You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[Kithelle]

maybe i missunderstood you. i dont fully get what you wanna say with this post.

but if your suggestion really was „4th spec as a new xpacs feature, but just for some specific classes“ its completely dellusional imo. they will never ever do this. regardless how old your playerbase is. even thinking about such a „feature“ is imo absurdly far from being realistic in any form.

why the hell they ever will do this??? they will never add 4th specs at all (reasons see my and others posts above). but IF they would do this, they for 100000% sure will never never ever do it, just for „some“ specs/classes. thats absurd.

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class skins is at least the most realistic one. since they did something similar (with similar effort) in BfA (allied races).

4th specs for every class is completely unrealistic (heck they have zero ideas already) and imo completely off the table. new class is, as always, possible. but since they had not much ideas and investment left for DH, i assume they try to ignore this. but since xpacs with new classes always were succesful and Blizz is a rather conservative company, sticking to their formula, i can totally imagine a new 2specs class (1 range dps 1 heal spec or so).

but imo class skins would have the most benefit as a feature, could be coupled/linked with their „systems“ and grind stuff and seems to be the most mid cost effective for Blizz. its maybe the highest gain (marketing wise, feature-list wise and investment wise) for a mid class investment. could work as effective feature for next xpac. around the same deal, allied races was.

I mean at least the "ideas" for 4th specs are easy...I came up with ideas for almost every if not every class myself...problem is because of the balancing issues they have multiple 4th specs would be left in the dust (kinda like how Survival just can't be good or Hunters would complain they're forced to play melee)

[Cosmic Janitor]

maybe i missunderstood you. i dont fully get what you wanna say with this post.

but if your suggestion really was „4th spec as a new xpacs feature, but just for some specific classes“ its completely dellusional imo. they will never ever do this. regardless how old your playerbase is. even thinking about such a „feature“ is imo absurdly far from being realistic in any form.

why the hell they ever will do this??? they will never add 4th specs at all (reasons see my and others posts above). but IF they would do this, they for 100000% sure will never never ever do it, just for „some“ specs/classes. thats absurd.

Again why would that be absurd? Just because? A new class doesn't mean everyone gets something new either, only those that reroll will ever get something of substance out of it, for everyone else it's just another abandoned alt. By giving a few classes new spec options you already reach way more people in your audience.

They also don't remake classes every expansion, usually only 1 or 2 get that honor, usually just single specs (like shadow in SL), while most are stuck with slight balancing changes. So I didn't get anything out of that either unless I play that one class. Just adding a spec for the sake of adding a spec is certainly not something that would lead to decent specs, as it just becomes a struggle to fill a quota and a class like druid already has 4 specs and fills practically all niches.

Not everything needs to be equally distributed and it never has been in the past 17 years. A certain asymmetry in design leads to more exciting outcomes, not to mention that they could keep adding specs further down the line if they have some decent fits. Much like allied races there is no need to blow your load right away.

[Usernameforforums]

Class skins is just a low effort idea.

4 spec is too much for a single expac or patch. Also a balancing nightmare.

New class is always a reasonable choice.

Nothing is the best choice.

The new combo choice is basically the nothing choice cuz they aint just gonna do nothing. Theyll rework classes and such when they can.

[Niwes]

Again why would that be absurd? Just because? A new class doesn't mean everyone gets something new either, only those that reroll will ever get something of substance out of it, for everyone else it's just another abandoned alt. By giving a few classes new spec options you already reach way more people in your audience.

They also don't remake classes every expansion, usually only 1 or 2 get that honor, usually just single specs (like shadow in SL), while most are stuck with slight balancing changes. So I didn't get anything out of that either unless I play that one class. Just adding a spec for the sake of adding a spec is certainly not something that would lead to decent specs, as it just becomes a struggle to fill a quota and a class like druid already has 4 specs and fills practically all niches.

Not everything needs to be equally distributed and it never has been in the past 17 years. A certain asymmetry in design leads to more exciting outcomes, not to mention that they could keep adding specs further down the line if they have some decent fits. Much like allied races there is no need to blow your load right away.

in that text is nothing i would disagree with. baseline i 100% agree. but specific to that exact thematic (4th spec) they simply will not do this. they just can loose. i do this sw development job since 20 years in that business and i can gurantee you, this will not happen.

if the next xpac brings 4th spec i pay you 10 million ingame gold.
if the next xpac brings 4th spec, for SOME classes, i pay you 100 million ingame gold.

you can quote this and blame me, when next xpac is released.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

A new class IF that class is necromancer w/ diablo-style abilities.

