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  1. #1

    Were Holy Pallies this bad originally in TBC?

    Was starting to wonder how this guy would do in 25s because his Gruul/Mag numbers were always pretty low but even with full t4 bis he's our worst healer on every TK and SSC fight by a huge margin. We run with six heals, a mix of 2 shaman and hpriests, one resto druid and the paladin. Even if all he has to do is spam holy light on the tanks, shouldn't he be pulling more than 400-500 hps at this point? Or are the other healers "sniping" his heals? Don't want to lose him because of the blessings but also seems like kind of a wasted spot. fwiw they always parse high in Kara

  2. #2
    6 healers is really on the high side of healers, Mag and Gruul are certainly doable with 4 healers.

    Holypallies are pretty damn mana efficient healers, but Resto Druids rule because Lifebloom is extremely strong, add to this that they're effectively limited to tankhealing, which is inheritely spiky and random and it's obvious to see why they're lowest on hps charts.
    Whereas a Shaman might spam CH, a Holy pally will stand there and attempt to snipe heals on the MT, while is naturally dampened by the Resto Druid just rolling hots on him.

    Incoming raiddamage is at the end of the day limited and if you run too many healers, some will look rather terrible on the meters.

  3. #3
    It's six that we're running in t5 content and we just got our first full SSC and TK clears tonight (go us!). Oddly, the only fight he did well on was the Vashj fight. I don't think we'll be ready to go down to 4 or even 5 for a month or so, as long as we're getting the kills. But anyway yeah I guess in terms of overall performance they'd be the first I cut but when I was talking about it in officer chat just now immediately everyone started whining about the third blessing. Maybe I should just have him do some random ret/holy spec to up damage a bit. Now that I'm looking at tonight's parses it looks like a super shitty spec to play with overheal at like 75%.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    Was starting to wonder how this guy would do in 25s because his Gruul/Mag numbers were always pretty low but even with full t4 bis he's our worst healer on every TK and SSC fight by a huge margin. We run with six heals, a mix of 2 shaman and hpriests, one resto druid and the paladin. Even if all he has to do is spam holy light on the tanks, shouldn't he be pulling more than 400-500 hps at this point? Or are the other healers "sniping" his heals? Don't want to lose him because of the blessings but also seems like kind of a wasted spot. fwiw they always parse high in Kara
    Paladins spamhealed tanks in vanilla, bc & wotlk. Supreme and great for tankhealing, thats about it. If the fights demanded movement and/or tankhealing wasnt THAT big of a deal, the suffered.

    There used to be alot of spike dmg so thats why paladins would just spamheal all the time so they wouldnt miss out when huge random dmg hit the tank. It was better to just heal, heal, heal.

  5. #5
    You are doing it wrong if you base your opinion about X healer on HPS numbers.
    Your job as holy pala is mainly 'do not let your tank die'... and use Pally Power properly.

  6. #6
    Holy pallys were fine but there was a specific playstyle. Stack int/spellpower, stack crit, and spam like a demon.

    I used to downrank flash of light a lot and use it for spamming. Mana returns from crits were good. Chain potting and spamming downranked flash of lights, I could single heal tanks where many guilds were assigning off-healers.

    You want one holy pally (at most two), bring a ret pally to keep judgements up and don't feel bad running a prot off-tank.

    We normally had at least 3-4 pallys, one was a tank, one was ret, a holy and a shockadin (the pally tank REALLY wanted sanc aura).

  7. #7
    How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression, with some consideration for melee vs ranged. It is literally a choice between the extra blessing and an additional dps from what I can see. And only two of these fights are taking enough time for it to seem to matter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    Was starting to wonder how this guy would do in 25s because his Gruul/Mag numbers were always pretty low but even with full t4 bis he's our worst healer on every TK and SSC fight by a huge margin. We run with six heals, a mix of 2 shaman and hpriests, one resto druid and the paladin. Even if all he has to do is spam holy light on the tanks, shouldn't he be pulling more than 400-500 hps at this point? Or are the other healers "sniping" his heals? Don't want to lose him because of the blessings but also seems like kind of a wasted spot. fwiw they always parse high in Kara
    Holy paladins have no aoe healing, they're pure tank healers and very mana efficient. They aren't bad, they just fill a certain role and aren't there to top meters, it really depends on the fight. 500 can be pretty low on something like void reaver. Our weekday group had 3 holy paladins and the lowest hps on void reaver was double that, and the top was almost triple. Like I said though, it depends on the fight. On some of them 500 hps is fine, on others it's low. If they're just tank healing and the tank isn't dying then it doesn't matter how much they're doing though.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression, with some consideration for melee vs ranged. It is literally a choice between the extra blessing and an additional dps from what I can see. And only two of these fights are taking enough time for it to seem to matter.
    You don't measure healers in raw output, that's irrelevant. You assign your healers (six is heavy btw, drop a raid healer), and if the targets the healer is assigned to don't die, then you're golden.

    If you put a pally on a tank and your tank dies, then you look at output vs how your tank plays. If you put a pally on a tank and he's overhealing significantly, look at who else is wasting heals on the tank they're not assigned.

