View Poll Results: You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

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403. You may not vote on this poll
  • New class

    158 39.21%
  • Class skins

    170 42.18%
  • 4th specs

    169 41.94%
  • New combos

    77 19.11%
  • Other

    43 10.67%
  • None

    35 8.68%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I didn't say they covered Demon Hunter gameplay. I said they covered Metamorphosis gameplay. Warlocks represented the Warcraft 3 style of Metamorphosis, properly repping a Ranged, magical based DPS form as the original. That is not 'Demon Hunter' gameplay, that is specifically Metamorphosis.
    So, there was a lack of complete representation that required its addition.

    Pandaren are KNOWN to be one of the most highly demanded additions to the game (MOP interviews), and were even frontrunners to being added in TBC if not for China censors. So yes, it was demand.
    You talk about the race, not the class. Though, i don't remember a demand for the Pandaren. I do know they were considered for TBC. I don't think anyone demanded for a Pandaren-themed Monk when talking about a Monk class (not that i have a problem with it). I think most people expected the more known Buddhist Monk.

    The problem? Monk itself was not a class in high demand. No one was asking for a 'Monk' class, while its creation is directly tied to the demand for Pandaren. Blizzard veey likely saw opportunity to add this class since they already had Runemaster gameplay scraps from the cutting room floor.
    Probably.

    My personal opinion? I'd take Runemaster over Monk in Warcraft's high fantasy setting.
    Nah... the Monk is more exotic.

    You are right, they don't just add whatever is on polls.

    But you'd be remiss to expect them to pull a niche out of nowhere too. Demand plays a big factor into these choices.
    A niche out of nowhere? The Shadow Hunter was a WC3 Hero unit, much like the Death Knight, Demon Hunter and Brewmaster. If it wasn't fitting enough, they couldn't have created a whole zone around this theme (Zandalar) and added Troll-based raids almost every other expansion.

    Vol'jin was a Witchdoctor in WC3, and was not a hero unit. You are mixing him up with Rokhan. They made Voljin look all Shadowhunter-like sometime in Cata or MOP.

    Shadow Hunter was added in TFT, and Vol'jin was the witchdoctor who turned you and your party into spirit wyverns.
    Yes, Vol'jin is an exception. In WC3 he was a Witch Doctor. In WoW, he is a Shadow Hunter.
    Yet, still the Shadow Hunter was a Hero unit, which, currently, Vol'jin is most iconicly represents.

    Not past Cataclysm, when Dark Skin options and Mage and Warlock options were already available.

    Pre-Cata? Yes there was high demand. After Cata? We already had them as customization options, so who exactly was asking for more?
    What? pretty sure the dark skin colors were there from vanilla. They even had red eyes.

    No, i meant lately, with the probability of subraces (now known as allied races). Dark Iron were high up there for this feature.

    And it applies to WoW classes.

    1-2 classes per decade with potential for these being the final two period. A result of Blizzard choosing to focus raid balance on specs rather than classes, and reaching a point of no return to go back to Vanilla's original design of 'bring the Class' 1 Raid role per Class.
    Then, it is as dead of a game as HotS is. We shouldn't expect anything new since they apparently abandoned it, right? Well, this is not the case for WoW. It is still a much worked-on game. We just don't know what their plans or reasonings are.

    I never said they couldn't.

    It was never mutually exclusive. Did you operate on assuming I argued it would be?
    Yes.
    Your whole premise was "new classes are a dead thing. Class skins are the future".

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It was never mutually exclusive. You do remember me explaining that its a 'worst case scenario' concept, right?

    The examples of various class skin combinations was purely for the sake of discussion. It all operates on a 'What if Blizzard plans to never make this a New Class', and presenting possibilities for them as a class skin. At no point is it a replacement for actual new classes.

    Did you really think it was being argued as a replacement??

    Class Skins is what we want to have in the scenario where Blizzard plans _not_ to make something into a new class. Thats why we were discussing variations of every possible class, including Bards, Shadow Hunters, POTM and Tinkers. Not because we WANT ot to happen, but as a means of whether it could work and be plausible in the case where (for example) Blizzard happens to choose Warden and Sea Witch as the final classes, with no plans on ever making a Tinker, Necromancer or Dark Ranger or Shadow Hunter playable on its own. In that scenario, we can adapt those concepts as class skins.
    That's quite grim of a prediction.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-09-17 at 11:14 AM.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  2. #162
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    True, then again upending existing speccs for classes is a very hard sell.
    Well considering that Arms is pretty listless and dull, I feel that a lot of Warrior players would be extremely excited about the idea of being able to play one of the classic WC3 hero characters.

  3. #163
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I meant in-game. They dedicated a whole segment to the development of a Night Warrior concept.
    Yeah. And the night warrior is going away.