Otherwise: class skins.

Other-Otherwise: let every race be every class. It'll be fine. Seeing a very occasional NELF warlock or Undead Druid won't break the game. It's a bit silly, but players can do lots of silly things.

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in that text is nothing i would disagree with. baseline i 100% agree. but specific to that exact thematic (4th spec) they simply will not do this. they just can loose. i do this sw development job since 20 years in that business and i can gurantee you, this will not happen.

if the next xpac brings 4th spec i pay you 10 million ingame gold.
if the next xpac brings 4th spec, for SOME classes, i pay you 100 million ingame gold.

you can quote this and blame me, when next xpac is released.

Really? I'd say the reverse. A 4th spec for every class is very unlikely - it'd be the balancing equivalent of adding like 3 classes at once.

But I could totally see them announcing an expansion with "New Specs!" as a feature - and adding like 3-5 specs spread across different classes.

Yeah, a minority would whine about their class getting shortchanged - but people would get over it. And blizzard knows people would get over it. We already have 4-spec druids and 2-spec DH. The number of people who would quit over it would be totally negligible.

[Lochton]

For me, either a new class or a 4th spec for mostly all the ones without (a 3rd for DH, and a remake of UH for DK).

If new class: Tinker - or maybe Necromancer.

If a 4th spec, or altered specs:
Warrior = Gladiator (Sword & Shield DPS/off-tank)
Paladin = Templar (Sword & Shield DPS) OR Cleric (Ranged DPS/off-heal)
Death Knight = Unholy => Necromancer (Ranged Caster DPS/Minions/Shields/Absorbs)

Shaman = Earthwarder (Tanking)
Hunter = (?)

Rogue = Dark Ranger (Ranged DPS)
Demon Hunter = (?) (Ranged DPS/Shields/Absorbs)
Druid = N/A
Monk = (?) (Ranged Caster DPS)

Priest = Zealot (Melee Spell DPS)
Mage = Illusionist (Ranged Tanking (Illusions hold the aggro) OR Chronomancer (Healer (Restore))
Warlock = (?) (Demon Infused Tanking)

[username993720]

Also in customization options, emotes and voices. Plenty more than just recolor.

Okay, it doesn't offer new gameplay. That's what i'm saying.

I mean honestly speaking, it depends on how you choose to see a class.

I don't even think Priests do Priests justice half of the playable races would never use Void magic in lore, and a bunch of other options like Goblins and Gnomes don't even have formal religious orders to really call themselves Priests. Or look at how we're told each race uses the Light differently, but there's no difference between a Forsaken or a Troll or a Dark Iron channeling their spells.

True.

That's why Priest was the only class to get racial abilities.
I think Priestess of the Moon, Shadow Hunter and Alchemist would solve this issue.

What we regard as a class as is nothing more than a collection of gameplay mechanics grouped under a similar system. Does it matter that a Sunwalker doesn't actually cast Sun magic? No, it doesn't. But the Paladin gameplay still does it justice, by adapting all of their lore into tangible gameplay mechanics. And if that's what classes effectively are in WoW, then a class skin, or Echo classes, can do it justice by that same standard. And any incongruencies would exist alongside the ones that already exist in WoW classes.

Well, it does matter to me. Alongside the fact that there are no suitable transmogs for these guys. Sunwalkers should definitely be a class skin for Paladins.

Right now we have absolutely no way to play a Death-oriented spellcaster that summons undead. A class skin could absolutely do that justice.

Agreed. As long as it's not a standalone class that comes at the expense of other, more deserving, classes.

Why would it be a new class? And if would be a new class, why did it become just a tiny cosmetic option for night elves only?

Because Blizzard was developing the concept with Tyrande.

It didn't become anything. It's just the eyes. You don't get to do everything the Night Warrior does with this eye option.

And yet you said this:

Which implies we know the reasons behind it. What is it, then? Do we know, or do we not know, the reasons behind making certain concepts into separate races/classes and others into mere cosmetic options?

