting into a world-ending all out war which again, can only end with either Horde being destroyed or Alliance (and most of the neutral factions) being wiped out.

Not really. Alliance has won both warfronts, and have a much better standing than the Horde, who was decimated by another inner conflict once more.

And I am betting that if Blizzard made a poll with Horde players about "do you want to be evil?" you would get a decline. We did not made the decision. If I could influence the game, there would have been no Garrosh Warchief to begin with. And don't come at me about stop playing or changing factions. If everybody would have done that, there would not have been a WoW anymore. It would have been a mass exodus.

[sam86]

Not really. Alliance has won both warfronts, and have a much better standing than the Horde, who was decimated by another inner conflict once more.

not really
the best explanation of BFA end is that both factions are fucked, alliance is confirmed to be fucked since 8.0, horde lost so it is easy to assume it is in even worse state
alliance may 'stand' better, but they are fucked too
best explanation i got here on forums that alliance offense is destroyed, they can't attack, but horde itself is fucked on full scale, everything, cities, defenses, offenses, everything
hence why while alliance is destroyed and have no army, horde have no civilization itself

[Aresk]

it is easy because unlike horde, alliance still hold their heritage, they don't and didn't even hint to claim that all their past actions are wrong, and most important, they aren't old faction enemy of current playable faction, Chris Metzen himself (u can find it on wowpedia) confirmed that current alliance isn't new one, but continue of alliance that started since before even wow days, while wc2 horde is literally enemy of playable horde faction and is called now old horde or true horde and u can log on ur orc and kill them in Burning Stepps
It is same as why alliance hold high elf crimes and not horde even if most hilf became belfs, because belfs denounce their hilf and changed roots, and the elves who still cling to hilf days are still alliance

if ur father stole a lane by killing its ppl, u denounced his action, said they were wrong, returned this land to whoever left of its ex-citizens, and went to find a new actual empty land for urself, i can't hold u guilty for ur father action
if ur father stole a land, mass slaughtered its ppl, hunted them to extinction, and u are proud of him and still living in that stolen land, and u act u are the symbol of honesty and light, refuse to return that land, and still try to kill anyone weaker than u and try to take their resources, u are perfect alliance candidate (in case u forgot, alliance literally went in WoD to take the new planet resources, they don't even hide that in the garrison founding)

The Horde in WC3 is ruled by the successor to the WC2 warchief, so saying it's not the same Horde is silly; while there was a schism, the Blackrock orcs were then later inducted into the Horde under Garrosh. Furthermore, the Alliance didn't exist before WC2, so claiming that the actions of its constituent races is now its burden would require the same to be applied to the Horde. While there is a bloody history belonging to many of its constituents, that still doesn't fall on the Alliance.

As for WoD, the motivating factor for both factions was the Iron Horde's assault on the Blasted Lands and they formed a joint coalition to combat it. While the Alliance did claim some of the resources of Draenor, to say that was their primary motivation is blatantly false. The Horde also was after various artifacts found in the world, which is what led to the conflicts in Ashran.

As for conflict with former faction members, that's fairly irrelevant and also blatantly false. The Scarlets, the Syndicate, and the Defias are all attackable by the Alliance and made of former Alliance members that broke from it, similar to the Dark Horde to which you were referring.

[Accendor]

not really
the best explanation of BFA end is that both factions are fucked, alliance is confirmed to be fucked since 8.0, horde lost so it is easy to assume it is in even worse state
alliance may 'stand' better, but they are fucked too
best explanation i got here on forums that alliance offense is destroyed, they can't attack, but horde itself is fucked on full scale, everything, cities, defenses, offenses, everything
hence why while alliance is destroyed and have no army, horde have no civilization itself

Just to point this out, horde is not fucked at all. When the alliance scraped together all they could she marched to OG, it was made pretty clear that the horde army is still in full strength. If it was nit for Sylvanas throwing a free win away, this could very well have been the end of the alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

It was Blizzard storytelling to blame, not "the Horde". Who do you think is making decisions? Writers.

