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  1. #141
    I dont get the point of the thread, what FOMO there is in shadowlands? we have the +15 seasonal mounts and thats it? the mage tower will come back again and its not FOMO at all, or all the timewalking mounts would also be FOMO.

    Also the game has FOMO things since vanilla so why is people caring now?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Except, as I'm sure I've mentioned, it doesn't make it bad for EVERYONE. Some people like to have a set time to complete a certain task, it gives them impetus to get that thing done before the time runs out instead of throwing it on the big list of stuff that tends to accumulate in games like WoW.

    What you're doing is saying that because some people are alcoholics then putting alcohol in drinks must be bad for EVERYONE. That isn't true, and you can't say that every bar and brewery in the country is only trying to exploit alcoholics. Now I'm sorry you have some sort of gaming disorder and I'm not trying to point the finger at you for having a negative psychological trait, but I don't think it necessarily makes sense that developers stop using game mechanics that people may find enjoyable, especially not in this case where the "FOMO" mechanic is Timewalking and if you do miss out this time around it will come back before too long.
    I don't have a FOMO problem. I have a problem with my gameplay being throttled and content being held away from me just so that Blizzard can prey on those people. WoW has a massive amount of content, and unlike most successful similar games where I can just go play that content freely and with good reason, WoW deprecates it constantly in order to be predatory on other people.

    Do you know what "impetus to get that thing done before time runs out" is? It's called FOMO.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2021-09-21 at 12:10 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    How many MMOs let you do old dungeons for current rewards other then currency?
    ..."Except for the thing they reward that I personally don't care about"

    Omegalawl

  4. #144
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    So basically like any crummy mobile game company out there.

    You don't need content or a quality game if you can just use human nature against your customers.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    You'll find that this is a constant throughout the human species, regardless of whether it's business, politics, or interpersonal conflict. Apologists always point the finger at people rather than systems, and the people benefitting from that happily lean into it. It's no coincidence that publishers have started blaming gamers for their own shitty business practices. Victim blaming is a very effective strategy for the rich and powerful.
    Summed up best by LBJ in a quote about picking pockets that I probably shouldn't post here.

  6. #146
    It's only fomo if they remove the mage tower again after shadowlands. But, they have said nothing of the sort. Timewalking synchs you down in level, so the content will remain relevant and cycles about just as other timewalking. I don't think it's going away.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Your comparison doesn't work. If anything, your choice of example undermines your entire argument.

    Breweries do not attempt to make their products addictive, nor do their intentionally target alcoholics. In fact, it is explicitly illegal for them to add harmful addictive substances to their products. The production of alcoholic drinks is, in fact, highly regulated and under constant scrutiny. So much so that an entire market of low-alcohol and alcohol-free drinks is booming. The result is an industry that is focused on the quality and identity of their product rather than its addictive properties.

    Meanwhile, the gaming industry has introduced myriads of gambling mechanics into games with the intentional goal of capitalizing on addiction. As any game developer will tell you, game design has always been about creating short game loops that are addictive to your brain. As competition between game publishers has grown, so has their tendency to force more and more design decisions that are about the intentional creation of addiction. As a result, game concepts that are not conducive to the introduction of loot boxes, microtransactions, time-limited offers, FOMO, etc., are now routinely canned by big publishers, while otherwise good design is sabotaged by these things. If you think differently, you are in denial about the state of the industry, and any developer not licking the boots of their publisher will tell you that.

    WoW vanilla was made in a time when gambling mechanics were neither omnipresent in AAA game design, nor commercialized to the extent that they are now. Blizzard, as always, has been lagging behind the industry in introducing these things, but the influence of it on design decisions during the past decade is there and visible in the systems that have been introduced to WoW, even if it's nowhere near as blatant as in other MMO's. You are, again, in denial if you think that Blizzard wants to just "create a fun game", or if you think that psychology isn't part of modern game design and game design courses.

    I, in fact, have several friends who are game designers and who have privately spoken out in disgust of what they're told and being taught about exploiting addiction and players psychology. Yet in spite of their very negative opinion of what they're taught and made to do, there's nothing they can do against it because ultimately it requires government intervention through regulation. They all know and recognize this, just as they are all very aware of the negative pressure gambling and seasonal FOMO have on the quality of their designs. Current design decisions are driven by shareholders who demand psychologically addictive games, not game designers who want to make a fun game.