I said it to show you that there's probably a reason behind what gets to be a new race and what doesn't.
At this point, it's speculative. I'd say they represent different cultures, but some would say otherwise.

Which is not part of the leveling experience. Right now you can level through Legion, wielding an heirloom weapon, without ever setting foot in your class hall. Get to Legion, mount up, fly to Azsuna/Val'Sharah/Highmountain/Stormheim and start leveling.

That still cuts a lot of the content. It's like telling you to level through WoD without using the Garrison system. It's like leveling through BfA without doing the war campaigns. Or, not aligning yourselves with the Covenants in Shadowlands.

Inquisitor for an Alliance shaman skin, and Seer for a Horde Paladin skin.

Sorry to tell you, but Shamans aren't Inquisitors and Paladins aren't Seers. Both are Priests.

A new class IF that class is necromancer w/ diablo-style abilities.

Which, are unholy/blood?

Otherwise: class skins.

Other-Otherwise: let every race be every class. It'll be fine. Seeing a very occasional NELF warlock or Undead Druid won't break the game. It's a bit silly, but players can do lots of silly things.

Forsaken have no connection to druidism.

[Triceron]

Okay, it doesn't offer new gameplay. That's what i'm saying.

Allied Races add new gameplay, what the fuck you talking about?

You even said 'Racials, yes.' Racials are gameplay.

That's why Priest was the only class to get racial abilities.
I think Priestess of the Moon, Shadow Hunter and Alchemist would solve this issue.

Sure, it would.

So would not painting themselves against a wall when designing specs as individual classes and having to balance it all, but we can't change that either. Not quite sure where you stand with your expectations, but the solution is likely never going to manifest as individual new classes.

It's got less of a chance happening than Priests getting their racials back, and we already know that's slim to none. And hell, I want my Priest racials back since it was the whole reason I rolled a Troll Priest in the first place.

[Ielenia]

Because Blizzard was developing the concept with Tyrande.

That's irrelevant. The death knight's concept was developed with Arthas/Lich King.

It didn't become anything. It's just the eyes. You don't get to do everything the Night Warrior does with this eye option.

Exactly. My question then was: if it was supposed to be a class, why was it not made into a class?

I said it to show you that there's probably a reason behind what gets to be a new race and what doesn't.

You said that what I said demonstrated why certain concepts become classes/races and other just cosmetics. If something is "demonstrated", it means it was shown, it was revealed.

At this point, it's speculative. I'd say they represent different cultures, but some would say otherwise.

Wildhammers are different cultures from Ironforge dwarves. Sandfury trolls, Amani trolls, jungle trolls, etc, have different cultures to the Darkspear trolls. Blackrock, Laughing Skull, Frostwolves all have different cultures from each other, yet they're all 'one race'.

That still cuts a lot of the content.

It's not, though. The amount of experience you get through the quests in your order hall while leveling is honestly negligible. I'm guessing at most it was one or two levels worth of experience.

It's like telling you to level through WoD without using the Garrison system. It's like leveling through BfA without doing the war campaigns.

... Your comparison is quite apt, but not in the way you imagine it is. Garrison has little content in terms of quest other than "go to this zone", just like Legion's order halls. Same thing with BfA's war campaigns.

So yes, Garrisons and War campaign could be completely cut off from the leveling experience and nothing of value would be lost in terms of leveling.

Or, not aligning yourselves with the Covenants in Shadowlands.

... You know you can technically already do that, right? Threads of fate give you basically that, as throughout the entire leveling experience with Threads of Fate, you don't play the covenant campaigns at all, right?

Also, this is a comment from WoWhead:

"I have an alt that chose Threads of Fate, but did not complete the "Choosing Your Purpose" quest to choose a covenant. I saw that the flight paths were open in the realms and decided to level her crafting, starting with fishing and cooking. I flew to Bastion, and the quest to aid Bastion popped up when I entered the Zone. I can see all of the world quests and Sojourner quests for the areas, without choosing a covenant."

[terminaltrip421]

class, combos (void elf and nightborne DHs) or races.

[Amnaught]

Sorry to tell you, but Shamans aren't Inquisitors and Paladins aren't Seers. Both are Priests.




Forsaken have no connection to druidism.

