You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[Deferionus]

I honestly cannot believe class skins are doing this well. They are a terrible idea. The appearance and ability animations communicate a lot of what is happening in the game world if you are someone who does not rely on addons to play the game for you. I played to 2700 in 3s and 3k in RBGs without addons and I did it by mentally tracking drs, ccs, and other cds based on ability animations, cast bars, and focus targets. If they add class skins that makes doing that much harder because the animations of abilities will have two to recognize instead of just one.

[DatToffer]

^This guy gets it.

[Spazzix]

Just keep the current classes and specs fresh with:
More frequent balancing
More frequent cycling of completely stale and mostly unused talents
More frequent reworks of specs and mechanics with largely subpar feedback
A few more talent options with more depth to mold a generic spec for a better fit with an individual's or group's playstyle.

[Kyphael]

New class, skins and fourth spec.

[Triceron]

It's not Blizzard who doesn't care. Remember that void elves didn't look like blood elves and weren't supposed to, as stated by Ion in a interview.

You put the same helm on both and you wouldn't know the difference. Are Ion's words really worth anything here when they're also the same people making the changes to make them similar? Just the same, he can come out and say 'Oh our minds have changed, we want to be open to customization more than be restricted by confusing appearances' and that would just as easily apply for all the stuff we're talking about with Class Skins.

Hell, they don't even have to say it, they're already doing it.

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I honestly cannot believe class skins are doing this well. They are a terrible idea. The appearance and ability animations communicate a lot of what is happening in the game world if you are someone who does not rely on addons to play the game for you. I played to 2700 in 3s and 3k in RBGs without addons and I did it by mentally tracking drs, ccs, and other cds based on ability animations, cast bars, and focus targets. If they add class skins that makes doing that much harder because the animations of abilities will have two to recognize instead of just one.

And you'll get used to it. You adapted to Covenants adding new abilities to every class and getting used to the differences between a Venthyr Paladin or a Night Fae Paladin all the same, even without any visual cues to hint at which Covenant they are. Arguably, even Sylvanas' Bow and Quiver will be modifying certain abilities for Hunters, so you have to adapt to that as well.

I'd even argue that if you're tracking animation of abilities, then adding new Races complicates that for you more since each race uses their own animations. You got used to them all though, right?

[DatToffer]

You put the same helm on both and you wouldn't know the difference. Are Ion's words really worth anything here when they're also the same people making the changes to make them similar? Just the same, he can come out and say 'Oh our minds have changed, we want to be open to customization more than be restricted by confusing appearances' and that would just as easily apply for all the stuff we're talking about with Class Skins.

Hell, they don't even have to say it, they're already doing it.

I don't care enough to die on a hill. I don't take fan design ideas this seriously. Just don't come at me with ifs. If they go with a full plate armor, if they wear a helmet. It's not relevant because what I'm saying is this is the base mentality of Blizzard dev :

Races look like themselves and not another. Until you whine enough and they make it so that they don't. The silhouette was the only thing blood elf in the void elves. They had a proper identity that was theirs.

And I don't believe this mentality will change naturally.

[Triceron]

I don't care enough to die on a hill. I don't take fan design ideas this seriously. Just don't come at me with ifs. If they go with a full plate armor, if they wear a helmet. It's not relevant because what I'm saying is this is the base mentality of Blizzard dev :

And obviously the changes we have now indicate that the base mentality has changed.

If not, then what exactly are you arguing here? That their base mentality still tracks while they continue to share cosmetics between Blood Elves and Void Elves?

[DatToffer]

And obviously the changes we have now indicate that the base mentality has changed.

If not, then what exactly are you arguing here? That their base mentality still tracks while they continue to share cosmetics between Blood Elves and Void Elves?

Well, I think there are limits to these changes. They compromised on void elves because high-elf wannabe whined so hard.

But they didn't compromise on morphing toys.
The new Mage Tower access proves they are not ready to compromise on old challenge appearances.
The fact that the majority of the upcoming Nightborne and Ravencrest mogs were implemented by an employee during his free time shows that they are not ready to compromise on npc gear.