Even if there are some players who are all into genocide and mass destruction in the game (on both sides, actually), there are plenty of players on both sides, who don't need the faction war bullshit at all, especially if the story is such poorly written as in BfA.

We are already punished by all the crappy storytelling we have to endure through, losing one warchief after another because some morons in the Blizzard headquarter have a boner for faction war.

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Not really. Alliance has won both warfronts, and have a much better standing than the Horde, who was decimated by another inner conflict once more.

And I am betting that if Blizzard made a poll with Horde players about "do you want to be evil?" you would get a decline. We did not made the decision. If I could influence the game, there would have been no Garrosh Warchief to begin with. And don't come at me about stop playing or changing factions. If everybody would have done that, there would not have been a WoW anymore. It would have been a mass exodus.

Post BfA Horde has far better "standing" then Alliance. By a country mile.

Also yes, quitting and voting with your wallet is perfectly viable, which i did all the way back in 8.1 and havent came back yet.

[Romanthony]

I mean if you look at the real world for comparison. Was every single Nazi Solider punished for the crimes Hitler did?

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean if you look at the real world for comparison. Was every single Nazi Solider punished for the crimes Hitler did?

No, but 1) Allies didnt stopped fighting until Reich was entirely destroyed, instead of just allowing it to "recover" if they changed leadership (again). 2) Even in comparison to WW2 Horde's most "problematic" elements were not punished. Sylvanas and Nathanos (aka Hitler and Himmler) were ousted but the whole structure of officers, ideology and etc under them was not dismantled and rebuilt. Best they did was replace a tyrant with a council... which consists of same people who empowered and supported the tyrant before.

[Super Kami Dende]

all their leaders should have been executed, their Military commanders purged and their faction disbanded.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

it is easy because unlike horde, alliance still hold their heritage, they don't and didn't even hint to claim that all their past actions are wrong, and most important, they aren't old faction enemy of current playable faction, Chris Metzen himself (u can find it on wowpedia) confirmed that current alliance isn't new one, but continue of alliance that started since before even wow days, while wc2 horde is literally enemy of playable horde faction and is called now old horde or true horde and u can log on ur orc and kill them in Burning Stepps
It is same as why alliance hold high elf crimes and not horde even if most hilf became belfs, because belfs denounce their hilf and changed roots, and the elves who still cling to hilf days are still alliance

if ur father stole a lane by killing its ppl, u denounced his action, said they were wrong, returned this land to whoever left of its ex-citizens, and went to find a new actual empty land for urself, i can't hold u guilty for ur father action
if ur father stole a land, mass slaughtered its ppl, hunted them to extinction, and u are proud of him and still living in that stolen land, and u act u are the symbol of honesty and light, refuse to return that land, and still try to kill anyone weaker than u and try to take their resources, u are perfect alliance candidate (in case u forgot, alliance literally went in WoD to take the new planet resources, they don't even hide that in the garrison founding)

You know your contradicting your self on the selfs rights? The blood elfs are the ones who are proud of what they did to the trolls and are still living on the stolen land killing any trolls that rise up to try and make a fuss about it while the high elfs left the land even if they still hate the trolls.

[sam86]

The Horde in WC3 is ruled by the successor to the WC2 warchief, so saying it's not the same Horde is silly; while there was a schism, the Blackrock orcs were then later inducted into the Horde under Garrosh. Furthermore, the Alliance didn't exist before WC2, so claiming that the actions of its constituent races is now its burden would require the same to be applied to the Horde. While there is a bloody history belonging to many of its constituents, that still doesn't fall on the Alliance.

As for WoD, the motivating factor for both factions was the Iron Horde's assault on the Blasted Lands and they formed a joint coalition to combat it. While the Alliance did claim some of the resources of Draenor, to say that was their primary motivation is blatantly false. The Horde also was after various artifacts found in the world, which is what led to the conflicts in Ashran.