- Nobody said Inquisitors were Shamans. Inquisitor could be a shaman skin, i.e. a Holy spellcaster with a healing, ranged, and dual-wielding melee spec, wearing mail armor (or plate, plus access to paladin-specific items), dropping "relics" instead of totems, summoning lightspawn instead of elementals, casting exorcism instead of lightning bolt, etc. The'd probably be able to wield swords and not daggers. No relation to Shamans, aside from the gameplay.

Farseer could be a tank/healing/two-handed class skin using all of the Paladin's mechanics and balance, but casting elemental spells instead of holy. Their healing spec would use water like the shaman, replace consecration with a rain+lightning thunderstorm visual. Divine steed? You mean a charging spirit kodo form?

As for undead with a connection to druidism... They raised a ton of Gilneans as Forsaken, and Gilneas definitely had druids. They could also be death druids like the Kul Tirans, or literally undead Kul Tirans given the presumption that the Forsaken are still recruiting via necromancy and they definitely killed a lot of those guys. They also have no connection to the Light, but now look at Calia. Playable races shouldn't be based on what is common, but what is possible. ....All of that said though, I really hope they'd put it behind an unlock questline like the Allied Races. I dont want to see *everyone* roll an undead druid, but the fact that they *could* be druids means we should be able to be them. Doesnt need a sunwalker-styled subfaction.

[IAMANIKOLAS]

Voted New Class, Combos and 4th spec.

Despite the popularity, I am very much against class skins, except for a few options.

Class skins such as Necromancer (Warlock), Tinker (Hunter) and Dark Ranger (Hunter), would more or less lock Blizzard out from creating a class with that theme. Which imo would really suck, as there are some really cool concepts floating around for all these classes. However, some class skins with less basis for a new class could be awesome. Things like Bloodknights for Belf Paladins, Tidesages for Kultiran Shamans and Witch Doctor for Troll/Zandalari Shamans (Kinda iffy about this one, as there could be a basis for a cool class) would be awesome, and could be added without removing the possibility of future classes.

The balance issues of adding a new class is imo a weak argument. There will always be balance issues, especially with all this borrowed power that we seem to get every expansion. The game will never be perfectly balanced, and I think the same is true for every MMORPG.

4th specs could be a nice addition to every class (yes even druids!) and open up more roles to existing classes. We could have a Ranged Rogue, focused on shadow magic and bow gameplay, a Tank Shaman focused on using the earth to shield themselves, chronomancy mages focused on healing, Inquisiter Priests focused on Holy Ranged DPS, a "more" Shapeshifting druids, weaving in and out of different forms to optimize their damage are all cool ideas that could bring a lot of life to the different classes.

With that said, I really hope for new classes such as the Dark Ranger, Tinker, Bard and Necromancer etc. as they would bring a lot to the game, and with a bit of creativity they would be very different from the counterparts that they are often compared to. I.e Dark Ranger = Hunter, Tinker = Engineer, Necromancer = Warlock/DK.

[username993720]

Allied Races add new gameplay, what the fuck you talking about?

You even said 'Racials, yes.' Racials are gameplay.

In the context of what i was quoting, no. Their racials do.

Sure, it would.

So would not painting themselves against a wall when designing specs as individual classes and having to balance it all, but we can't change that either. Not quite sure where you stand with your expectations, but the solution is likely never going to manifest as individual new classes.

It would solve the Elune and Loa beliefs lacking, and science being used for Gnomes.

It's got less of a chance happening than Priests getting their racials back, and we already know that's slim to none. And hell, I want my Priest racials back since it was the whole reason I rolled a Troll Priest in the first place.

Why not just hope for a fully-fledged Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter? much more exciting and representative than a couple of abilities.

That's irrelevant. The death knight's concept was developed with Arthas/Lich King.

I meant in-game. They dedicated a whole segment to the development of a Night Warrior concept.

Exactly. My question then was: if it was supposed to be a class, why was it not made into a class?

Because it's still in progress?

You said that what I said demonstrated why certain concepts become classes/races and other just cosmetics. If something is "demonstrated", it means it was shown, it was revealed.

It means there's a reason. I just can't say for sure what it is.

Wildhammers are different cultures from Ironforge dwarves. Sandfury trolls, Amani trolls, jungle trolls, etc, have different cultures to the Darkspear trolls. Blackrock, Laughing Skull, Frostwolves all have different cultures from each other, yet they're all 'one race'.

