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  1. #21
    Anyway there is just no reason or excuse for the Draenei's (normal, broken and lightforged) complete absence when their closest allies needed their help.

    In a better scenario the Draenei would have at least sent some of their vindicators, mages, priests, shamans and tech to support the Night Elves especially to help the Kaldorei chase the Horde from their lands.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Said catapults shouldn't have even been capable of representing even a very small threat to Teldrassil but well with the current writing team a single troll with a simple torch was able of setting a city on fire without one of the greatest mages of Azeroth being able of lighting the fire out and Sylvanas' forces were capable of getting a corpse from the bottom of the ocean even if this corpse was incenerated and utterly decayed decades ago, so....
    not just a CITY... a whole FUCKING NATION. Teldrassil was like 3 cities and the scattered land (err.. tee-land....) between them

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    I'm not even sure how the hell those catapults REACHED the tree. Like, were they some kinda insane suped-up Goblin-made Azerite-enhanced demolishers? Because the tree is supposed to be like, miles away from shore, let alone why the tree went up like it was made of dry kindling.
    That's the thing... the Demo's weren't enhanced as far as the story was concerned. They had to have the blessing of... oh wait. That might actually be what happened now.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    I'm not even sure how the hell those catapults REACHED the tree. Like, were they some kinda insane suped-up Goblin-made Azerite-enhanced demolishers? Because the tree is supposed to be like, miles away from shore, let alone why the tree went up like it was made of dry kindling.
    Not counting how hard it is to set a real giant tree on fire, some can even resist giant fires so a titanic world tree with lakes and rivers and has druids, Elune priestesses and mages on it....

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Anyway there is just no reason or excuse for the Draenei's (normal, broken and lightforged) complete absence when their closest allies needed their help.

    In a better scenario the Draenei would have at least sent some of their vindicators, mages, priests, shamans and tech to support the Night Elves especially to help the Kaldorei chase the Horde from their lands.
    The only excuses for lack of draenei pressence at this point is lack of support for their magitech but logistics is already damned so ignore that limit. Like I could understand they need way too much time to fabricate their equipment and materials and then it might break down through use... but it's ridiculous what all was pushed out for war productions anyways.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Use spaceship and lightforged battlesuits capable of destroying spaceships.
    Yeah, after Legion I've always wondered "Why aren't we leveraging this?" as Alliance. BfA should not have went down as it did exactly because of what the Alliance had access to via interstellar tech (BfA even ended up about being old god corruption, I don't think the Light would might waging that war). Maybe after Shadowlands we'll be pleasantly surprised that Turalyon and his connection with the Lightforged is leveraged to cleanse the Horde and probably some aspects of the Alliance... or it'll be forgotten/ignored still. Despite the good parts of Legion, there was plenty wrong with it, and the existence of all these spaceships (one of which is confirmed to be floating around Azeroth right now) completely changes everything in terms of warfare. However, like every solution or issue that would alter how their narrative plays out in major ways, such game-changers are conveniently forgotten.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2021-09-16 at 03:05 PM.
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    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  6. #26
    Also the Night Elves should be masters in guerilla with their speed, agility, stealth, knowledge of their lands and bond with local wildlife even more with that many druids and such powerful and experienced ones on their side.

    Yet this is rarely if ever exploited in the story. The only times where guerilla were really shown and used realistically were during the Aqir-Troll wars with trolls using it to gain the advantage on the far more numerous Aqir, and during the conflict between the Old Horde and the Gurubashi trolls during the First War which led to Blackhand ordering Killrog Deadeye to retreat of Stranglehorn Vale since he was sacrifying many orcs for no real gain, both conflicts being depicted in Chronicles.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Also the Night Elves should be masters in guerilla with their speed, agility, stealth, knowledge of their lands and bond with local wildlife even more with that many druids and such powerful and experienced ones on their side.
    I don't think we really got much of any stories about the night elves fighting in their lands properly. Rather we have a lot of posturing about what should be their land and then war events unfolding. Like Ashenvale's story in BFA was a huge force just steam rolling through that was beyond anything the scattered defenders were prepared for (cause for some reason all their forces were sent south to Silithus) and this was basically the same excuse used for most of darkshore till they got flanked from felwood because that made sense

    I do admit that this was one of the reasons some people's headcanon about teldrassil burning making sense as a better option than invasion though.