As for conflict with former faction members, that's fairly irrelevant and also blatantly false. The Scarlets, the Syndicate, and the Defias are all attackable by the Alliance and made of former Alliance members that broke from it, similar to the Dark Horde to which you were referring.

nice gymnastic mentality, but not true
1- wc3 is ruled by successor of wc2: no, the easiest proof is Thrall is shaman, was there shaman in wc2 horde? didn't elements abandon them? regardless wc2 horde had forest trolls and ogres, both are still part of old horde
2- garrosh inducted them to horde: yes, and in case u missed it playable horde rebelled against that and fought him, in best class-design-wise exp of pandalands
3- alliance didn't exist pre-wc2: i said wow not wc2, however this still doesn't change that humans (and high elf) literally built their empire by doing the only successful genocide in azeroth history so far, killing trolls
4- horde still carry burden: yes, in fact that's why Thrall founded Ogrimmar in a harsh lands, to atone for their mistakes, they didn't mass slaughter genocide races to take their lands as their own, they took empty free lands and established a new civilization, unlike all human capitals (except Kul'Tiras and Gilneas as far i know)
5- where exactly did i claim that Defias is part of alliance? Scarlet on other hand is on very muddy land, they are (lore-wise) invited to alliance cities and have official presentation in Stormwind at least, which still exist even post Cata, being hostile is pure gameplay reason like how Grimtotem (pre-cata) were hostile in game, while lorewise they don't attack horde on sight at least (however Grimtotem became enemy of horde for short time during cata event, right now lorewise they should be back allies with Magatha introduced back to horde

Just to point this out, horde is not fucked at all. When the alliance scraped together all they could she marched to OG, it was made pretty clear that the horde army is still in full strength. If it was nit for Sylvanas throwing a free win away, this could very well have been the end of the alliance.

interesting pov but sadly blizz is refusing to clear that part, what scraps we get from lore is that horde is destroyed
wish blizz just clear that part, whose army is stronger at end of BFA, yeah it is one if not worst exp so far but just fucking clear that part

[Aresk]

nice gymnastic mentality, but not true
1- wc3 is ruled by successor of wc2: no, the easiest proof is Thrall is shaman, was there shaman in wc2 horde? didn't elements abandon them? regardless wc2 horde had forest trolls and ogres, both are still part of old horde
2- garrosh inducted them to horde: yes, and in case u missed it playable horde rebelled against that and fought him, in best class-design-wise exp of pandalands
3- alliance didn't exist pre-wc2: i said wow not wc2, however this still doesn't change that humans (and high elf) literally built their empire by doing the only successful genocide in azeroth history so far, killing trolls
4- horde still carry burden: yes, in fact that's why Thrall founded Ogrimmar in a harsh lands, to atone for their mistakes, they didn't mass slaughter genocide races to take their lands as their own, they took empty free lands and established a new civilization, unlike all human capitals (except Kul'Tiras and Gilneas as far i know)
5- where exactly did i claim that Defias is part of alliance? Scarlet on other hand is on very muddy land, they are (lore-wise) invited to alliance cities and have official presentation in Stormwind at least, which still exist even post Cata, being hostile is pure gameplay reason like how Grimtotem (pre-cata) were hostile in game, while lorewise they don't attack horde on sight at least (however Grimtotem became enemy of horde for short time during cata event, right now lorewise they should be back allies with Magatha introduced back to horde