I mean outside of the game. That's a whole different debate... but, basically, Bronzebeards and Wildhammers are both scottish based, while the Mag'hars are 'supposed' to be the Magyar clans. As for Sandfury and Dark Trolls being incorporated into the Jungle Troll, i don't know if it's based on their shared model or cultures, since the bulkier types, like Forest and Frost Trolls, were excluded.

It's not, though. The amount of experience you get through the quests in your order hall while leveling is honestly negligible. I'm guessing at most it was one or two levels worth of experience.

Not in terms of XP. in terms of content.

... Your comparison is quite apt, but not in the way you imagine it is. Garrison has little content in terms of quest other than "go to this zone", just like Legion's order halls. Same thing with BfA's war campaigns.

So yes, Garrisons and War campaign could be completely cut off from the leveling experience and nothing of value would be lost in terms of leveling.

Hard to believe, as they were marketed as main expansion features.

... You know you can technically already do that, right? Threads of fate give you basically that, as throughout the entire leveling experience with Threads of Fate, you don't play the covenant campaigns at all, right?

Yes, but it would still be pretty lackluster.

Also, this is a comment from WoWhead:

"I have an alt that chose Threads of Fate, but did not complete the "Choosing Your Purpose" quest to choose a covenant. I saw that the flight paths were open in the realms and decided to level her crafting, starting with fishing and cooking. I flew to Bastion, and the quest to aid Bastion popped up when I entered the Zone. I can see all of the world quests and Sojourner quests for the areas, without choosing a covenant."

Someone can also level through fishing. Doesn't make it a prime choice, either.

- Nobody said Inquisitors were Shamans. Inquisitor could be a shaman skin, i.e. a Holy spellcaster with a healing, ranged, and dual-wielding melee spec, wearing mail armor (or plate, plus access to paladin-specific items), dropping "relics" instead of totems, summoning lightspawn instead of elementals, casting exorcism instead of lightning bolt, etc. The'd probably be able to wield swords and not daggers. No relation to Shamans, aside from the gameplay.

Farseer could be a tank/healing/two-handed class skin using all of the Paladin's mechanics and balance, but casting elemental spells instead of holy. Their healing spec would use water like the shaman, replace consecration with a rain+lightning thunderstorm visual. Divine steed? You mean a charging spirit kodo form?

You do realize these are already the Priest and Shaman, right?

As for undead with a connection to druidism... They raised a ton of Gilneans as Forsaken, and Gilneas definitely had druids. They could also be death druids like the Kul Tirans, or literally undead Kul Tirans given the presumption that the Forsaken are still recruiting via necromancy and they definitely killed a lot of those guys. They also have no connection to the Light, but now look at Calia. Playable races shouldn't be based on what is common, but what is possible. ....All of that said though, I really hope they'd put it behind an unlock questline like the Allied Races. I dont want to see *everyone* roll an undead druid, but the fact that they *could* be druids means we should be able to be them. Doesnt need a sunwalker-styled subfaction.

What? they could be Priests since vanilla and were said to manipulate the holy light (even if in a painful way).

[Triceron]

In the context of what i was quoting, no. Their racials do.

Racials is new gameplay. Allied races offer new gameplay. You said your point is they don't offer new gameplay at all. Sounds like you confused yourself and are trying to cover your ass.

Why not just hope for a fully-fledged Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter? much more exciting and representative than a couple of abilities.

Realistically, we're getting 1, maybe 2 more classes within the next 10 years. And everyone know this.

This is the root of why everyone argues so much over what new class is viable or not viable, because any potential class concept is a THREAT to the possibility of all others. They're all competing for the same space. It's like the Joker telling the mobsters he's inviting them to join his gang, but there's only room for one.

Any hope for a Shadow Hunter means one less spot for any other potential class in the game. There's no happy medium here where I can hope for a Shadow Hunter and also get a playable Spellbreaker and Blademaster too, with a Dark Ranger following hot on their heels. This isn't 2016 Heroes of the Storm when they pumped out a new Hero every couple months, this is 2021 Heroes of the Storm where you'd be lucky to even get a new skin for your favourite hero.

I personally would love a Shadow Hunter. I personally do not see the Shadow Hunter making the top 5 requested classes.
Hell, it doesn't even make my personal Top 5 list, even though I love the concept . So any hope for a Shadow Hunter would mean taking a potential spot away from that top 5. Is that really worth hoping for?

