M+ needs back Titanforging

[shoc]

Blizzard should just make two different servers. Clearly there are irreconcilable odds between what hardcore players want and the game direction.

So, they should add Mythic servers. It's hardcore and has all the quality of life deterioration that hardcore players apparently want.

1. Only Heroic/Mythic difficulty Dungeons and Raids. No LFG/LFR or Normal.
2. No Paid Boosts.
4. Old school gold cap of 214,748g.
5. No pity-loot Tokens.
6. Personal loot RNG chance is half what it is now.
7. You get three raid lockouts per character per week.

We could come up with dozens and dozens more masochistic game design decisions. Like, iLevel deterioration over time, or 10 minute death timers that make you solve a calculus problem to rez early.

[Domanic]

This is why bad players shouldn't get access to the best gear, Doing a 15 should just give you 239 from your vault. 18's 246. 20's 252.

When casuals get a taste of the best gear, they want to bring along all of their terrible lottery systems that no one good or intelligent wants.

[Eazy]

And you are. YOu are able to get a full mythic set. LFR players would be lucky to get one piece. Reward is given toards effort.

Nope. It's welfare casino.
LFR player getting mythic ilvl item isn't fair at all.

Neither have you, except wnat to lord your superiority over everyone else.

If using basic knowledge and saying that reward should be equal to effort means that I am superior, then yeah.

You only want you to have a voice since oyu are trying to be sole dictator over how the game should be.

Because that's just fair and justice.

But they are putting in the effort. Running LFR week after week after week for a very low shot at top gear is putting enough effort to expect one piece of higher reward.

Not really. It's the same effort again and again, while expecting better reward.
I am not saying that doing LFR doesn't require ANY EFFORT at all, but it requires less than normal, such as normal requires less than heroic etc.
If a person do LFR a few weeks in a row and gets the best possible gear from that content, then they should try normal/heroic.
Nothing actually stops them from doing so.
If someone don't want to do normal raids, they don't deserve normal ilvl gear. Simple.

[Raelbo]

<big snip>
I think that guy is out of touch. Totally clueless and uneducated.

I can't be bothered trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand how to construct an argument, and whose answers simply repeat what has already be rebutted.

[kamuimac]

He's 100% trolling or too obtuse to realize what are we talking about.

you are not talking about anything

you are just bashing people (to feel better about yourself ) that are worse then you not relaise that in eyes of better players then you there is 0 difference between someone runing just lfr and you.

its typical in game though for people in mid-core brakcet - supperiority complex over anyone below after puting ungodly amount of hours into game while not realising that in eyes of good players (who put 1/2 or 1/4 the time you put inot game to be much higher then you ) you are equaly bad at this game.

and you think you know how reward struture in game should be ? thats whats hillarius here

let me tell you a secret - actually good players never cared about TF - because they were getting mythic raid gear on week 2-3 of each patch - and were geared by the end of first month.

its the midcore who were to bad to raid mythic untill like month 3 of patch who spammed m+ for tF - because thats the only way they could overgear bosses and get anywhere.

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That has to be the most stupid argument i've ever read in entire mmo history... "luck should decide who owns the meters in spite of there being better skilled players"... Holy shit, no...
And you completely ignore that TF invalidates heroic raiding and thats why it was removed and rightfully so and it will never return, thankfully so

And people handle it just fine, i think you've created that illusion in your head because the copium is strong in you.

which people ? because so far 80-90 % players left retail wow

so again which people handle it just fine ?

[Eazy]

you are not talking about anything

you are just bashing people (to feel better about yourself ) that are worse then you not relaise that in eyes of better players then you there is 0 difference between someone runing just lfr and you.

its typical in game though for people in mid-core brakcet - supperiority complex over anyone below after puting ungodly amount of hours into game while not realising that in eyes of good players (who put 1/2 or 1/4 the time you put inot game to be much higher then you ) you are equaly bad at this game.

and you think you know how reward struture in game should be ? thats whats hillarius here

I just think that the reward should be appropriate to the effort. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don't even know how basic maths works. You're totally clueless.
All your ridiculous assumptions about me are just... wrong. Typical ad hominem arguments used by someone who lack proper arguments. You are just simply uneducated, without any experience and too obtuse to write about such a thing.
Keep living in your imaginary world where your assumptions are considered as facts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lathspell]

I just think that the reward should be appropriate to the effort. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don't even know how basic maths works. You're totally clueless.
All your ridiculous assumptions about me are just... wrong. Typical ad hominem arguments used by someone who lack proper arguments. You are just simply uneducated, without any experience and too obtuse to write about such a thing.
Keep living in your imaginary world where your assumptions are considered as facts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Would you be happy if max reward for m+ vault gear would go up to +25 or something? Surely that would be fair because it takes much more effort to clear +25 than +15 (which is pretty easy) so it would be fair to reward it more.