    Because it's still in progress?
    How do you know it's "still in progress"? The way I see it, the "night warrior" thing for the players ended up already in BfA when we got those black eyes customization for night elves. After all, a night warrior's eyes become black when they transform, so technically those NE player characters are already 'night warrior'. So if a night warrior class is introduced, those NEs are "night warriors but not night warriors".

    That'd be akin to releasing demon hunter customization (blindfolds, horns, tattoos, and/or fel-pocked skin) for blood elves and night elves around Cata/MoP era, and then release the demon hunter class in Legion?

    It means there's a reason. I just can't say for sure what it is.
    Of course there is a reason. It's just meaningless to point that there is one when we have no idea what it is and no way to find out.

    Not in terms of XP. in terms of content.
    "Amount of content" is irrelevant as long as there is enough to get someone through the 10-50 level range. Which the leveling experience in Legion has more than enough of. You can reach level 50 in Legion zones before you even finish all four zones' leveling. Especially if you end up finding a demon invasion event a couple times.

    Hard to believe, as they were marketed as main expansion features.
    So were the class order halls, and yet, just like garrisons in WoD, they're completely irrelevant to the leveling experience. Tell me: aside from getting you started in Shadowmoon Valley and Frostfire Ridge, what important use did the garrisons have in the leveling experience? Nothing.

    Yes, but it would still be pretty lackluster.
    You were talking about leveling without covenant, and now that you've been shown that you can, you now move the goalposts to "but it wouldn't be fun."

    Someone can also level through fishing. Doesn't make it a prime choice, either.
    You're moving the goalposts again.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, there was a lack of complete representation that required its addition.
    There you go again with those words.

    What made this class required to be added? Because the game needed them to continue existing?

    Why do you use the word required here as of it were a necessity? You are aware that new classes are not mandatory right?

    A niche out of nowhere? The Shadow Hunter was a WC3 Hero unit, much like the Death Knight, Demon Hunter and Brewmaster. If it wasn't fitting enough, they couldn't have created a whole zone around this theme (Zandalar) and added Troll-based raids almost every other expansion.
    They are a niche as far as community-wide interest in them as a new class.

    There's Necromancers, Dark Rangers, Tinkers, Bards and Dragonsworn all to consider before most other options. How did I conclude these picks? In no particular order, these are all the most commonly discussed class concepts in the community so far. Check any new class discussion thread, any topic where new classes get discussed. You will regularly see them crop up in topics and polls. You will see people make fan builds and concepts.

    https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-2021-edition

    Two completely different polls, made by completely different people, and those 5 I list are common between both concepts. This is just an example of where I'm drawing these observations from. I'm pointing out the top 5 classes being considered by the community at large, sourcing mainly from WoW Gen Disc, Reddit and here. I'm not even going to include all the New Class youtube videos, since that's quite a rabbit hole to go down.


    So if your argument is that Shadow Hunter should be a playable class because it deserves to be, then we need to talk about what makes it deserve a spot more than any other class. And if it's not even being considered in polls, talked about in videos or even mentioned off-handedly in most New Class conversations, then is it not fair to consider this a niche? There's no active demand in the community for a Shadow Hunter class, compared to all the other options that are being discussed.

    I mean I will even ask you - if you knew the game only had room for 2 more classes and no more after that, would Shadow Hunter be one of those picks? Would you champion for a Shadow Hunter above all other concepts? I doubt many people would choose Shadow Hunter over any of the ones listed in the top 5.


    I'm coming from this statistically if you're going to ask me what classes *deserve* to be added. It's in the fans and Blizzard's best interest to appeal to the widest demographic, to satisfy the highest demand. No one is going to be happy if the devs double down on developing a new class that had less than 7% support on community polls. The devs are going to play by the 'Rule of Cool' and pick the one that they think is most appealing to the audience at large.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-17 at 04:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    in that text is nothing i would disagree with. baseline i 100% agree. but specific to that exact thematic (4th spec) they simply will not do this. they just can loose. i do this sw development job since 20 years in that business and i can gurantee you, this will not happen.

    if the next xpac brings 4th spec i pay you 10 million ingame gold.
    if the next xpac brings 4th spec, for SOME classes, i pay you 100 million ingame gold.

    you can quote this and blame me, when next xpac is released.
    I highly doubt we would get more specs (I'm not even sure we would get a new class tbh, even as a "in case of emergency break glass" measure), I just like the idea.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I highly doubt we would get more specs (I'm not even sure we would get a new class tbh, even as a "in case of emergency break glass" measure), I just like the idea.
    yeah, ofc there is nothing wrong with the idea per se. i personally would love it to have the possibility to play more different classes and their class mechanics on a high competitive level, without doing quests and all the „systems“ and treadmill stuff again. i would love accountwide rep. and i would love if wows classes would work like FFIVs classes (but i dont like FFIV as a game, its not for me). but all these things just not will happen and are rather unrealistic, because its just not Blizzards game design, philosophy and business model.

    but there is nothing wrong with „we can dream“.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah. And the night warrior is going away.
    Don't bet on it.
    That'd be just a waste time, resource and story.