So no, I don't really put much 'hope' into any new class concept, because Blizzard isn't offering much to be hopeful for. They're the ones who decided to release 1-2 new classes every decade, and are willing to even forgoe their own pattern of new class every 2 expansions.

Maybe this explanation will make more sense to why I'm a supporter of the Class Skin concepts, because even though its an imperfect system and not a solution to any problem, it is an alternative that still allows new class identities to become formally playable. The realistic alternative is we get 1-2 playable and fuck the rest. They've painted themselves into a corner with current Spec-based class design, and it's unrealistic to assume the game can handle more than 6 more specs.

[username993720]

Racials is new gameplay. Allied races offer new gameplay. You said your point is they don't offer new gameplay at all. Sounds like you confused yourself and are trying to cover your ass.

You didn't get what i was referring to. You said new customization options, emotes and voices. This is what i meant by no new gameplay. The racials definitely do.

You are valuing new class additions as solutions to problems.

Blizzard does not add new classes as solutions to problems, because to them, lacking representation is not a problem.

Example is Demon Hunter. Was the game in need of this class being represented? No, because the game could exist fine without it being playable, and Warlocks did a fine job already covering Metamorphosis gameplay while Rogues covered the visual aesthetics with Warglaives for the sake of RP.

The singular reason Demon Hunters were added was because of popularity and demand. Because Blizzard knew this concept was bankable, and would help bring players back to Legion to play this new class. And we know this isn't just a new class thing, because Monks were never met with the same amount of hype and fanfare.

This is bullshit. The Warlock covered the Demon Hunter gameplay as much as Shaman cover that of a Shadow Hunter - barely.

So if we're talking about hoping for a future Shadow Hunter, then we have to look at the general demand for one. So how about it, do you see a community-wide push for playable Shadow Hunters? Because I don't.

You just acknowledged how the Monk was not demanded, yet still added, and you still think it is only based on demand? You can't just put all your money on player-demand, otherwise we would end up with Starcraft Marines as a playable class because someone decided it's a good pick and swept a whole crowd around him.

And if I were to ask you what the top 5 most requested and talked about New Classes are in the community, would Shadow Hunter even be on that list? Because orsctically no one voted for em in the last poll here, and I don't even see anyone talking about em on Reddit or the General Discussion forums at all.

Again with the poles.... it's not the only criteria. If Blizzard ran their game based on player demands, there would not be an outcry but, at the same time, it would also be a mess. They also have to take certain things into consideration. They don't just add whatever wins on the poles.

To be hopeful, you first have to be sensible enough to acknowledge whether anyone else cares about them. And personally? I'd love a Shadow Hunter class, just as I'd love a Wildhammer Allied Race. And let's face it, I'd be a fool to hope for the day Wildhammers get their own Allied Race, because that ship has sailed and its not like even Dark Irons were ever in demand; they exist as their own race because Blizzard needed to fill the 'Dwarf Subrace' status quo.

Yes, Blizzard cares about them. That's why Vol'jin is still relevant and would be relevant to the story. That's why it was a Hero unit back in WC3 and not just a basic one.

Are you comparing Shamans representing the Shadow Hunter to Bronzebeards representing the Wildhammer? We're talking about an entire class, opposed to a few racial traits. It's not even in the same ball-park.

What are you talking about? Dark Irons were in great demand.

This isn't 2016 Heroes of the Storm when they pumped out a new Hero every couple months, this is 2021 Heroes of the Storm where you'd be lucky to even get a new skin for your favourite hero.

That's on Blizzard's fault.

I personally would love a Shadow Hunter. I personally do not see the Shadow Hunter making the top 5 requested classes.
Hell, it doesn't even make my personal Top 5 list, even though I love the concept . So any hope for a Shadow Hunter would mean taking a potential spot away from that top 5. Is that really worth hoping for?

Top 5? who decided who the top 5 are? you? the community?
What if i were to say the top 5 are Tinker, Night Warrior, Blademaster and Shadow Hunter?

So no, I don't really put much 'hope' into any new class concept, because Blizzard isn't offering much to be hopeful for. They're the ones who decided to release 1-2 new classes every decade, and are willing to even forgoe their own pattern of new class every 2 expansions.