    I have not compared holidays and timewalking to casinos. Don't put words in my mouth. What I did compare to casinos, is Blizzard's business philosophy (and that of the industry at large), and how that influences design practices. There is a difference there.

    What is obvious from a design point of view, is that holidays and timewalking, while not bad by themselves in any shape or form, are rationed in such a way that players who want to finish that content and reap its rewards need to remain subscribed for a very long time to have a shot at it. While time-limited content isn't inherently predatory, it becomes predatory when there's a financial incentive, such as subscriptions, to capitalize on it by stretching the time-to-completion out as long as possible regardless of whether it makes good game design or not .. preferably to the point where it takes multiple rounds of the content being available.

    Again, the discussion is not about whether or not companies, Blizzard included, are doing this (because they are, without a shadow of a doubt), but about what extent of it is reasonable and permissible. The one thing that the time and reward structure of holidays and timewalking points out, is that Blizzard has no qualms at all about exploiting player psychology. They are, if anything, small scale examples of the kind of thinking that WoW's primary gameplay systems are rife with.

    The crux of the matter is this: because WoW runs on subscriptions, Blizzard has a perverse incentive to control the pacing of rewards (this is what weekly chests, individual loot, and timed mission boards are all about, regardless of what the marketing department says), and an equally perverse incentive to not give players the ability to hasten loot procurement unless they pay a sum of money that is equal to or greater than what they would gain from that player's subscription (this is what tokens and BOE items are really about). It is, in essence, a lighter version of what EA does with setting the in-game prices of rewards at such extremes that players have no choice but to spend real currency instead if they don't want to psychologically torture themselves.

    Yes, from their own perspective Blizzard has done a reasonable job of not (yet) falling into the extremes that other online games have, but the gradually accelerating drive towards it has been undeniably present in WoW's last few expansions, and the negative pressure of it on WoW game design is evident. Blizzard no longer designs content for the sake of content, but only as the meat on a skeleton of an abusive, predatory design philosophy of micromanaging player psychology to stretch reward acquisition out over the longest possible time. This approach minimizes content creation, maximizes return-on-investment, and also explains why WoW's systems and narratives are a pile of aborted garbage that never carry through to the next expansion .. or the next patch as of late.

    I get that you love using words like "abusing psychology" and painting things in the worst possible terms, but boil it down and what you're saying is "Blizzard has designed a game that people enjoy playing and paced it so they remain subscribed for extended periods." They do this because it is what players want, people like having different things to do, they like having a reason to log on and play with friends every day for weeks or months. There is controversy over how content should be paced - back in Vanilla it was like a second job where the amount of grinding, timegating and punishing RNG ("psychologically abusive mechanics" as you'd call them, often compared to a Skinner box back in the day) meant it was unfeasible for a player to compete everything. In fact the design at that time, whether by accident or design, encouraged very unhealthy behaviour and I think WoW even had a body count. That's why today the grinding doesn't need you to play for so long each day but the rewards are rationed so the content can't be finished too soon. WoD tried to do away with this and the response was not positive.

    Is all of this abusive, predatory, and disrespectful of players' emotional relationship to the franchise? You bet it is! Without industry regulation, the situation is only going to get worse.
    What sort of regulation do you want, restrictions on how long you can play daily like China has introduced? An end to all forms of RNG so you only have to complete a raid once and you get all the loot? Get rid of levels and improvements through gear altogether as increasing player power is pleasing and can be classed as "psychologically abusive?" How about handing all rewards introduced in each patch to players without them having to attempt the content so no-one has to fear missing out?

    Your assumptions are making an ass out of you. It is sad that the only defense you have against the factual reality of the gaming industry, is the delusional coping strategy of convincing yourself that its critics must suffer from a disorder.
    I was assuming that your complaints came from your experiencing, though it does seem likely you're pulling it all out of your ass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I don't have a FOMO problem. I have a problem with my gameplay being throttled and content being held away from me just so that Blizzard can prey on those people. WoW has a massive amount of content, and unlike most successful similar games where I can just go play that content freely and with good reason, WoW deprecates it constantly in order to be predatory on other people.