And all those are things the community has been wanting for a long time.

So the chances that they compromise on classes spells, their visual identity, are pretty low, IMO. Unless you're ready to open threads on every forum that you know and make them last for thousands and thousands of pages of whining about how you should get what you want.

I guess that's my point. Be ready to whine a lot, or be ready to receive the minimal effort : recolor FX for spells.

[Triceron]

Well, I think there are limits to these changes. They compromised on void elves because high-elf wannabe whined so hard.

But they didn't compromise on morphing toys.
The new Mage Tower access proves they are not ready to compromise on old challenge appearances.
The fact that the majority of the upcoming Nightborne and Ravencrest mogs were implemented by an employee during his free time shows that they are not ready to compromise on npc gear.

And all those are things the community has been wanting for a long time.

So the chances that they compromise on classes spells, their visual identity, are pretty low, IMO. Unless you're ready to open threads on every forum that you know and make them last for thousands and thousands of pages of whining about how you should get what you want.

I guess that's my point. Be ready to whine a lot, or be ready to receive the minimal effort : recolor FX for spells.

I mean by that measure, we shouldn't ask for a new class at all because it's a lot of work?

We shouldn't ask for more customizations because it's a lot of work?

Where exactly do you draw the line for what your personally think is whining, and what you consider a realistic compromise? I'm fine if your tolerance is different is mine and I'm happy to agree-to-disagree on certain points, I just want to make sure your argument isn't over-reaching for the sake of discussion. I feel like your perception of 'whining' is influencing the way you are presenting arguments, and it feels like you're subjecting Class Skins as making zero sense for the sake of dismissing the whining, more than discussing the actual merits and drawbacks of the feature itself.

As a point of reference, I'm a supporter of Class Skins, and I hate the idea of it at the same time. I would rather Blizzard simply make new classes instead of Class Skins at all, but the reality is you'd have to whine *MORE* for a Dark Ranger or a Necromancer or a Bard class to be playable and the chances are still next-to-impossible. Class Skins would a much more practical way to reach common ground. Similar to how we don't actually have playable Mountain Kings or Blood Mages, but they met half-way with adding Talents that cover some abilities, or Artifact weapons that allow you the customization. And Class Skins is more or less a Formal way of adding those cosmetics as permanent additions, not just 'borrowed power'.


And as a side note, when it comes to Blizzard doing anything, I mean... squeaky wheel gets the oil has been traditionally how fans get anything. This applies to how balance changes being influenced by fan outcry, and even goes as far back as WC3 and having fan favourite 'Joke' classes like Brewmasters and Tinkers added as playable heroes.

[DatToffer]

I mean by that measure, we shouldn't ask for a new class at all because it's a lot of work?

We shouldn't ask for more customizations because it's a lot of work?

You should ask harder or lower your standards.

But by all means, follow your dreams. You know what it takes to make the change happen, you are right to say it can happen. Just follow the high-elf road.

My fight is for eyebrows and beards for races who don't have them. Sadly, I'm European so I can't post on US official forums where the change happens.

[Ielenia]

Technically true. Doesn't change the fact that Blizzard doesn't compromise character identity unless pressured to.

Blizzard has been doing that for a long time without needing to be "pressured to".

Remember Wildhammer dwarves? Culture-wise they're polar opposites of the Ironforge dwarves in many ways. For example: the Wildhammer dwarves greatly favor open skies and flying on their gryphons. Ironforge dwarves greatly favor staying on the ground: "keep your feet on the ground" is one of their NPC quotes. And yet both groups were merged together into one, which greatly compromises the Wildhammer identity.

Mag'har orcs? All those different tribes, merged into one. Their racial gives you a random buff named after the mag'har orc clans. Nothing like wanting to play as a Frostwolf but get the "Might of the Blackrock" or "Rictus of the Laughing Skull" buffs.