You desperation doesn't, necessarily, implies on their course of action.

Maybe this explanation will make more sense to why I'm a supporter of the Class Skin concepts, because even though its an imperfect system and not a solution to any problem, it is an alternative that still allows new class identities to become formally playable. The realistic alternative is we get 1-2 playable and fuck the rest. They've painted themselves into a corner with current Spec-based class design, and it's unrealistic to assume the game can handle more than 6 more specs.

It's a lackluster system that should be reserved to race/class combos only.

They can still add classes alongside it.

[rarhyx]

bring back the classes before do anything new
right now we don't have a class system we have a spec system and that sucks

[Eazy]

Class skin.

It won't require making new abilities or balancing the classes once again.
4th spec is too much work.
The new class is some middle-ground, but still a lot of work.
No need for the new combos.

[Triceron]

Bullshit

I didn't say they covered Demon Hunter gameplay. I said they covered Metamorphosis gameplay. Warlocks represented the Warcraft 3 style of Metamorphosis, properly repping a Ranged, magical based DPS form as the original. That is not 'Demon Hunter' gameplay, that is specifically Metamorphosis.

You just acknowledged how the Monk was not demanded, yet still added, and you still think it is only based on demand? You can't just put all your money on player-demand, otherwise we would end up with Starcraft Marines as a playable class because someone decided it's a good pick and swept a whole crowd around him.

Pandaren are KNOWN to be one of the most highly demanded additions to the game (MOP interviews), and were even frontrunners to being added in TBC if not for China censors. So yes, it was demand.

The problem? Monk itself was not a class in high demand. No one was asking for a 'Monk' class, while its creation is directly tied to the demand for Pandaren. Blizzard veey likely saw opportunity to add this class since they already had Runemaster gameplay scraps from the cutting room floor.

My personal opinion? I'd take Runemaster over Monk in Warcraft's high fantasy setting.

Again with the poles.... it's not the only criteria. If Blizzard ran their game based on player demands, there would not be an outcry but, at the same time, it would also be a mess. They also have to take certain things into consideration. They don't just add whatever wins on the poles.

You are right, they don't just add whatever is on polls.

But you'd be remiss to expect them to pull a niche out of nowhere too. Demand plays a big factor into these choices.

Yes, Blizzard cares about them. That's why Vol'jin is still relevant and would be relevant to the story. That's why it was a Hero unit back in WC3 and not just a basic one.

Vol'jin was a Witchdoctor in WC3, and was not a hero unit. You are mixing him up with Rokhan. They made Voljin look all Shadowhunter-like sometime in Cata or MOP.

Shadow Hunter was added in TFT, and Vol'jin was the witchdoctor who turned you and your party into spirit wyverns.

Are you comparing Shamans representing the Shadow Hunter to Bronzebeards representing the Wildhammer? We're talking about an entire class, opposed to a few racial traits. It's not even in the same ball-park.

What are you talking about? Dark Irons were in great demand.

Not past Cataclysm, when Dark Skin options and Mage and Warlock options were already available.

Pre-Cata? Yes there was high demand. After Cata? We already had them as customization options, so who exactly was asking for more?

That's on Blizzard's fault.

And it applies to WoW classes.

1-2 classes per decade with potential for these being the final two period. A result of Blizzard choosing to focus raid balance on specs rather than classes, and reaching a point of no return to go back to Vanilla's original design of 'bring the Class' 1 Raid role per Class.

They can still add classes alongside it.

I never said they couldn't.

It was never mutually exclusive. You do remember me explaining that its a 'worst case scenario' concept, right?

The examples of various class skin combinations was purely for the sake of discussion. It all operates on a 'What if Blizzard plans to never make this a New Class', and presenting possibilities for them as a class skin. At no point is it a replacement for actual new classes.

Did you really think it was being argued as a replacement??

Class Skins is what we want to have in the scenario where Blizzard plans _not_ to make something into a new class. Thats why we were discussing variations of every possible class, including Bards, Shadow Hunters, POTM and Tinkers. Not because we WANT ot to happen, but as a means of whether it could work and be plausible in the case where (for example) Blizzard happens to choose Warden and Sea Witch as the final classes, with no plans on ever making a Tinker, Necromancer or Dark Ranger or Shadow Hunter playable on its own. In that scenario, we can adapt those concepts as class skins.