    Do you know what "impetus to get that thing done before time runs out" is? It's called FOMO.
    If you follow the discussion I've been having people are making a distinction between a positive and negative reaction to the way the game is designed. The ones criticising FOMO are saying it is causing a negative feeling in them because they can't do everything they want. I'm pointing out that the same mechanics can also cause a positive motivation and make people feel good when they complete things in time. Call them both FOMO if you want but then you will be saying that FOMO isn't necessarily a bad thing.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If you follow the discussion I've been having people are making a distinction between a positive and negative reaction to the way the game is designed. The ones criticising FOMO are saying it is causing a negative feeling in them because they can't do everything they want. I'm pointing out that the same mechanics can also cause a positive motivation and make people feel good when they complete things in time. Call them both FOMO if you want but then you will be saying that FOMO isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    If you want to define "Avoiding a negative emotion" as a "Positive emotion", sure. But at that point you are trying to define yourself into being correct through cute little definition games rather than engaging in anything approaching an honest conversation.

    The bottom line is that nobody is feeling a genuinely greater sense of accomplishment by Blizzard rapidly deprecating old content. The idea that someone feels a greater sense of accomplishment because the previous patch content was trashed four months after it came out and everything they did was overwritten by the new patch on day one is deranged. It's laughable on its face, and the idea that this is your great defense is absurd.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you want to define "Avoiding a negative emotion" as a "Positive emotion", sure. But at that point you are trying to define yourself into being correct through cute little definition games rather than engaging in anything approaching an honest conversation.

    The bottom line is that nobody is feeling a genuinely greater sense of accomplishment by Blizzard rapidly deprecating old content. The idea that someone feels a greater sense of accomplishment because the previous patch content was trashed four months after it came out and everything they did was overwritten by the new patch on day one is deranged. It's laughable on its face, and the idea that this is your great defense is absurd.
    I think you understand what I was saying and as you can only attack me by saying it's deranged, laughable and absurd shows there is no point talking with you any more. Just try to remember that different people like different things and just because you're playing a game that makes you miserable doesn't mean everyone feels the same way.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Oh sure, in the same way that drug dealers are just "providing a product that people enjoy and cut it so that they can keep enjoying it for extended times".

    You are arguing in bad faith, as evidenced by your poor euphemisms and semantic rephrasing to defend the indefensible.
    Didn't we already establish that bars and brewers don't all go out of their way to create alcoholics and most just want to sell things people enjoy?

    Ah yes, WOD .. the expansion that introduced the "garrison mission" lootbox system at the cost of traditional content. What a great example of Blizzard doing the right thing. /s
    WoD also did away with mechanics in the core game that encouraged people to stay subbed for extended periods, "psychologically abusive" mechanics as you would call them. It didn't go down well because people want a reason to log in for extended periods.

    Nothing of the sort. Your attempt to frame industry regulation as regulating gameplay is disingenuous and silly.

    The only thing that needs to happen is regulation of the financial business models that the gaming industry is allowed to use. An end to paid lootboxes, non-refundable game tokens, preorder exclusives, and pay-to-win schemes, would be enough to swing the pendulum back to good design instead of scummy business.
    How would any of that affect Blizz putting in content like Holidays, Timewalking and the Mage Tower? How would it protect people from "psychologically abusive" features like RNG loot or FOMO?

    I see that it hasn't occurred to you that some people care for loved ones who are vulnerable to predatory exploitation.
    If a friend of mine has an issue I help them with that issue. I wouldn't, for example, expect alcohol to be banned and pubs shut down to help a friend with a drink problem.

    You sound like that VP from EA, who didn't understand that comparing lootboxes to Kinder Eggs was an indictment of Kinder Eggs, not a defense of lootboxes.
    What is your problem with Kinder Eggs?