1 - That's like saying WC3 Alliance had riflemen. Did WC2? No? Then it's a new Alliance. That's not the way the game works. Orgrim appointed Thrall as the next Warchief. The fact that he reintroduced shamanism and led a reformist campaign doesn't make it not the Horde. While he gets props for his reformist perspective, he's still inheriting Doomhammer and thus Blackhand's legacy, hence why he feels they need to atone in the first place. Also, forest trolls are not part of the Horde throughout WoW, and ogres are still members as seen in the Stonemaul.
2 - I must have missed where they rebelled against Blackrock induction. Because no one said squat about inducting the Dragonmaw, and the oppressment of the trolls and the defilement of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms were the major complaints I saw.
3 - The orcs nearly exterminated the draenei and toppled the ogre empire to claim dominion of Draenor (and some of that was actually done under the banner of the Horde, unlike the troll wars). I'm not saying humans and elves are innocent. You are making the claim that their bloody history far outweighs everyone else's, and I'm asking for clarification on where you're getting this information. That has always been the gist of the discussion, and you still haven't shown any information that their history is bloodier than the orcs' or trolls' own.
4 - Kul'tirans killed the Drust, just as an FYI, so they're also guilty of expansionism. As for the Horde, they did kill off numerous centaur and quillboar to claim Durotar, but the game for some reason treats them as lesser races with no moral standing in their extermination.
5 - You claimed that the orcs from the Horde that settled in the Burning Steppes are attackable by Horde players, and thus the Horde of WC2 and WoW are different. Likewise, the Defias in Westfall are from the Alliance are attackable by Alliance players, so by your logic, the Alliance of WC2 and WoW are different. While you didn't claim the Defias as part of the Alliance, they're no different from the Dark Horde in that they're people who don't accept the Alliance's current leadership and have formed their own independent organization opposed to it with hostile interactions. It doesn't remove the validity of the Alliance, just like the Dark Horde's presence doesn't remove the validity of the Horde.

[sam86]

1 - That's like saying WC3 Alliance had riflemen. Did WC2? No? Then it's a new Alliance. That's not the way the game works. Orgrim appointed Thrall as the next Warchief. The fact that he reintroduced shamanism and led a reformist campaign doesn't make it not the Horde. While he gets props for his reformist perspective, he's still inheriting Doomhammer and thus Blackhand's legacy, hence why he feels they need to atone in the first place. Also, forest trolls are not part of the Horde throughout WoW, and ogres are still members as seen in the Stonemaul.
2 - I must have missed where they rebelled against Blackrock induction. Because no one said squat about inducting the Dragonmaw, and the oppressment of the trolls and the defilement of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms were the major complaints I saw.
3 - The orcs nearly exterminated the draenei and toppled the ogre empire to claim dominion of Draenor (and some of that was actually done under the banner of the Horde, unlike the troll wars). I'm not saying humans and elves are innocent. You are making the claim that their bloody history far outweighs everyone else's, and I'm asking for clarification on where you're getting this information. That has always been the gist of the discussion, and you still haven't shown any information that their history is bloodier than the orcs' or trolls' own.
4 - Kul'tirans killed the Drust, just as an FYI, so they're also guilty of expansionism. As for the Horde, they did kill off numerous centaur and quillboar to claim Durotar, but the game for some reason treats them as lesser races with no moral standing in their extermination.
5 - You claimed that the orcs from the Horde that settled in the Burning Steppes are attackable by Horde players, and thus the Horde of WC2 and WoW are different. Likewise, the Defias in Westfall are from the Alliance are attackable by Alliance players, so by your logic, the Alliance of WC2 and WoW are different. While you didn't claim the Defias as part of the Alliance, they're no different from the Dark Horde in that they're people who don't accept the Alliance's current leadership and have formed their own independent organization opposed to it with hostile interactions. It doesn't remove the validity of the Alliance, just like the Dark Horde's presence doesn't remove the validity of the Horde.