[AcidicSyn]

Class Skins suffer from lacking strong identity and fresh gameplay. They're also bound to the performance of the Core class, so if Warlocks happen to perform poorly in an expansion, then so would a Necromancer Class Skin that uses its same gameplay.

4th specs suffer from too much gameplay bloat, and having to satisfy a 'status quo' without strong identities (ie Spellcaster Pally, yet another Rogue spec). There's no easy way to just add one or two new 4th specs without an expectation for every class to get its fair share.



So I'm presenting an 'Other' concept I call Echo Classes, taking a note from Smash Bros' alternate skins and gameplay for characters

An Echo Class is a New Class that introduces one New Spec that defines them as a standalone Class. They also share existing Specs with Core Classes as 'filler', to round out the gameplay.
- Echo Classes can adapt 1-2 existing Core Class specs. This allows some Echo Classes to simply have 2 specs, like Demon Hunters.
- Echo Classes can draw from multiple Core Classes. This is a special case for certain concepts.


Example:

Dark Ranger is a well established concept from Warcraft 3. There's plenty of overlap with Hunters, and could easily be a class skin. However they have certain abilities that aren't present in Hunter class to be fully represented by Hunters. If made into a 4th spec, then we'd get some odd mixes of Tauren or Mechagnome that may not really fit the fantasy of a Dark Ranger.

As an Echo Class, a Dark Ranger would have full control over what weapon types it uses, what races can be played, and still have its full fantasy be carried out through a new spec designed specifically for them. Dark Rangers could adapt Marksmanship from Hunters as their bread-and-butter Ranged spec, adapt Subtlety from Rogues as a stealthy, shadowy assassin, and add an all new Domination spec that envelops the Charm and Possession abilities and spellcasting Banshee themes, while still retaining Physical-Ranged auto attack gameplay.


With this method, an Echo Class is treated like a New class that only needs to add 1 brand new spec to the game at a per-class basis. It's not like 4th Specs where adding just 1 new 4th Spec opens the doors to everyone expecting their own class to get a new spec. It's not like Class skins where there's zero new gameplay to speak of. This would be a controlled way of rolling out new Class concepts while minimizing the bloat of adding 2-3 new specs to the game at a time.

How would echo classes work with existing content? (and this question applies to class skins while we're at it I think)

For example: I create my brand new Dark Ranger echo class, I select Legion as my leveling experience; which class order hall story do I experience? Is it omitted entirely?

Does my Warlock-Necromancer go through a story about subduing demons? Or should Blizzard create new experiences in both cases specifically for leveling content? (which is not a bad thing in my opinion, certainly less jarring than, say, my Tauren Sunwalker class skin going through the Lights Hope story)

[DatToffer]

Blizzard has been doing that for a long time without needing to be "pressured to".

Remember Wildhammer dwarves? Culture-wise they're polar opposites of the Ironforge dwarves in many ways. For example: the Wildhammer dwarves greatly favor open skies and flying on their gryphons. Ironforge dwarves greatly favor staying on the ground: "keep your feet on the ground" is one of their NPC quotes. And yet both groups were merged together into one, which greatly compromises the Wildhammer identity.

Mag'har orcs? All those different tribes, merged into one. Their racial gives you a random buff named after the mag'har orc clans. Nothing like wanting to play as a Frostwolf but get the buff "Might of the Blackrock" or "Rictus of the Laughing Skull" buffs.

I see your point and I guess it all came down to making a choice.

Wildhammer sure are different from Bronzebeard. But Dark Iron are even more different visually. Although I really feel that Wildhammer allied race would have had more interesting racials...

Mag'har tribes have difference among themselves, but I guess Uncorrupted orcs / Corrupted orcs was enough of a distinction to throw all the tribes in the same pit.

How would echo classes work with existing content? (and this question applies to class skins while we're at it I think)

For example: I create my brand new Dark Ranger echo class, I select Legion as my leveling experience; which class order hall story do I experience? Is it omitted entirely?