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What I want is to be able to play that content at a reasonably appropriate difficulty level with substantive rewards, and Blizzard lets me do that on a schedule for no reason when the content could simply be available that way all the time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    When Blizzard is making the game *worse* in order to prey on fomo, that effects me whether I give into it or not. It’s not like I can ignore the time gating, rapid deprecation of content, or constant times events. It’s not like I can close my eyes and magically the game doesn’t have those design principles.
    Worse is subjective. But if you have such an issue with what they are doing why bother supporting them with monthly payments?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Ah, so you are finally getting it. You just have to make that jump into understanding that what you present as a mere exaggeration is actual reality.

    Non-predatory businesses don't exist. They're called nonprofit organizations.



    Correct, all of this is predatory. The question is not whether business is predatory, but rather what kind of predatory practices are healthy and which are not. The critical logic error that you're making here is that special deals, time-limited sales, etc., are necessary to generate revenue and profit. They're not. The only "necessary" part about them is businesses need to keep up with what everyone else is doing if they want to stay in business.

    What you are listening though is not "business". It's an arms race in psychological warfare on consumers. The only reason it happens is because competing businesses try to recreate a level playing field each time a competitor creates an advantage for itself. Whenever a corporation employs a successful new form of psychological manipulation of its customers, every other corporation is forced to follow or face significant market and revenue loss. In economics, this is called the principle of minimum differentiation, or Hotelling's law.

    Revenue generation doesn't happen because of this arms race, but in spite of it. Outlawing psychological tricks forces corporations to focus on the quality of their product to gain a competitive edge, rather than on an arms race that ultimately benefits no one. Unregulated markets exert downward pressure on product quality at increased cost to the consumer. The only way to counteract that is by regulating the business practices and minimum quality levels.

    The gaming business is largely unregulated, hence the explosion of predatory tactics and the plummeting quality of AAA games in the recent decade. It's all related.
    I understand all of that. I just don't give a shit about it. I consume what I want when I want. Thus goes for all industries. If they don't have what I want at the time I want to consume I find something different or leave. I just don't spend any time worrying about this since it's everywhere, has been since the dawn of man, hell the dawn of life. The weak have always been preyed upon.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    The weak have always been preyed upon.
    Edgelord alert!
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  13. #153
    [QUOTE=kamuimac;53389009]there is definete FOMO atm with people being forced to sub now to gear their chars so they can do mage tower once it is releaed in 3-4months because onl ytiem they can do it wil lbe once every half of year.

    its disgusting predatory tactics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Im fairly certain they stated in the reveal that item levels will be scaled down/up. So completion of the mage tower will be based purely on skill level.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Edgelord alert!
    Not really. Just stating the obvious. Nothing is really going to ever change. You really think you can get the billions of underprivileged and taken advantage of to rise up and stop what's going on? Hell, you can't even get enough people to boycott something to make a statement on a scale worth noticing.

    Take the current crap going on with Blizzard. A certain forum that has its head so far up its ass trying to out woke each other, constantly posting fuck ABK in any thread created about every ABK game. They are being drowned out by those who are excited about D2R. For every person being taken advantage of there are 10 right behind that don't notice or care.

    So sure call me an edge lord of you must. But for as much as thing have gotten better throughout the years, they are far worse in many other areas. It's not really going to change. It's nature. Just a more evolved nuanced form of it.

  15. #155
    I find it more telling that FOMO was never an issue to most people until it became about something they care about rather than just existing. FOMO, or rather, time sensitive cosmetics and gear, has existed in the game since launch. We still have achievements and mounts as time sensitive rewards, but apparently no one cared enough to make a post on mmo-c about it until now. It comes off as more of an issue of personal greed of something that you want vs an actual problem with the system existing.

    That stated, I have no problem with time sensitive rewards. I never played vanilla, but I still think it’s awesome seeing the rare Scarab Lord or the black Qiraji mount. I don’t mind busting out my Cloudsong Glaive or my original Rhok’delar from time to time. I’m happy I got my Undying title and a little upset I never got Immortal; but, I’m not raging on forums about it or talking about how Blizzard removed them simply to create FOMO.
    That said, I think it’s nice to have things others can’t get and it does add a sense of exclusivity. The fact people can get so upset about not being able to get it proves that if you did get it you should be proud of having done it.