    How do you know it's "still in progress"? The way I see it, the "night warrior" thing for the players ended up already in BfA when we got those black eyes customization for night elves. After all, a night warrior's eyes become black when they transform, so technically those NE player characters are already 'night warrior'. So if a night warrior class is introduced, those NEs are "night warriors but not night warriors".
    Oh, please do tell me how the black eyes option lets you do what a Night Warrior does.

    That'd be akin to releasing demon hunter customization (blindfolds, horns, tattoos, and/or fel-pocked skin) for blood elves and night elves around Cata/MoP era, and then release the demon hunter class in Legion?
    Like how Night elves had a blindfold option?

    Of course there is a reason. It's just meaningless to point that there is one when we have no idea what it is and no way to find out.
    So, if there is a reason behind it, you should expect the same for classes. Some deserve to be added as new classes, while others can be class skins.

    "Amount of content" is irrelevant as long as there is enough to get someone through the 10-50 level range. Which the leveling experience in Legion has more than enough of. You can reach level 50 in Legion zones before you even finish all four zones' leveling. Especially if you end up finding a demon invasion event a couple times.
    But, people who buy an expansion, or choose it through chromie, want the full experience. They don't always pick a specific expansion to rush through it.

    So were the class order halls, and yet, just like garrisons in WoD, they're completely irrelevant to the leveling experience. Tell me: aside from getting you started in Shadowmoon Valley and Frostfire Ridge, what important use did the garrisons have in the leveling experience? Nothing.
    It's not the leveling, it's the expansion experience. If someone pays a subscription, he doesn't want to be able to do just some of the content.

    You were talking about leveling without covenant, and now that you've been shown that you can, you now move the goalposts to "but it wouldn't be fun."
    It's not about fun, it's about getting the full experience. If the way to max level didn't matter, there's no reason for options at all.

    You're moving the goalposts again.
    I'm not. You're thinking about it technically. I'm telling you it's about the content itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There you go again with those words.

    What made this class required to be added? Because the game needed them to continue existing?

    Why do you use the word required here as of it were a necessity? You are aware that new classes are not mandatory right?
    Nothing is mandatory. Not even the continuity of the game.
    But, if you were someone who played a half-assed Demon Hunter through the Warlock, then a Demon Hunter was deserved.

    They are a niche as far as community-wide interest in them as a new class.
    Again with the community... the community also thinks flying donkeys are good content.

    There's Necromancers, Dark Rangers, Tinkers, Bards and Dragonsworn all to consider before most other options. How did I conclude these picks? In no particular order, these are all the most commonly discussed class concepts in the community so far. Check any new class discussion thread, any topic where new classes get discussed. You will regularly see them crop up in topics and polls. You will see people make fan builds and concepts.

    https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-2021-edition
    Necromancers have been integrated into the Death Knight, Bards barely exist and Dragonsworn haven't made it out of the RPG sources.
    You can't rely on community demand, because they would advocate for playable Far Seers while we have Shamans.

    Two completely different polls, made by completely different people, and those 5 I list are common between both concepts. This is just an example of where I'm drawing these observations from. I'm pointing out the top 5 classes being considered by the community at large, sourcing mainly from WoW Gen Disc, Reddit and here. I'm not even going to include all the New Class youtube videos, since that's quite a rabbit hole to go down.
    Maybe you should stop catering to community's wishes and pay more attention to what the devs have said, or implied, they wanted in game.

    So if your argument is that Shadow Hunter should be a playable class because it deserves to be, then we need to talk about what makes it deserve a spot more than any other class. And if it's not even being considered in polls, talked about in videos or even mentioned off-handedly in most New Class conversations, then is it not fair to consider this a niche? There's no active demand in the community for a Shadow Hunter class, compared to all the other options that are being discussed.
    I don't give a damn about polls, videos and conversations. They don't represent Blizzard.
    I'll give you a reason, alright:
    Shadow Hunter would encompass the Necromancer, through Bwonsamdi's powers, and more (through other Loas) while the necromancer wouldn't encompass the Shadow Hunter. It's miles more interesting and better designed than a Necromancer, who infringes on the Death Knight. You don't have a single Voodoo and Loa dedicated class, yet you advocate for the same thing as a Death Knight, just slightly different. That is illogical, like most of the community.