Why is it fair that doing one +15 every week gives you full 252 eventually, even though it's very easy to clear a 15. It's the same thing as LFR or something rewarding the same but just slower.

[Eazy]

Would you be happy if max reward for m+ vault gear would go up to +25 or something? Surely that would be fair because it takes much more effort to clear +25 than +15 (which is pretty easy) so it would be fair to reward it more.

Yes. That would be fair, because clearing +25 takes more effort than +15.

But keep in mind I'd rather see the same proportions as raiding for the maximum reward, for example(it's just an example, no real numbers, just to explain what I meant by having proportions in highest reward drop):
If 5% of people who do M+ have >2.7k r.io(~337,5 rating for each dungeon) and 5% of the people do mythic raiding, then the 252 ilvl items should be dropping for people who actually are doing M+ dungeons with ~337,5 rating(which is like ~27 M+).

Why is it fair that doing one +15 every week gives you full 252 eventually, even though it's very easy to clear a 15. It's the same thing as LFR or something rewarding the same but just slower.

I get your point and I totally agree, but +15 requires more effort than LFR.

Although it's hard to compare M+ and raiding in terms of difficulty, that's not the point of the discussion. TF/WF would make impact on both of them.

[tomten]

Would you be happy if max reward for m+ vault gear would go up to +25 or something? Surely that would be fair because it takes much more effort to clear +25 than +15 (which is pretty easy) so it would be fair to reward it more.

Why is it fair that doing one +15 every week gives you full 252 eventually, even though it's very easy to clear a 15. It's the same thing as LFR or something rewarding the same but just slower.

Yes and I also think it's healthy overall to keep such reward incentives up.
Hell, keep the gear in brackets of 5 all the way up to +30 for all I care, just dont introduce back some lottery cancer system

[Osmeric]

TF was a carry mechanism. It enabled extra loot to drop that could be traded down to lesser players. As such, it went against the hardcore puritan ideal that no one should get gear they don't deserve. This ideal is utter poison in an MMO, but the devs are fixated on it.

[Kaver]

TF was a carry mechanism. It enabled extra loot to drop that could be traded down to lesser players. As such, it went against the hardcore puritan ideal that no one should get gear they don't deserve. This ideal is utter poison in an MMO, but the devs are fixated on it.

For most mythic players it’s not about that. We just didn’t like the extreme RNG element of TF. If we could get a loot system more like what they have in FF14 then that would be perfectly fine.

The idea that most Mythic players don’t want casual players to get gear is a myth. Sure there are a few exception with special snowflakes but they are a minority. Most of us are perfectly fine with everyone having the possibility to get good gear.

The point is that it’s totally possible to make a gear system which is rewarding for everyone WITHOUT basing it on extreme randomness. Again they have this in FF14.

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which people ? because so far 80-90 % players left retail wow

Well I don’t believe that the removal of TF was the sole reason for most of those people leaving.

[Osmeric]

The idea that most Mythic players don’t want casual players to get gear is a myth.

It's developers who are fixated on the idea. If not even mythic players are onboard with the idea then it's even more absurd that the devs are.

[Sin of Pride]

It's developers who are fixated on the idea. If not even mythic players are onboard with the idea then it's even more absurd that the devs are.

I think there needs to be some clarification here... What level gear for example? I think most players understand that gear strength should reflect the difficulty of the content. It tends to only be people who play for eighty hours a week only doing lfr who scream "we should get mythic raid gear"

[Kaver]

It's developers who are fixated on the idea. If not even mythic players are onboard with the idea then it's even more absurd that the devs are.

Most of what the devs have done for the last few years are absurd.