Does my Warlock-Necromancer go through a story about subduing demons? Or should Blizzard create new experiences in both cases specifically for leveling content? (which is not a bad thing in my opinion, certainly less jarring than, say, my Tauren Sunwalker class skin going through the Lights Hope story)

The idea that we might never have a new class because it wouldn't fit anywhere in the Legion leveling experience makes me sad-giggling.

[crakerjack]

I’m down for all the options except for a new class. The last thing WoW needs is a new class and that’s coming from someone who actually invests the time to play them all. I really liked the reskinned idea and think it’s the most applicable. It would be an easy way to implement concepts I’ve seen without having to worry about balancing.

[thunderdragon2]

this game doesn't need any of these as they cant balance what they have properly

[AcidicSyn]

I see your point and I guess it all came down to making a choice.

Wildhammer sure are different from Bronzebeard. But Dark Iron are even more different visually. Although I really feel that Wildhammer allied race would have had more interesting racials...

Mag'har tribes have difference among themselves, but I guess Uncorrupted orcs / Corrupted orcs was enough of a distinction to throw all the tribes in the same pit.




The idea that we might never have a new class because it wouldn't fit anywhere in the Legion leveling experience makes me sad-giggling.

Oh dear didn't mean to do that lol

Maybe they'll just give you a buff that makes up for the xp, make a generic one for new classes, or just outright make those classes unable to pick legion as their leveling path lol

[username993720]

All i want is Elune themed priest spell effects.

If it requires a Class skin feature to exist, then yes please.

It's called a Priestess of the Moon, or a Night Warrior.

If you take away the graphics and the flavor text all the classes operate similarily, with a few deviations

These "few" deviations is what class skins advocates don't take into account.
"ah, well, we'll deal with that later... but, it totally works".

I see no harm if someone being a Blood Elf druid if they wish, or a Tauren rogue, as goofy as that might seem.

Normally, i would be against your suggestion. But, Blood elves botanists and Rangers already use druidic magic and Grimtotem Tauren can already be Rogues.

If people are okay with Gnomes who aren't undead being Dark Rangers, then sure, thats possible. I think my idea works better to control the exact races and lore as a New class would, without the need for 3 completely new specs to do so.

Not as a Hunter spec, but as a new class spec.
And your idea just rips off several specs from different classes, which i believe would affect balancing.

Remember Wildhammer dwarves? Culture-wise they're polar opposites of the Ironforge dwarves in many ways. For example: the Wildhammer dwarves greatly favor open skies and flying on their gryphons. Ironforge dwarves greatly favor staying on the ground: "keep your feet on the ground" is one of their NPC quotes. And yet both groups were merged together into one, which greatly compromises the Wildhammer identity.

Mag'har orcs? All those different tribes, merged into one. Their racial gives you a random buff named after the mag'har orc clans. Nothing like wanting to play as a Frostwolf but get the "Might of the Blackrock" or "Rictus of the Laughing Skull" buffs.

There's truth in your words, but it also demonstrates what is, and what isn't, worth a new race [or class].

The idea that we might never have a new class because it wouldn't fit anywhere in the Legion leveling experience makes me sad-giggling.

It seems like they didn't take that into consideration when they made the feature.
They'd have to update it everytime they add a new class.

[DatToffer]

Oh dear didn't mean to do that lol

Maybe they'll just give you a buff that makes up for the xp, make a generic one for new classes, or just outright make those classes unable to pick legion as their leveling path lol

I guess the last solution would be the easier, yeah.

It seems like they didn't take that into consideration when they made the feature.
They'd have to update it everytime they add a new class.

Yeah. Luckily now that they've revamped the lvling experience, there's possibility to just skip it.

[Teriz]

It seems like they didn't take that into consideration when they made the feature.
They'd have to update it everytime they add a new class.

Considering that they release a new class every 4-6 years, that isn't a huge problem.

[Raetary]

It's called a Priestess of the Moon, or a Night Warrior.

... Yes?
i'm aware of that.

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this game doesn't need any of these as they cant balance what they have properly

Class/race combos or class skins don't have anything to do with balancing.