    I mean I will even ask you - if you knew the game only had room for 2 more classes and no more after that, would Shadow Hunter be one of those picks? Would you champion for a Shadow Hunter above all other concepts? I doubt many people would choose Shadow Hunter over any of the ones listed in the top 5.
    Yes. That and a Tinker. Probably the two most interesting and lacking archetypes in game. There's nothing even close to a Witch Doctor. And don't even start telling me a Shaman is.

    I'm coming from this statistically if you're going to ask me what classes *deserve* to be added. It's in the fans and Blizzard's best interest to appeal to the widest demographic, to satisfy the highest demand. No one is going to be happy if the devs double down on developing a new class that had less than 7% support on community polls. The devs are going to play by the 'Rule of Cool' and pick the one that they think is most appealing to the audience at large.
    Oh, so the community is going to decide for everyone what should and shouldn't be added and where the story goes? Well, fire the devs, the community already does that.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-09-17 at 06:08 PM.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  8. #168
    Give me tank shammies already

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Nothing is mandatory. Not even the continuity of the game.
    But, if you were someone who played a half-assed Demon Hunter through the Warlock, then a Demon Hunter was deserved.
    Then by that reason, Mountain King deserves a class because Warrior half asses it. Blood Mage deserves a class because Mage half-asses it. Surgeon and Sunwalker deserve classes because Paladin and Priest half ass it.

    Is this really the metric you want to use here? If you say deserve is based on not having a half-assed concept, then all of these deserve to be their own classes by that explanation, and I do not agree with your definition at all.

    Again with the community... the community also thinks flying donkeys are good content.
    About the same as people suggesting playable Night Warriors. That's about as popular as flying donkeys right now.

    You understand you are one of these flying donkey people right? You are part of the community. You are saying Alchemists should be a playable class. That's another flying donkey.

    Necromancers have been integrated into the Death Knight, Bards barely exist and Dragonsworn haven't made it out of the RPG sources.
    You can't rely on community demand, because they would advocate for playable Far Seers while we have Shamans.
    I'm not relying on community demand.

    Blizzard does.

    Again, my arguments are based on logic.

    Players think the game should go F2P. Sure, I can agree thats a great idea. Not gonna happen though. Why? Because Blizzard depends on it, and having sub fees affects circulation of WoW tokens as well. It's not what I rely on, it's what Blizzard relies on. And we can't pretend that Blizzard has any other reason to make the game F2P based on community demand alone. It doesn't make sense towards their goal of making WoW successful and profitable. It is not win-win.

    Making a new class that there is high demand for? That is win-win situation. Good for the company, good for the fans.

    So what is the goal of adding a Priestess of the Moon/Nightwarrior class if it isn't even highly regarded or popular? To satisfy a much smaller group of players for the sake of their own story building in Shadowlands? Well that serves very little for the rest of the fans who want a freshwr concept than another Hunter/Priest/DH hybrid that frankly very few people have expressed interest in as a playable class.

    Maybe you should stop catering to community's wishes and pay more attention to what the devs have said, or implied, they wanted in game.
    They still do cater to the community. Fuck dude, why do you think I'm even bothering factoring this in? You think I care about any of the top 5? I have no personal interest in any of them as playable classes, but they ARE the ones most likely to be picked from as a new class. And if they don't? Shitstorm, dude. Community backlash over picking a class option that 'no one cares about'.

    I don't give a damn about polls, videos and conversations. They don't represent Blizzard.
    No, you're unhappy with polls and videos and conversations because they don't represent you

    Just look at your own arguments. You happily support ideas that you agree with, and fight tooth and nail against ones you don't. Theres no consistency in your arguments because you are arguing what you want, rather than making any consistent argument that applies universally. Your arguments are based on defending what you want as a class that Deserves to be made, and dismissing everything else until you have no more excuses left to use. There is no common understanding for what 'Deserves' actually means, and its purely based on your personal opinion. Flying Donkey and Murlocs don't deserve a class, and your reason isn't based on logic, but your personal value of them as being undeserving.

    Like if I asked you why Necromancer doesn't deserve a class while Priestess of the Moon does, it comes down to you personally feeling that Druids, Hunters and Priests don't cover Tyrande while you think DK's cover the Undeath magic enough not to consider a new Undeath Spellcaster as deserving its own class. There is no consistent argument here.

    Double standards don't define what class 'deserves' to be made.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-17 at 07:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #170
    None. They should focus on removing systems and currencies and on producing more content. They already spend way too much time and resources on class balancing, we don't need to add to that.

  11. #171
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Don't bet on it.
    That'd be just a waste time, resource and story.
    Why would it be a waste? Time, resources and in-game story do not exist solely to bring in new classes, you know?