In BFA we asked for the game to have less RNG. This included the removal of TF. Blizzard completely misunderstood this and started by replacing it with corruption which was even more RNG than TF ever was.

Most of us never asked Blizzard to reduce drop rates or make gear extremely exclusive. We just wanted them to remove the extreme randomness. Blizzard just always misunderstand what we are asking for.

We want a gear system that’s rewarding for everyone WITHOUT extreme levels of randomness. Is that too much to ask for…

If FF14 can make it then why cant WoW… Just copy the damn thing and be done with it ffs.

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I think there needs to be some clarification here... What level gear for example? I think most players understand that gear strength should reflect the difficulty of the content. It tends to only be people who play for eighty hours a week only doing lfr who scream "we should get mythic raid gear"

Nah most players in the mythic raiding community don’t care if casual get good gear. It doesn’t really matter to us. If some gear can make other players happy then just let them. We simply don’t want TF because of the randomness.

[Sin of Pride]

Most of what the devs have done for the last few years are absurd.

In BFA we asked for the game to have less RNG. This included the removal of TF. Blizzard completely misunderstood this and started by replacing it with corruption which was even more RNG than TF ever was.

Most of us never asked Blizzard to reduce drop rates or make gear extremely exclusive. We just wanted them to remove the extreme randomness. Blizzard just always misunderstand what we are asking for.

We want a gear system that’s rewarding for everyone WITHOUT extreme levels of randomness. Is that too much to ask for…

If FF14 can make it then why cant WoW… Just copy the damn thing and be done with it ffs.

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Nah most players in the mythic raiding community don’t care if casual get good gear. It doesn’t really matter to us. If some gear can make other players happy then just let them. We simply don’t want TF because of the randomness.

Does it make them happy? If you over gear someone all you accomplish is to push them out of content designed for them and pushing them into a bracket of play they are completely unprepared for that has to lead to frustration and anger doesn't it?

It is a lot like handing 1500 rated players 250 gear. All it does is make new players miserable as they hit a fall of players they can't really out play from gear difference alone.

[Kaver]

Does it make them happy? If you over gear someone all you accomplish is to push them out of content designed for them and pushing them into a bracket of play they are completely unprepared for that has to lead to frustration and anger doesn't it?

It is a lot like handing 1500 rated players 250 gear. All it does is make new players miserable as they hit a fall of players they can't really out play from gear difference alone.

To be honest I don’t really care.

My point is simply that most of the mythic raiders that advocated for the removal of TF did it purely because of the extreme randomness of the system. I really don’t care if a LFR player get 252 gear. All I care about is having a good level of control over my own gear without having to rely on extreme randomness.

[Utrrabbit]

Any person who wants titan/warforging returned is fundementally wrong. It was the single most toxic thing they have ever introduced.



/end thread.

[Lathspell]

It's hard to understand why people are talking about who "deserves" what ilvl loot. I wish people would see that if everyone had a meaningful way of progressing their character, regardless of skill level, the game would benefit. Some people just don't enjoy harder content and were capped at 200ilvl in 9.0 pretty much. This makes them lose all reason to play as they can't progress without pushing into harder content that they don't like.

It's the same for PVP imo. Having rating capped ilvl:s makes people get punished for both lack of skill and lack of gear. More players in the game is better for all players.

I don't even buy the "oh but then high ilvl will mean nothing and crappy players will be in my keys/raids" that is what m+ rating and Raider.io is for. If you take someone who has 250 ilvl but has shitty RIO/low amount of timed keys/no repeat clears of bosses, you can't expect them to be good even now as you can get boosted very easily just using your credit card. MMO:s are about progressing your character and always having that carrot to chase. If there is no carrot there is no chaser either.

[Deneios]

Bring back justice and valor vendors with weekly cap on valor. Then if you are a lfr player you can buy one piece of non bis item that is mythic quality once a month when raiders and pushers get more valor and bis gear from their content.

[Mr Crix]

Bring back justice and valor vendors with weekly cap on valor. Then if you are a lfr player you can buy one piece of non bis item that is mythic quality once a month when raiders and pushers get more valor and bis gear from their content.

Why?

This seems like gotcha game bullshit that just fucks with early level groups as the minimum ilv will ever climb upwards making it harder for new player.

You want better gear? Climb the difficulty ladder.