  16. #156
    [QUOTE=Roship;53393601]
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    there is definete FOMO atm with people being forced to sub now to gear their chars so they can do mage tower once it is releaed in 3-4months because onl ytiem they can do it wil lbe once every half of year.

    its disgusting predatory tactics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Im fairly certain they stated in the reveal that item levels will be scaled down/up. So completion of the mage tower will be based purely on skill level.
    It's also to easily gear up still. So hus concern is really a non issue. Sure it makes it easier, but I remember the original MT, my undefeated DH had no problems, but my properly geared Paladin had trouble. It's more about skill, but yes gear can make up for some things.

  17. #157
    Oddly enough, I'm still unsubbed. No FOMO.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I find it more telling that FOMO was never an issue to most people until it became about something they care about rather than just existing. FOMO, or rather, time sensitive cosmetics and gear, has existed in the game since launch. We still have achievements and mounts as time sensitive rewards, but apparently no one cared enough to make a post on mmo-c about it until now. It comes off as more of an issue of personal greed of something that you want vs an actual problem with the system existing.

    That stated, I have no problem with time sensitive rewards. I never played vanilla, but I still think it’s awesome seeing the rare Scarab Lord or the black Qiraji mount. I don’t mind busting out my Cloudsong Glaive or my original Rhok’delar from time to time. I’m happy I got my Undying title and a little upset I never got Immortal; but, I’m not raging on forums about it or talking about how Blizzard removed them simply to create FOMO.
    That said, I think it’s nice to have things others can’t get and it does add a sense of exclusivity. The fact people can get so upset about not being able to get it proves that if you did get it you should be proud of having done it.
    Yup. I'm sure some that are against it are mad they never got their CM skins, but had no problem with timed events before or in other games or areas of life. The ones upset are the same types that bring in a flyer that's weeks old to a store demanding they get that sale price.

    So what? You missed out on something. It's not the end if the world. Just gotta keep on trucking. I mean I really wanted the CM gear and weapons. I loath timed dungeon runs. I just went oh well, not for me, and moved on. I think part of the problem is people's priorities are in the wrong place too. I've always believed this about some gamers. Getting as emotional as the do over a game as of it were a life or death situation. Like, calm your tits man, it's just a game.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Not really. Just stating the obvious. Nothing is really going to ever change. You really think you can get the billions of underprivileged and taken advantage of to rise up and stop what's going on? Hell, you can't even get enough people to boycott something to make a statement on a scale worth noticing.

    Take the current crap going on with Blizzard. A certain forum that has its head so far up its ass trying to out woke each other, constantly posting fuck ABK in any thread created about every ABK game. They are being drowned out by those who are excited about D2R. For every person being taken advantage of there are 10 right behind that don't notice or care.

    So sure call me an edge lord of you must. But for as much as thing have gotten better throughout the years, they are far worse in many other areas. It's not really going to change. It's nature. Just a more evolved nuanced form of it.
    But yet, things are changing. People have been removed. New people have been moved into those vacancies (one of which has been discussed about having diversity and equality in games and the workplace). In game references are being changed, and potentially never going to come back.
    Hopefully, this has also given others some courage to step forward when/if it happens in other companies (because it’s probably safe to say it’s not just limited to Blizzard). Change can happen with a bang all at once, or it can be so small you hardly realize anything’s changed until it has.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    But yet, things are changing. People have been removed. New people have been moved into those vacancies (one of which has been discussed about having diversity and equality in games and the workplace). In game references are being changed, and potentially never going to come back.
    Hopefully, this has also given others some courage to step forward when/if it happens in other companies (because it’s probably safe to say it’s not just limited to Blizzard). Change can happen with a bang all at once, or it can be so small you hardly realize anything’s changed until it has.
    And a new way to take advantage will prop up. Not to mention this type of behavior is prominent within the entire industry. You'll have a hard time finding a game dev where a woman hasn't been sexually assaulted, or had her gender used against her in some way to have ideas stolen or not be promoted.

    But yes trying to clean up Blizzards ranks of abusers is a good thing, but overall it's a drop in an ocean of problems in the world.

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