    Oh, please do tell me how the black eyes option lets you do what a Night Warrior does.
    If that's your take on what I wrote, you need to re-read my argument.

    Like how Night elves had a blindfold option?
    Anyone can wear blindfolds. I'm talking about demon hunter customization package.

    So, if there is a reason behind it, you should expect the same for classes. Some deserve to be added as new classes, while others can be class skins.
    And until we can sus out said reason(s), it is meaningless and irrelevant to bring out the existence of those non-disclosed reasons.

    But, people who buy an expansion, or choose it through chromie, want the full experience. They don't always pick a specific expansion to rush through it.
    "Full experience"? You mean they want to stay in that expansion indefinitely, work each and every single storyline, campaign, achievement, raid and transmog sets, before moving on?

    No, they don't. They pick a "Chromie time" option to level through.

    It's not the leveling, it's the expansion experience. If someone pays a subscription, he doesn't want to be able to do just some of the content.
    They don't pick Chromie time because they "want the expansion experience". That thing has moved on when it stopped being the current expansion, what with new classes/races and changes in gameplay. They pick whatever option in Chromie time because they think it'll be more enjoyable to level through not to "experience the whole expansion".

    It's not about fun, it's about getting the full experience. If the way to max level didn't matter, there's no reason for options at all.
    Who said it doesn't matter? I said that the Legion's class order halls are not needed for an enjoyable leveling experience.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Renedric View Post
    Give me tank shammies already
    Renedric knows whats up.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then by that reason, Mountain King deserves a class because Warrior half asses it. Blood Mage deserves a class because Mage half-asses it. Surgeon and Sunwalker deserve classes because Paladin and Priest half ass it.

    Is this really the metric you want to use here? If you say deserve is based on not having a half-assed concept, then all of these deserve to be their own classes by that explanation, and I do not agree with your definition at all.
    The Warrior, Mage and Paladin could definitely use some more, but the Demonology Warlock was not originally a transformer. It was a summoner of demons.

    About the same as people suggesting playable Night Warriors. That's about as popular as flying donkeys right now.

    You understand you are one of these flying donkey people right? You are part of the community. You are saying Alchemists should be a playable class. That's another flying donkey.
    That's the thing. I'm not asking for anything. I'm predicting.

    I'm not relying on community demand.

    Blizzard does.

    Again, my arguments are based on logic.

    Players think the game should go F2P. Sure, I can agree thats a great idea. Not gonna happen though. Why? Because Blizzard depends on it, and having sub fees affects circulation of WoW tokens as well. It's not what I rely on, it's what Blizzard relies on. And we can't pretend that Blizzard has any other reason to make the game F2P based on community demand alone. It doesn't make sense towards their goal of making WoW successful and profitable. It is not win-win.

    Making a new class that there is high demand for? That is win-win situation. Good for the company, good for the fans.
    Pretty sure they rely more on cash shop these days. Or, so i've heard...

    So what is the goal of adding a Priestess of the Moon/Nightwarrior class if it isn't even highly regarded or popular? To satisfy a much smaller group of players for the sake of their own story building in Shadowlands? Well that serves very little for the rest of the fans who want a freshwr concept than another Hunter/Priest/DH hybrid that frankly very few people have expressed interest in as a playable class.
    The goal of continuing their pattern of addition, that's what.
    What's the goal of adding a lore-less class like a Bard? what's the goal of adding a DK 2.0 when there are still unaccounted for fantasies like tech and voodoo? What's the point of adding a non-solidified concept like a Dragonsworn when some dragonflights imitate existing classes, like Mage and Druid.

    They still do cater to the community. Fuck dude, why do you think I'm even bothering factoring this in? You think I care about any of the top 5? I have no personal interest in any of them as playable classes, but they ARE the ones most likely to be picked from as a new class. And if they don't? Shitstorm, dude. Community backlash over picking a class option that 'no one cares about'.
    So, the community runs the show? quite different from what's actually happening...

    No, you're unhappy with polls and videos and conversations because they don't represent you
    No, actually. I really like watching them and participating in them (as you can see here). I just don't believe they are the Arbiters of what's added or not.

    Just look at your own arguments. You happily support ideas that you agree with, and fight tooth and nail against ones you don't. Theres no consistency in your arguments because you are arguing what you want, rather than making any consistent argument that applies universally. Your arguments are based on defending what you want as a class that Deserves to be made, and dismissing everything else until you have no more excuses left to use. There is no common understanding for what 'Deserves' actually means, and its purely based on your personal opinion. Flying Donkey and Murlocs don't deserve a class, and your reason isn't based on logic, but your personal value of them as being undeserving.