  10. #10
    Epic! Uoyredrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression, with some consideration for melee vs ranged. It is literally a choice between the extra blessing and an additional dps from what I can see. And only two of these fights are taking enough time for it to seem to matter.
    The point of healing is to keep people alive. If people aren't dying, then HPS doesn't matter. The boss has a measurable amount of health so DPS is an entirely different metric. The job of healers is just to make sure that you aren't hugging the floor. If you're alive, their mission is accomplished.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    The point of healing is to keep people alive. If people aren't dying, then HPS doesn't matter. The boss has a measurable amount of health so DPS is an entirely different metric. The job of healers is just to make sure that you aren't hugging the floor. If you're alive, their mission is accomplished.
    That's exactly what I'm saying though; no one is dying (not very often anyway and it's usually their own fault) and we have a low-output healer. Ergo, we don't need this low healing raider when our other healers are obviously sufficient and 3/4 of his healing is overheal. He's basically just occassionally hitting the tank with a 2k flash when the tank is nowhere near death.

  12. #12
    cut him and have one of your hpriests/rshams tank heal. and then i imagine youll make a new thread for them.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying though; no one is dying (not very often anyway and it's usually their own fault) and we have a low-output healer. Ergo, we don't need this low healing raider when our other healers are obviously sufficient and 3/4 of his healing is overheal. He's basically just occassionally hitting the tank with a 2k flash when the tank is nowhere near death.
    While that's fair enough, I would also look at whether or not other healers are healing their assignments or if someone is sniping his heals on the tank. And I would agree that it's fine to cut a healer since you have 6, having him go ret if you don't have one could be a better choice. But without seeing actual logs all of this is just speculation anyway.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression, with some consideration for melee vs ranged. It is literally a choice between the extra blessing and an additional dps from what I can see. And only two of these fights are taking enough time for it to seem to matter.
    the fact you're asking this question speaks volumes, it's very clear you don't understand how the game works on a level where you would understand the answer to this question properly, suffice to say people in this thread have said why this paladin is 'low' in your eyes, and explained why it's not a bad thing, this is a 'you' issue and something you need to sort out yourself.

  15. #15
    Well, if all he does it tank healing, and the others aoe heal the raid, they would ofc have higher HPS. Compare him to other holy palas on warcraftlogs.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    Don't want to lose him because of the blessings
    This is a major part of the equation. I main holy paladin and played holy paladin exclusively in tbc and wrath. If your tank is taking crazy spike damage, biggest example being when the boss is parry hasted, your paladin would be crazy to do anything but spam heal and will probably result in him being lower on the meters, but if your tank is taking fairly low or consistent damage and the paladin can raid heal more, it’ll certainly be closer to the other healers for hps.

    Also, this changes in a very large way in wrath thanks to beacon of light. You go from being a purely tank healer most of the time to always being a road healer since your beacon is doing all the tank work for you.

    If you bench the paladin, you’re other healers will certainly feel it and your tanks will probably die a little more often. You would end up putting a priest on tank healing and their hps would suffer a little as well.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Well, if all he does it tank healing, and the others aoe heal the raid, they would ofc have higher HPS. Compare him to other holy palas on warcraftlogs.
    We've done this and of course other holy paladins are parsing better when their teammates are performing worse. You do not 'score' better on logs for overheals. Maybe the better question to ask is "who here uses an hpal in their raid and why?" If the overwhelming response is "buffs", I guess that'd answer my question better than "You don't get holy paladins/healing". I get healing just fine.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    We've done this and of course other holy paladins are parsing better when their teammates are performing worse. You do not 'score' better on logs for overheals. Maybe the better question to ask is "who here uses an hpal in their raid and why?" If the overwhelming response is "buffs", I guess that'd answer my question better than "You don't get holy paladins/healing". I get healing just fine.
    No offense but if you have to ask why HPS isn't a good metric you don't really "get healing" at all. Your original post was asking if holy paladins are just bad - they're not. That's been explained to death. If you want an actual in-depth answer to what your paladin is doing wrong, you need to post logs. If you don't, all we can do is speculate. Saying he does 500 hps and asking if other healers are sniping his heals when we can't see the logs is utterly pointless.

    Your officers are not wrong for wanting to keep the 3rd blessing, and like I said ret is a plenty viable option when you already have 5 other healers. But dropping a holy paladin hurts on fights when you need reliable tank healing because they're so much more mana efficient at it than anyone else.

  19. #19
    Without logs it's hard to prove but it sounds like your Holy Paladin is just doing poorly.

    As a Holy Paladin I'm always top 3 and last night in SSC I was out-performing or pulling my weight against our Druid and Priests who are better geared than I am.

    Paladins suffer a lot on AoE fights but we have a lot of potential if your Paladin moves out the "Tank Healer" role and realises they're a "Spot Healer" .

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression, with some consideration for melee vs ranged. It is literally a choice between the extra blessing and an additional dps from what I can see. And only two of these fights are taking enough time for it to seem to matter.
    A holy paladin is extremely mana efficient especially on t5+, what this means is that he isn't snipping heals. He's a flash heal bot using it on the tank with 100% uptime or holy light on damage spikes.

    No other healer can do this besides the druid, but the druid heals are mostly hots. Hots will heal for less on average on the tank but gives him the chance to raid heal too. Don't underestimate how good hpala healing on the tank is. Healing parses mean nothing on this scenario. Just don't bring more than one

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