    But once you get beyond kalidor's forests and some sections of Feralas... that edge drops off. They aren't gonna have it in the barrens or down in the deserts or on the shores of the islands we wound up exploring (some magically inclined examples might maybe)

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I don't think we really got much of any stories about the night elves fighting in their lands properly. Rather we have a lot of posturing about what should be their land and then war events unfolding. Like Ashenvale's story in BFA was a huge force just steam rolling through that was beyond anything the scattered defenders were prepared for (cause for some reason all their forces were sent south to Silithus) and this was basically the same excuse used for most of darkshore till they got flanked from felwood because that made sense

    I do admit that this was one of the reasons some people's headcanon about teldrassil burning making sense as a better option than invasion though.

    But once you get beyond kalidor's forests and some sections of Feralas... that edge drops off. They aren't gonna have it in the barrens or down in the deserts or on the shores of the islands we wound up exploring (some magically inclined examples might maybe)
    Well that's the meaning of guerilla, to outsmart, outmaneuver and wear down foes who are either superior in numbers or firepower or both, using your cunning and knowledge of your homeland.

    So this doesn't include the Barrens or Tanaris or Silithus.

    The fact that Kaldorei aren't allowed to use that kind of warfare at which they should excel, is another obvious case of them being used as punching balls by the writers since Vanilla.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Other than the Night Elves using guerilla and having the support of their traditionnal allies, and Draenei actually doing something to help their Kaldorei allies, the dwarves and gnomes should have had a much more active and important role in the Alliance's strategy and war machine.

    Dwarves have been underused for so long despite the dwarves' industrial and technological might, the addition of the Wildhammer with their griphon riders and shamans and/or druids, and the Dark Irons' own tech, expertise in magic and their golems and dirty tactics.
    Instead of being a major player of the Alliance as they were during Vanilla they have been mostly confined to Dun Morogh and didn't take part in the conflicts in Lordaeron until BFA.

    And that's not saying about the gnomes whose intelligence and technological, magical and alchemical prowess have been severaly underused too, with them haven't retaken their home or had a real importance in the Alliance's war machine and major plans aside from Mechagon and Dal'zador.

    Both could have had a big role in the northern warfronts with a logistical and technological support, the dwarves sending an important army to help retake and defend Stromgarde and secure the Hinterlands already long before BFA and the gnomes sending aerial and special units with machines and potions to counter the Forsaken's Blight ànd other chemical/biological weapons.

  9. #29
    When it comes to the war against Garrosh, not making a guy that was fighting the first war of his life their supreme commander would have been a start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Alliance has aerial superiority. If the faction war was actually allowed to play out no holds barred then every Horde "city" gets firebombed and the war ends overnight.

    The Horde and the Alliance are in no way comparable. Up until the addition of Zandalar and Suramar, the Horde was made up of small refugee populations of hunter-gatherers. Every single Horde race was merely a small fraction of a former nation. Most Alliance nations have not been decimated. Ruined during the First and Second Wars, but not decimated (otherwise the internment of the Orcs would have been impossible). The Alliance also has several nations that were never ruined in the first place (the Dwarf Kingdoms, etc). Furthermore, all Alliance races are agricultural. The Alliance also has logistics capabilities that the Horde simply does not have, with advanced networks of roads and trams and mercantile fleets and airships. The end result means that the Alliance has straight up several times the population of the Horde, and can actually support extensive campaigns and huge armies in a way that nomadic hunter gatherers cannot.

    The Alliance also has a tremendous technological advantage over the Alliance. The Alliance has sniper rifles, rayguns, machineguns, gas, nuclear weapons (remember Gnomergan was rendered uninhabitable by a dirty bomb), airships, shield generators, spaceships, and death star cannons (remember the Vindicaar drilling into Antorus?). The Alliance has literally no reason to try to stupidly fight Orcs in melee combat when they can just wipe them out in relative safety from afar.