    Like if I asked you why Necromancer doesn't deserve a class while Priestess of the Moon does, it comes down to you personally feeling that Druids, Hunters and Priests don't cover Tyrande while you think DK's cover the Undeath magic enough not to consider a new Undeath Spellcaster as deserving its own class. There is no consistent argument here.

    Double standards don't define what class 'deserves' to be made.
    No, actually.
    It's not based on personal wishes. It's based on a prediction system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Why would it be a waste? Time, resources and in-game story do not exist solely to bring in new classes, you know?
    But, they wouldn't drop it either. There's absolutely no reason to develop Tyrande as a Night Warrior only to discard it.

    If that's your take on what I wrote, you need to re-read my argument.
    I don't have the energy.
    You basically claimed it covers the Night Warrior, when it doesn't.

    Anyone can wear blindfolds. I'm talking about demon hunter customization package.
    No, it was a homage to Demon Hunters. Otherwise, other races would have gotten so as well.

    And until we can sus out said reason(s), it is meaningless and irrelevant to bring out the existence of those non-disclosed reasons.
    Well, i have a reason but you wouldn't agree with it.

    "Full experience"? You mean they want to stay in that expansion indefinitely, work each and every single storyline, campaign, achievement, raid and transmog sets, before moving on?

    No, they don't. They pick a "Chromie time" option to level through.
    Not to that extent, but to enjoy its features and storylines.

    They don't pick Chromie time because they "want the expansion experience". That thing has moved on when it stopped being the current expansion, what with new classes/races and changes in gameplay. They pick whatever option in Chromie time because they think it'll be more enjoyable to level through not to "experience the whole expansion".
    And that enjoyment does not include Class Halls?

    Who said it doesn't matter? I said that the Legion's class order halls are not needed for an enjoyable leveling experience.
    Well... subjective, i'd say.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's the thing. I'm not asking for anything. I'm predicting.
    When you argue that certain classes 'deserve' to be playable, then that's wishful thinking, not prediction.

    So, the community runs the show? quite different from what's actually happening...
    9.1.5 is exactly Blizzard reacting to the community having left for FF14 en masse. Removing Conduits, bringing back Mage Tower, adding more customizations? Yeah, that's all stuff community has been demanding.

    The goal of continuing their pattern of addition, that's what.
    What's the goal of adding a lore-less class like a Bard? what's the goal of adding a DK 2.0 when there are still unaccounted for fantasies like tech and voodoo? What's the point of adding a non-solidified concept like a Dragonsworn when some dragonflights imitate existing classes, like Mage and Druid.
    The goal is satisfying the actual demand for it. You can shit on those concepts all you want, but in comparison that just makes alternatives like the Shadow Hunter, Alchemist and Night Warrior/POTM even less worthy when you consider there are 5x more people voting for lore-less Bards than they are asking for Shadow Hunters and Night Warriors.

    No, actually. I really like watching them and participating in them (as you can see here). I just don't believe they are the Arbiters of what's added or not.
    They aren't. I didn't say they were. Blizzard is the arbiter.

    And Blizzard will take the community-wide interest into account when factoring in their decisions. Again, you're regarding them picking classes as if it's done in a bubble. That's never been the case, and every choice gets deliberated internally and subject to internal votes and decisions, as well as filtering through a 'Rule of Cool' even if it means butchering other classes (including ones that haven't been made, like Necromancers and Runemasters) to do so.

    Class decisions are not simply based on whatever archaic methods you consider 'Deserving' to be a class.

    No, actually.
    It's not based on personal wishes. It's based on a prediction system.
    One that is highly tuned to your biases.


    This includes being unable to consider a Necromancer class because you think that they can't use anything but Maldraxxus magic. It's hard to predict anything with accuracy when you're intentionally blinding yourself. Unable to predict Class Skins because you personally think the concepts deserve to be more than just cosmetics. Unable to predict how many classes will be added to the game, because you're ignoring the spec bloat and balance issues that are clearly becoming problematic.

    If you want to accurately predict, then you have to open your eyes to all concepts, not just the ones you want to see while ignoring or dismissing the ones that don't happen to be convenient to you.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-18 at 01:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #175
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    But, they wouldn't drop it either. There's absolutely no reason to develop Tyrande as a Night Warrior only to discard it.
    Why do you think they wouldn't drop it? Blizzard has dropped so many things in the game. For example: remember the Throne of the Tides dungeon in the Cataclysm expansion? Neptulon is captured by the end of the dungeon, and we were supposed to rescue him in a raid dungeon which its entrance can still be found next to the dungeon entrance. But the raid itself never went live, and so Neptulon's story was dropped, as next we see him he's free, and not a single mention or allusion of his earlier capture.

    And again, Blizzard is technically "discarding" the night warrior as we're working on a way to remove it from Tyrande.