1- again no, wc2 alliance is continued in wow, as officially stated by blizzard, yes most of its nations is destroyed (stormgarde, alterac, gilneas), but wow alliance is continue of wc2 alliance, wow horde on other hand is opposing demon-controlled wc2 horde, wow horde is continue of wc3, which in case u missed is also enemy of wc2 horde (also they never went to direct conflict, but u had missions against wc2 horde in wc3)
2- u can find it in entire raid called SoO, where 'horde biased' blizz turned our capital to be defiled weekly and our warchief to loot piniata, they didn't rebel at exact moment but they still rebelled -.-
3- easy: a- draenei extremination is ironically their own fault, imagine if they told orcs from day 1 they are running from BL that destroyed every single planet they settle in, because they refuse to fight them like their far minor sub-faction of lightforge draenei (who literally proved u can fight and survive for 25k years, making BL a joke of threat), what would orcs do? at best draenei ripped what they saw
b- troll empire doesn't exist anymore, and clarification of this info is at least wc3 old days and as far i know never retconned
4- ok so Kul'tirans are bad, still doesn't make horde founding evil, because both quil'boars and centaurs didn't have a civilization to get wiped to begin with, unlike Troll empire that ruled entire azeroth for who knows how long
5- this statement is completely wrong, gameplay isn't lore
again to be clear: Defias are enemy of alliance in both lore and gameplay, old horde are enemy of horde both lore and gameplay, Scarlet are enemy of alliance only in game (true at least classic wow era), lorewise while not friendly Scarlet would never attack alliance races, at least openly, same for Grimtotem (again true during classic era), while hostile in-game against horde, lorewise Grimtotem won't attack non-tauren horde races
Is that clear?
So Old Horde and Defias are enemies in both gameplay and lore, Scarlet Crusade and Grimtotem are enemies only gameplay
Old Horde and Defias never tried to be friendly with either alliance or horde lorewise, Scarlet Crusade never tried to be enemy of alliance (alliance stance on them on other hand isn't clear, and doesn't matter anymore anyway since Scarlet Crusade is over), Grimtotem were at first friendly, then in Cata became hostile to horde (and ironic, befriended alliance), then by Legion time they are back on friendly to horde

[Ardenaso]

-snip-

there's just one thing: the Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn/Crusade, Brotherhood of the Light, and the Kirin Tor are Alliance of Lordaeron factions - but they're not Grand Alliance factions. Well the Wildhammers used to be too until they (re?)pledged officially in Cata. Jaina forced Kirin Tor to the Alliance but Khadgar brought it back to independence (Khadgar is also Alliance of Lordaeron character but he never pledged to the Grand Alliance)

I believe the Alliance had quests to take down Scarlet Crusaders back in Vanilla under the request of the Argent Dawn, they also help Joseph attempt to "retake" back the Scarlet Crusade and then in WotLK they attempt to wipe out the Scarlet Onslaught

[Aresk]

1- again no, wc2 alliance is continued in wow, as officially stated by blizzard, yes most of its nations is destroyed (stormgarde, alterac, gilneas), but wow alliance is continue of wc2 alliance, wow horde on other hand is opposing demon-controlled wc2 horde, wow horde is continue of wc3, which in case u missed is also enemy of wc2 horde (also they never went to direct conflict, but u had missions against wc2 horde in wc3)
2- u can find it in entire raid called SoO, where 'horde biased' blizz turned our capital to be defiled weekly and our warchief to loot piniata, they didn't rebel at exact moment but they still rebelled -.-
3- easy: a- draenei extremination is ironically their own fault, imagine if they told orcs from day 1 they are running from BL that destroyed every single planet they settle in, because they refuse to fight them like their far minor sub-faction of lightforge draenei (who literally proved u can fight and survive for 25k years, making BL a joke of threat), what would orcs do? at best draenei ripped what they saw
b- troll empire doesn't exist anymore, and clarification of this info is at least wc3 old days and as far i know never retconned
4- ok so Kul'tirans are bad, still doesn't make horde founding evil, because both quil'boars and centaurs didn't have a civilization to get wiped to begin with, unlike Troll empire that ruled entire azeroth for who knows how long
5- this statement is completely wrong, gameplay isn't lore
again to be clear: Defias are enemy of alliance in both lore and gameplay, old horde are enemy of horde both lore and gameplay, Scarlet are enemy of alliance only in game (true at least classic wow era), lorewise while not friendly Scarlet would never attack alliance races, at least openly, same for Grimtotem (again true during classic era), while hostile in-game against horde, lorewise Grimtotem won't attack non-tauren horde races
Is that clear?
So Old Horde and Defias are enemies in both gameplay and lore, Scarlet Crusade and Grimtotem are enemies only gameplay
Old Horde and Defias never tried to be friendly with either alliance or horde lorewise, Scarlet Crusade never tried to be enemy of alliance (alliance stance on them on other hand isn't clear, and doesn't matter anymore anyway since Scarlet Crusade is over), Grimtotem were at first friendly, then in Cata became hostile to horde (and ironic, befriended alliance), then by Legion time they are back on friendly to horde