[loras]

That would be a balancing nightmare.

A better idea would be to simply change Arms into the new Blademaster spec and add Blademaster concepts from WC3 and HotS.

True, then again upending existing speccs for classes is a very hard sell.

[username993720]

I didn't say they covered Demon Hunter gameplay. I said they covered Metamorphosis gameplay. Warlocks represented the Warcraft 3 style of Metamorphosis, properly repping a Ranged, magical based DPS form as the original. That is not 'Demon Hunter' gameplay, that is specifically Metamorphosis.

So, there was a lack of complete representation that required its addition.

Pandaren are KNOWN to be one of the most highly demanded additions to the game (MOP interviews), and were even frontrunners to being added in TBC if not for China censors. So yes, it was demand.

You talk about the race, not the class. Though, i don't remember a demand for the Pandaren. I do know they were considered for TBC. I don't think anyone demanded for a Pandaren-themed Monk when talking about a Monk class (not that i have a problem with it). I think most people expected the more known Buddhist Monk.

The problem? Monk itself was not a class in high demand. No one was asking for a 'Monk' class, while its creation is directly tied to the demand for Pandaren. Blizzard veey likely saw opportunity to add this class since they already had Runemaster gameplay scraps from the cutting room floor.

Probably.

My personal opinion? I'd take Runemaster over Monk in Warcraft's high fantasy setting.

Nah... the Monk is more exotic.

You are right, they don't just add whatever is on polls.

But you'd be remiss to expect them to pull a niche out of nowhere too. Demand plays a big factor into these choices.

A niche out of nowhere? The Shadow Hunter was a WC3 Hero unit, much like the Death Knight, Demon Hunter and Brewmaster. If it wasn't fitting enough, they couldn't have created a whole zone around this theme (Zandalar) and added Troll-based raids almost every other expansion.

Vol'jin was a Witchdoctor in WC3, and was not a hero unit. You are mixing him up with Rokhan. They made Voljin look all Shadowhunter-like sometime in Cata or MOP.

Shadow Hunter was added in TFT, and Vol'jin was the witchdoctor who turned you and your party into spirit wyverns.

Yes, Vol'jin is an exception. In WC3 he was a Witch Doctor. In WoW, he is a Shadow Hunter.
Yet, still the Shadow Hunter was a Hero unit, which, currently, Vol'jin is most iconicly represents.

Not past Cataclysm, when Dark Skin options and Mage and Warlock options were already available.

Pre-Cata? Yes there was high demand. After Cata? We already had them as customization options, so who exactly was asking for more?

What? pretty sure the dark skin colors were there from vanilla. They even had red eyes.

No, i meant lately, with the probability of subraces (now known as allied races). Dark Iron were high up there for this feature.

And it applies to WoW classes.

1-2 classes per decade with potential for these being the final two period. A result of Blizzard choosing to focus raid balance on specs rather than classes, and reaching a point of no return to go back to Vanilla's original design of 'bring the Class' 1 Raid role per Class.

Then, it is as dead of a game as HotS is. We shouldn't expect anything new since they apparently abandoned it, right? Well, this is not the case for WoW. It is still a much worked-on game. We just don't know what their plans or reasonings are.

I never said they couldn't.

It was never mutually exclusive. Did you operate on assuming I argued it would be?

Yes.
Your whole premise was "new classes are a dead thing. Class skins are the future".

It was never mutually exclusive. You do remember me explaining that its a 'worst case scenario' concept, right?

The examples of various class skin combinations was purely for the sake of discussion. It all operates on a 'What if Blizzard plans to never make this a New Class', and presenting possibilities for them as a class skin. At no point is it a replacement for actual new classes.

Did you really think it was being argued as a replacement??

Class Skins is what we want to have in the scenario where Blizzard plans _not_ to make something into a new class. Thats why we were discussing variations of every possible class, including Bards, Shadow Hunters, POTM and Tinkers. Not because we WANT ot to happen, but as a means of whether it could work and be plausible in the case where (for example) Blizzard happens to choose Warden and Sea Witch as the final classes, with no plans on ever making a Tinker, Necromancer or Dark Ranger or Shadow Hunter playable on its own. In that scenario, we can adapt those concepts as class skins.

That's quite grim of a prediction.