    If the war was realistic, then there wouldn't be a war. Suramar and Zandalar would renounce their loyalty to the Horde, unwilling to be ruined in a fruitless struggle for some lowly beastmen they never should have joined in the first place and who never helped them. Silvermoon as well, since they literally never got anything out of being Horde. All three are physically cut off from the rest of their allies by an ocean and have no hope of aiding each other as the Alliance would sink any of their ships. The rest of the rabble would get their cities torched and their survivors sent scurrying around their continents barely able to feed themselves and fighting among themselves while the Alliance goes home.
    And just more typical Val falsehoods. Most Alliance nations have not been decimated? Stormwind was turned to rubble in the First War (and that was after it was nearly obliterated two more times within the same century, by foes as pathetic as Gnolls and the lumbering corpse of the Gurrubashi Empire). Lordaeron was almost entirely Scourged. Alterac was dismantled by Alliance itself. Stromgarde fell to a bunch of nobodies after Galen killed his father. Dalaran was turned to rubble as well. Gnomereggan was nuked by Mekkatorque himself, which led to 80% of his race dying. Night Elves never recovered from Malfurion imploding their own empire and then had the Legion waltz through their lands once again just four years prior to WoW (which ended with Hyjal getting torched and Night Elves losing their blessings from the Aspects). The only Alliance race that didn't have its ass handed to them recently at the start of WoW were the Dwarves.

    Your population numbers are as always something you made up. Meanwhile in the actual lore the internment camps' Orcs alone were numerous enough that they still could have posed a risk to the entirety of Alliance (while it still had Lordaeron carrying the rest). And not all Orcs were even in internment as entire clans evaded capture. And only half of the Horde even set foot on Azeroth during the Second War. Meanwhile the Forsaken are a half of Scourge forces in Lordaeron, which was by far the largest human nation.

    Aside from Vindicar, whose biggest accomplishment is opening a small hole in a wall (all the while Xenedar got shot down from the sky by one demon, while Exodar crash landed after a tiny force of Blood Elves easily boarded it), Alliance's aerial superiority is non-existent, because most of the gunships that had been destroyed so far had been the Alliance ones. All the while the Horde routinely has the naval supremacy, to the point that between Cata and MoP they blockaded the entirety of Kalimdor. And aside from the spaceship of questionable worth, the Horde has all the things you somehow listed as "Alliance's technological supremacy" (and then some, because they have also things that the Alliance does not, like the Sunwell, which judging by Azshara's use of the Well of Eternity could be weaponized).

    The logistics capabilities of the Alliance are also rather questionable, as they repeatedly have storylines about their infrastructure being in disrepair or their supply bases being thrown into chaos. All the while the Forsaken build new infrastructure like crazy. It's almost as if a race that doesn't need to eat or sleep would fare better in that regard.

    Also, the entire reason why the Blood Elves still control Ghostlands (so half their kingdom) is because of Forsaken support. "Never got anything out of being Horde" indeed.
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  10. #30
    Made more Sylvani (plural of Sylvanas). She woulda wiped them all out by herself.

  11. #31
    Stood in the Fire Derpules's Avatar
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    Mana-bomb & Theramore. I'm hazy on the details by this point, but was there any indication that Garrosh had the means to create/use such a weapon? If there were, the Alliance could have saved lives and possibly baited Garrosh by letting his plan seemingly unfold. SI:7, WHERE WERE YOU?
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  12. #32
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    Bfa was just horrible military strategy wise, the whole not pushing the advantage when they had the horde on the ropes just cause it would be mean. It’s like what if after D day the American s decided to walk back home instead of continuing the fight.
    The siege of zulda, just blow up the ships when they planted the bombs, have disguised agents/malcontents put the blame on the king/horde. No need to sacrifice an army to lure some scrubs away so you can invade and ask someone to surrender nicely.

    Also keep track of god tier items, like how the fuck did they just randomly allow some naga to walk the tide stone out of that stupid raid without raising any alarms.
    For Garrosh, alliance /pandas shoulda been keeping an eye on the valley, how the horde can somehow dig up half the valley without raising any alarms, is just more of blizzard horrible writing

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpules View Post
    Mana-bomb & Theramore. I'm hazy on the details by this point, but was there any indication that Garrosh had the means to create/use such a weapon? If there were, the Alliance could have saved lives and possibly baited Garrosh by letting his plan seemingly unfold. SI:7, WHERE WERE YOU?
    The Alliance had no clue. That's precisely why they prepared for a conventional siege.
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  14. #34
    During or after Cataclysm or at least after the end of MoP the Alliance could have at least focused on retaking Gilneas, Gnomeregan and Stromgarde as well as fully reintegrating Westfall and Duskwood into the kingdom, in Stormwind's case to better the kingdom's security and economy with Westfall's healed cereals and fruits/vegetable fields and farms providing more food to Stormwind and the Alliance as well as the deadmines becoming a constant source of gold again. One or two new NE ports closer to the EK wouldn't have been bad either.