1 - WC2 Horde opposed the Shadow Council and the demons, which is ultimately what caused its defeat; Orgrim diverted troops to deal with Gul'dan, which caused Lordaeron to squash the Horde in the northern EK and the forest trolls to withdraw over their abandonment. It's still the same Horde. Just because the Dark Horde broke off (again, like many Alliance factions broke off after the events of WC2), that doesn't mean it's not the same Horde.
2 - But the Siege wasn't because of the Blackrock Orcs joining. It was because of the treatment of the trolls and the actions occurring in Pandaria. I don't recall a single instance of anyone speaking out against having the Blackrock Orcs join. If such an instance exists, please cite it. Rebelling about A doesn't mean that they disapprove of B. Garrosh wanted the Horde to have more resources; the Horde didn't give back Azshara to the Alliance after Siege. Why? Because it wasn't the part of his leadership that they were opposing.
3 - You're victim blaming here. The Draenei didn't exterminate themselves. The orcs did. While the orcs were manipulated, they were still culpable for their actions. Just like the Horde still bears the blame in the Burning of Teldrassil despite Sylvanas' treachery and the Alliance was culpable for the attempted execution of Blood Elves despite Garithos' racism. If I don't disclose to you that some people think I should be killed, that doesn't give you the freedom to then kill me.
4 - Quillboars and centaur both have civilizations. They have cultures, social hierarchies, and technologies. They can make weapons, form camps, have language. I don't know why you would say they don't have civilizations. As for the Troll Empire, they emerged after the Ordering of Azeroth (that is after the keepers' armies wiped out the Black Empire) and continue to exist today in the form of the Zandalari Empire, which has been roughly sixteen thousand years, though they still shared the land with keeper constructs (vrykul, mogu, tol'vir), old god races (aqir), and other native life (murlocs, pandaren).
5 - What do you mean Grimtotem won't attack Horde races? They literally have an alliance with the Alliance and worked with them to drive the Horde out of Stonetalon. Regardless, all of these examples are only brought up to emphasize that the Dark Horde's existence isn't sufficient to say that the WC2 Horde is a different institution as the WC3 Horde. We have lots of factions that came out of the WC2 Alliance, and as you point out, that Alliance of WC2 is still by-and-large considered the same as the WoW Alliance. Just because offspring of the killed WC1 Warchief want to seize power doesn't make Thrall any less Doomhammer's successor. As such, the Horde can trace an even stronger line of succession than the Alliance, given the Council of Seven Nations is no more, never had a direct descendent, and the mantle of

And all of this is just an attempt to address the false equivalence of comparing one fifteen-thousand year old race to an organization that has existed for around forty-one years. You claim that the humans have the highest kill count (dwarfing the entire Horde); what evidence do you have to support that? You still haven't offered anything, and I don't think you can, because as far as I know, no numbers have been released. Even speaking in the abstract, while we can talk about general events (e.g. troll wars), you haven't provided such a list of conflicts. I can talk about tangents all day with you, but I can't find any evidence that validates your claim, and if you can't provide any, then I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

[sam86]

there's just one thing: the Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn/Crusade, Brotherhood of the Light, and the Kirin Tor are Alliance of Lordaeron factions - but they're not Grand Alliance factions. Well the Wildhammers used to be too until they (re?)pledged officially in Cata. Jaina forced Kirin Tor to the Alliance but Khadgar brought it back to independence (Khadgar is also Alliance of Lordaeron character but he never pledged to the Grand Alliance)

I believe the Alliance had quests to take down Scarlet Crusaders back in Vanilla under the request of the Argent Dawn, they also help Joseph attempt to "retake" back the Scarlet Crusade and then in WotLK they attempt to wipe out the Scarlet Onslaught