    I don't have the energy.
    You basically claimed it covers the Night Warrior, when it doesn't.
    It does, though. Nothing else in the lore gives night elves pitch-black eyes. And we happen to get that customization option the moment Tyrande gets those black eyes too, through the night warrior transformation. I'll repeat: if Blizzard intends to bring the night warrior as a class, why give night warrior-only customization to the night elf race?

    No, it was a homage to Demon Hunters. Otherwise, other races would have gotten so as well.
    Read above. What I'm saying is that just giving them blindfolds does not mean "demon hunter!" Anyone can wear blindfolds, this isn't an exclusive characteristics that only demon hunters can do. Whereas the only thing that grants night elves black eyes is the night warrior transformation.

    Well, i have a reason but you wouldn't agree with it.
    And yet you said you couldn't say for sure what the reason was?

    Not to that extent, but to enjoy its features and storylines.
    And you have a big storyline to go through in the four zones of the game. If you wish to slow down your own leveling and do your order hall campaign, you're free to do so. The whole point is that order halls are not necessary for leveling therefore Blizzard doesn't have to develop a new order hall, new artifact weapons, new champions, new storylines, new campaigns, etc, for every new class they add from here onwards.

    And that enjoyment does not include Class Halls?
    No, because new classes are highly unlikely to ever get Legion class halls. We didn't get DK and DH tier sets for the vanilla raids and TBC raids, so why would new classes get Legion order halls?

    Well... subjective, i'd say.
    Class order halls are not necessary for a new class to seamlessly level through Legion.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-09-18 at 12:22 AM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Class order halls are not necessary for a new class to seamlessly level through Legion.
    This should be absolutely emphasized.

    I did all of Legion's regular questing without doing any specific Order Hall quests. They weren't necessary at all for the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    When you argue that certain classes 'deserve' to be playable, then that's wishful thinking, not prediction.
    Because that's how Blizzard has been operating. Many would have claimed the Demon Hunter didn't deserve its own place, but Blizzard decided otherwise.

    9.1.5 is exactly Blizzard reacting to the community having left for FF14 en masse. Removing Conduits, bringing back Mage Tower, adding more customizations? Yeah, that's all stuff community has been demanding.
    Now that it has been damaging their profits. Was this the case all these years?

    The goal is satisfying the actual demand for it. You can shit on those concepts all you want, but in comparison that just makes alternatives like the Shadow Hunter, Alchemist and Night Warrior/POTM even less worthy when you consider there are 5x more people voting for lore-less Bards than they are asking for Shadow Hunters and Night Warriors.
    Because that's what they know from games like FFXIV. On the other hand, Blizzard has been developing the lore of the PotM with Tyrande and has been setting up Vol'jin to be reborn. Meanwhile, Bards are mostly NPCs with a guitar in hand, playing music in taverns or something like that.

    They aren't. I didn't say they were. Blizzard is the arbiter.

    And Blizzard will take the community-wide interest into account when factoring in their decisions. Again, you're regarding them picking classes as if it's done in a bubble. That's never been the case, and every choice gets deliberated internally and subject to internal votes and decisions, as well as filtering through a 'Rule of Cool' even if it means butchering other classes (including ones that haven't been made, like Necromancers and Runemasters) to do so.

    Class decisions are not simply based on whatever archaic methods you consider 'Deserving' to be a class.
    You are right. These are factors, among others.
    Blizzard weighs it like they did with the Necromancer, Runemaster and Death Knight for WotLK (which, we know how it ended).

    One that is highly tuned to your biases.


    This includes being unable to consider a Necromancer class because you think that they can't use anything but Maldraxxus magic. It's hard to predict anything with accuracy when you're intentionally blinding yourself. Unable to predict Class Skins because you personally think the concepts deserve to be more than just cosmetics. Unable to predict how many classes will be added to the game, because you're ignoring the spec bloat and balance issues that are clearly becoming problematic.

    If you want to accurately predict, then you have to open your eyes to all concepts, not just the ones you want to see while ignoring or dismissing the ones that don't happen to be convenient to you.
    Fan made concepts.
    The Dragonsworn have never been said to be a Dragon with a humanoid form, using the power of the aspects.
    The Bard have never been said to be a Rock star.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Why do you think they wouldn't drop it? Blizzard has dropped so many things in the game. For example: remember the Throne of the Tides dungeon in the Cataclysm expansion? Neptulon is captured by the end of the dungeon, and we were supposed to rescue him in a raid dungeon which its entrance can still be found next to the dungeon entrance. But the raid itself never went live, and so Neptulon's story was dropped, as next we see him he's free, and not a single mention or allusion of his earlier capture.

