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  1. #121
    Yeah I agree, I haven't done m+ at all this expansion despite pushing +23s last expansion. There's just no point now though, you don't get gear from them, so there's virtually no reason to waste your time.

    Getting a WF/TF piece was actually pretty fun and exciting when you finally got something you or your group wanted. Now though you zone into the dungeon knowing damn well there is a 0% chance anyone will get anything of value. Makes it feel like it's completely pointless to bother.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This is not true for me at least. I just like to be more in control of the gear I’m getting. I also don’t enjoy the random nature of the weekly vault very much.
    It's a rather common argument. And I am not going to try and tell you what you think will make the game better for you. The problem of course is that human beings really, really suck at predicting what will make us happy. So a lot of players will think that having full control over the gear they get will make them enjoy the game more, but in reality it doesn't. This is why the idea of random loot has persisted for so long (dating back to table top RPGs like DnD).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I mean, you can also turn that argument around since we have also experienced the game without Titanforging. More often than not.
    Did you even read what I was replying to? Because your comment here makes zero sense in that context. I was simply responding to the assertion that people who want TF don't know what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But then you can start discussing if game design should be based on players clearing content because they improve in term of skills or because they out gear the content to an extent where skills become a secondary asset.
    Clearing content is not about skills or gear. It's about skills and gear. Every time you fight a boss, you get a bit closer to being good enough to kill the boss. And every time someone in the group gets a better piece of gear, that boss gets just a little bit easier. So really, raid progression is a combination of the raid improving through repeated attempts, while at the same time the fight is getting steadily easier through gear improvements. At some point these two things intersect and the boss is defeated.

    Now obviously it should go without saying that better players (ie more skilled) will clear content faster, with less attempts, and without needing to acquire as much gear than weaker players. But that does not mean that the less skilled players don't improve over time.

    Simply put, even with TF, the game philosophy is still that you expect players to improve. All that has changed is that gear will continue to improve over time for guilds that do get stuck, for whom the difficulty of the boss is maybe a bit to steep. TF was never about handing out free raid progression to anyone, it was about making raiding more accessible to players with a wider range of skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I mean, gear has always been a way of artificially nerfing bosses in WoW. But titanforging took that to another level.
    By which you mean to a more appropriate level for most guilds....

    Bear in mind that before titanforging, raids would typically get nerfed outright at some point. This was necessary because there were guilds that absolutely got stuck on brick walls. And honestly, nerfing the content via the slow accumulation of WF and TF gear is infinitely preferable to a flat out nerf. Just for a start, a guild that is running the raid every week and killing bosses is earning that gear through persistent effort. Secondly, the way that improvement works tends to be in small increments. Thirdly, nerfs just feel shit. There is very little less satisfying and more demotivating in this game than being so close to defeating a boss you've been working hard at for a few weeks, and then have it literally fall over because it got nerfed by 30%.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    That is one of the biggest lies (by misrepresentation of facts) propagated by the opponents of TF. The real *fact* is that there was simply no way that the rewards obtained by participants in lower content levels could even come close to the rewards obtained by those participating in the higher content levels.

    Sure, committed LFR raiders would have landed up with several pieces of gear equal to normal mode gear, and even possibly a piece or two of heroic mode gear with a very low chance of a mythic piece of gear. But people raiding normal would still have been substantially ahead, with heroic raiders ahead of them and mythic raiders further ahead still. This supposed "problem" you're talking about was entirely imaginary.
    Does TF gear result in gear higher ilvl then the base ilvl reward of the content? _yes or _no? Cause thats my point I never said Steve from LFR is gonna out gear my main.
    This isnt just about lfr champions that are afraid of pushing content and never leave solo q content. Its about the advantage gained everywhere for people that want to be competitive with those around them. This matters in M+ and raids at all levels. Yes, doing higher content rewards a higher average ilvl but getting rewards out of line with the content feels like crap and when 1/10 pieces is tf/wf'd you(your grp) see one every few bosses/dungeons it happens all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Where the f*** did I say anything about wanting "to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment"? That's right, I didn't. If you want to resort to strawman arguments, then just save us all the effort and admit you don't actually have an argument