Kirin Tor ping pong in and out of alliance every exp, Kirin Tor are one of original alliance who join and leave as they please, they can't be compared to all other factions
Argent Dawn is literally created to not be alliance (humans) favored faction, to allow both factions to join, they are a sub-faction of Scarlet Crusade who left them when they saw how they focus more on purity of just humans instead of actually saving ppl (when Scarlet Crusade started to get corrupted)
wow lore is clear that while Scarlet Crusade had their problems and corrupting starting to surface, they were alliance faction in classic era, they were hostile in game purely for gameplay purpose, and their story is over now which actually is one of good stories of how fanatic and blind zealous leads to your doom and destruction
Wildhammer are alliance, never left it, they just hate other dwarfs, before mighty king chin forced his view over dwarfs in a joke of a political move

-snip-

1- then by that logic Arthas is alliance and scourge is a subfaction of alliance, Arthas was prince/king of Lordearon and most of scourge forces are reanimated citizens of Lordearon and Quel'thalas, and since scourge was ranked at one time the biggest evil and threat of azeroth that makes alliance pure evil, yeah playable alliance is enemy of scourge but hey according to ur logic (making actual enemy of playable horde, still horde!) then actually enemy of alliance is alliance
and if u say that Arthas broke of alliance and started this faction then if u missed it Thrall also broke of old horde (Rend and Maim were still leading blackrock clan during that time) and started his new horde and left the entire continent to new one
2-there is in lore many ppl who complained about Garrosh and got beaten, yeah blizz made a lot of lore outside of game for better or worse, specially about introducing blackrock orcs to Kor'kon ranks
3- That's first time ever i see alliance actually consider them guilty for trying to wipe out blood elves, in case u missed it lorewise alliance don't think they did any mistake here (or in the even literally called Purge of Dalaran) or trying to wipe out all other horde races for no reason (darkspear trolls), so don't compare what horde consider wrong and guilty with alliance actions
Alliance never pledge guilty trying and/or successfully genocide weaker races, in fact they are proud of that (like using name Trollbane), horde on other hand don't celebrate killing Draenei even if literally destruction of their entire planet is Draenei fault
4- Not according to blizzard, they aren't a major faction, no one alliance or horde consider it wrong to kill them, if u want to use something at least use something in-game someone even consider it, beside Quil'boars and Centaurs no one see killing them wrong at any faction!
They have primitive civilization like Murlocs and Gnolls, no one consider Stormwind great war against Gnolls wrong or evil, if anything it is viewed more as a joke how they underestimated Gnolls so much until Gnolls became actual threat
No one in alliance or horde consider killing murloc hub evil or act of genocide, heck no horde blame alliance for their active 'genocide' against kobolds
5- in case u missed i was talking lore, and i was really clear, Grimtotem started wow as horde, at cata joined alliance, now back to horde, pre-cata lorewise they won't attack horde, and their inn attack in Theramore is considered a horde wrong
Doomhammer abandoned old horde, if u saying Thrall is Doomhammer successor, successor of what? old horde? Doomhammer himself abandoned it and started a new actual clean anti-demon one, so horde trace back to someone who on purpose abandoned old rank is even bigger proof that they cut their ties with old one


And lastly seriously just read wowpedia and check Troll civilization, or founding of human nations for that matter, we have no numbers, but we do have (a lot in fact) stories about how they literally founded themselves by taking troll lands and expanding on them, and the more human grew, the more trolls they killed until they destroyed and shattered troll empire forever

[confety]

Nobody has the power to make the horde pay for anything? Anduin was about to conscript damned farmers because soldiers were running out, and the alliance AND probably more than half of the horde werent sure if they could have success assaulting orgrimmar in BFA.

Factions are fucked really hard right now after Legion and BFA, they dont have the power (or the intention) to even try to attack the other faction. Its something that would get nowhere, only more dead people. WoWs faction capitals are way more fortified than the attack power of the other faction.

"BuT The AllIaNCe/HorDe CouLD Do ThIs".

No.

Faction wars are over, story is moving forward

[username993720]

Varian's words: "If your Horde fails to uphold honor, as Garrosh did, we will end you" - never came to fruition.