    And again, Blizzard is technically "discarding" the night warrior as we're working on a way to remove it from Tyrande.
    Well, he still came back. Blizzard didn't throw him out of the window, just his story. If i had to guess, after Tyrande is stripped of her powers, it would be revealed that we are special enough (like we always are) to be the representatives of Elune's wrath.

    It does, though. Nothing else in the lore gives night elves pitch-black eyes. And we happen to get that customization option the moment Tyrande gets those black eyes too, through the night warrior transformation. I'll repeat: if Blizzard intends to bring the night warrior as a class, why give night warrior-only customization to the night elf race?
    Again, do we get special powers alongside it?
    Maybe it was because we were part of the Night elves who were affected by the Black Moon in Darkshore. They didn't get Tyrande's powers, as well, did they?
    Why add it? to accommodate for players' demands, to hype it up, or to hint at an upcoming class

    Read above. What I'm saying is that just giving them blindfolds does not mean "demon hunter!" Anyone can wear blindfolds, this isn't an exclusive characteristics that only demon hunters can do. Whereas the only thing that grants night elves black eyes is the night warrior transformation.
    How many other archetypes are known to wear a blindfold (and night elven, at that)?

    And yet you said you couldn't say for sure what the reason was?
    I said it about the races, not the classes.

    And you have a big storyline to go through in the four zones of the game. If you wish to slow down your own leveling and do your order hall campaign, you're free to do so. The whole point is that order halls are not necessary for leveling therefore Blizzard doesn't have to develop a new order hall, new artifact weapons, new champions, new storylines, new campaigns, etc, for every new class they add from here onwards.
    They do, because that would be discriminating.

    No, because new classes are highly unlikely to ever get Legion class halls. We didn't get DK and DH tier sets for the vanilla raids and TBC raids, so why would new classes get Legion order halls?
    Hmmm... haven't thought about that. Though, they can use other classes' sets. Can a new class use other classes' order halls?

    Class order halls are not necessary for a new class to seamlessly level through Legion.
    Well, i guess we'll have to wait for a new class.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-09-18 at 10:55 AM.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  18. #178
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Well, he still came back. Blizzard didn't throw him out of the window, just his story. If i had to guess, after Tyrande is stripped of her powers, it would be revealed that we are special enough (like we always are) to be the representatives of Elune's wrath.
    Yes, he still came back. But, again, not a single peep about how he was kidnapped by Azshara's minions back in Cataclysm or how he broke free. The entire storyline was dropped, demonstrating that Blizzard is not adverse to simply dropping storylines suddenly.

    Again, do we get special powers alongside it?
    Maybe it was because we were part of the Night elves who were affected by the Black Moon in Darkshore. They didn't get Tyrande's powers, as well, did they?
    Why add it? to accommodate for players' demands, to hype it up, or to hint at an upcoming class
    This has nothing to do with 'special powers'. My question was: why give night warrior specific customization to all the night elves, if Blizzard is planning on making the night warrior a class? That makes no sense. It's like giving demon hunter horns, demonic eyes and fel-pocked skin to all night elves and blood elves long before the playable class is added.

    How many other archetypes are known to wear a blindfold (and night elven, at that)?
    Dude. Stop. A blindfold is just a piece of cloth wrapped around someone's eyes. Anyone can wear a blindfold anytime they want. No night elf can have pitch-black eyes unless they're affected by the night warrior.

    I said it about the races, not the classes.
    And then you said that "if there is one for the races, it's the same for the classes".

    They do, because that would be discriminating.
    HAHAHAHAH!!!

    Come on, not even you believe that nonsense. "Discriminating"? Really? REALLY!? Wow, way to misuse the word. No, it's not "discrimination", at all. Legion is no longer the current expansion, therefore it's not getting anything else added to it unless it's absolutely necessary, and new class order halls for new classes added post-Legion are absolutely not necessary.

    Hmmm... haven't thought about that. Though, they can use other classes' sets. Can a new class use other classes' order halls?
    No. No, they can't. You won't see a demon hunter wearing Thunderheart Raiments or a death knight wearing Justicar Armor.

    Well, i guess we'll have to wait for a new class.
    No, we don't. That is an already established fact. You don't need the class order halls to level through the Legion zones without a hitch.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  19. #179
    Keyboard Turner tehBob's Avatar
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    Shaman 4th spec. Tank.

  20. #180
    I think Class Skins is a huge waste of time. I would much rather have sub classes based on Race Class combinations. Let Dwarf hunters become Snipers (only viable to use a gun), and let Night Elf hunters become Archers (only viable to use bow). The subclasses won't change too much but enough to make ppl feel unique.

    I don't think it's realistic for all race/class combos to get a sub class, and that's OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehBob View Post
    Shaman 4th spec. Tank.
    Please no, I enjoy playing a class that noone can ask to "switch spec to tank".

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