    And in the same vein the Alliance shouldn't have waited until BFA to recruit Kul Tiras back again, MoP was a formidable occasion for KT to be sought to rejoin after Theramore's destruction.

  15. #35
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    (and then some, because they have also things that the Alliance does not, like the Sunwell, which judging by Azshara's use of the Well of Eternity could be weaponized).
    They kind of did in Isle of Thunder with that mini-Sunwell, though I don't remember if they actually used it for anything.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  16. #36
    Realize theramores strategic importance on kalimdor should orgrimmar ever go completely hostile. Dustwallow marsh should've been controlled by the alliance the moment Onyxia was slain. Instead the horde controlled the marshes by befriending nearby ogres and the alliances ill desire to expand caused them to not be able to create a proper front on the continent to protect their base properly from aircraft.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    They kind of did in Isle of Thunder with that mini-Sunwell, though I don't remember if they actually used it for anything.
    Neither I, same for the Thunder King's powers that were absorbed by Jaina's staff, we have never seen Jaina use that incredibly destructive power in battle even though she had perfect opportunities to do so during Siege of Orgrimmar or BFA against the Horde, or against queen Azshara during Tides of Vengeance or even against the Burning Legion in Legion (where she was unceremoniously put into a bus until BFA).
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-09-17 at 04:11 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    They kind of did in Isle of Thunder with that mini-Sunwell, though I don't remember if they actually used it for anything.
    I think there was a quest about it getting activated (though I can't seem to find it right now) but I can't remember anything about it being used either. Still, a nice catch anyway. I kind of forgot about that well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Neither I, same for the Thunder King's powers that were absorbed by Jaina's staff, we have never seen Jaina use that incredibly destructive power in battle even though she had perfect opportunities to do so during Siege of Orgrimmar or BFA against the Horde, or against queen Azshara during Tides of Vengeance or even against the Burning Legion in Legion (where she was unceremoniously put into a bus until BFA).
    Because Jaina absorbed the power of wishful thinking and dreams into her staff, not the Thunder King. She was acting under wrong assumptions about the source of Thunder King's power and she outright admitted that her intel is just rumors. Wrathion got the actual power of the Thunder King.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    When it comes to the war against Garrosh, not making a guy that was fighting the first war of his life their supreme commander would have been a start.
    Alliance in the cataclysm war was one of the examples of how a bad leader can just fuck up everything, Varian spread his forces so thin with the tentative to decimate the orcs that he got easily screwed by Garrosh superior tactics, (even when he had less manpower without the full support of the other horde leaders) and he let the superior part of Easter kingdoms easily be conquered by Sylvanas march

    They only won with plot armor and bs scenarios like Ashenvale, that to this was a complete meme, no wonder why they had to make Garrosh a villain in MOP, alone they would be defeated

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What real strategy or strategies should the Alliance have devised and put in action against the Horde during the Alliance-Horde War, and during the Fourth (in truth Fith) War ?

    By real strategy I mean a real plan with a medium or long-term objective, and with realistic means and stages in the plan to fight and win the war, rather than what we saw or didn't see during Cataclysm and MoP and all the nonsense shown in BFA and its novelizations.

    It means devicing a plan, having clear objectives, use well the ressources at the Alliance's disposal, insure the supply and logistical means, and do actions while not overreaching.
    1. study enemy weapons and create defensive stuff
    gas masks. land mines. so on
    2. teleport to orgrimmar. or lure Garosh at any pig farm. polymorph him into one.win.win
    make BBQ for peace summit some sha infused ribs
    orcs gonna love it
    3. create some sort of magic bombs. from holy light. and shoot at forsaken. insta win

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