    Ironically (for you) the whole point of TF was about ensuring character growth. Because TF basically meant that character growth would continue indefinitely, as long as your character continued to do content, just at a slower and slower rate over time. Aside from being more faithful to the RPG genre, this also helped solve the very real problem faced by a significant portion of the playerbase - that of the proverbial "brick wall" - players (and even whole guilds) finding themselves in a position where they had hit a boss that they couldn't overcome (or would require an inordinately long time to get good enough to beat) and had capped out on all available gear upgrades at their current level. TF basically ensured that over time, and with perseverance, such guilds would continue to gain power through gear upgrades, allowing them to overcome those brick wall bosses in a reasonable timeframe (ie before the guild fell apart), without the need for nerfing the raid instance.
    Imagine trying to call out straw manning with what you just did above kekw. Yes TF grants you power but out of line was the point. Imagine playing any single player rpg but 1/50 play throughs the first weapon you pick up off the ground is actually the best weapon in the game. Would that not feel weird to you? Do you not realize how many people would just sit there restarting over and over until they looted that weapon at the start? The RPG genre is about your character going into more and more dangerous areas to get better and better rewards not randomly killing a boar in the woods for the rarest of treasures ever seen.

    "Brickwall bosses" are overcome by tier/instance soft nerf mechanics and blizzard does an excellent job with these normally. TF gear is not needed and is generally a bad idea because as you have said its not dependable on the individual so guild A may get a few TF weapons while guild B keeps getting TF belts or poorly itemized trinkets. They both will continue to grow over the tier from M+ caches/corruption(post vendor)/AP systems/renown/socket and valor items etc... these are healthy and consistent soft nerf systems to tiers because they are balanced from guild to guild and player to player.
    Last edited by Elbob; 2021-09-21 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #124
    No, it's disgusting. You have Valor to upgrade end of dungeon loot and you have Vault. If completing 10x 15+ dungeons is welfare for you that's great, you're amazing. 10x 15+ is my minimum too and I'm comfortable near 2200 rating.

    I only wish the Valor system was extended to include raiding.

    Aren't you happy with semi rng conduits at least a little?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Does TF gear result in gear higher ilvl then the base ilvl reward of the content? _yes or _no? Cause thats my point I never said Steve from LFR is gonna out gear my main.
    If "Steve from LFR" is never gonna outgear your main, then where is the problem? What do you believe is the relevance of the point you're making?


    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    This isnt just about lfr champions that are afraid of pushing content and never leave solo q content. Its about the advantage gained everywhere for people that want to be competitive with those around them. This matters in M+ and raids at all levels. Yes, doing higher content rewards a higher average ilvl but getting rewards out of line with the content feels like crap and when 1/10 pieces is tf/wf'd you(your grp) see one every few bosses/dungeons it happens all the time.
    Sorry to be so blunt, but I just find this line of reasoning to be puerile. It is as though somehow your ego is threatened by the idea that players whom you consider to be inferior to you could get a few pieces of gear that you want to be exclusive to you.

    The simple answer to this is that, by definition, having a few pieces of superior gear is not "out of line" with the content. They moved the line, you just don't want to accept it. I have never felt "crap" about getting TF gear from "lesser" content. Maybe that is because I always looked at my gear holistically. If someone is going to the effort of diligently raiding heroic, normal and LFR every week, then you can you honestly say that they haven't the right to be 2 or 3 ilevels above the person who just raids heroic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Imagine trying to call out straw manning with what you just did above kekw.
    And yet you clearly tried to strawman while I did not. Imagine that....kek

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes TF grants you power but out of line was the point.
    Out of line with what? Some arbitrary definition that you are the sole custodian of? As you already acknowledged, Steve from LFR is never going to outgear your main. So how exactly is the improvement in his power "out of line"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Imagine playing any single player rpg but 1/50 play throughs the first weapon you pick up off the ground is actually the best weapon in the game. Would that not feel weird to you? Do you not realize how many people would just sit there restarting over and over until they looted that weapon at the start? The RPG genre is about your character going into more and more dangerous areas to get better and better rewards not randomly killing a boar in the woods for the rarest of treasures ever seen.
    This is such an asinine analogy. I mean, just for a start, do you even understand the probability of getting a BiS weapon from LFR? It is literally 1 in millions. If you're looking for the most powerful gear in the game, you're going to go to Mythic. Period. The gear you're going to realistically get from even heroic is going to be negligible in the long run, and there is only even value in pursuing that as part of your strategy if you're wanting to get a small edge early on in a highly competitive environment where small differences can make a difference. Normal is just a waste of time for a Mythic raider, and LFR even more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    "Brickwall bosses" are overcome by tier/instance soft nerf mechanics and blizzard does an excellent job with these normally.
    No. Prior to WF and TF, they would hit instances with % nerfs. For guilds who were close to boss kills, this just felt hollow and it was a real problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    TF gear is not needed and is generally a bad idea because as you have said its not dependable on the individual
    No I did not say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    so guild A may get a few TF weapons while guild B keeps getting TF belts or poorly itemized trinkets.
    Not really. Over a raid of 15-20 players killing several bosses every week, statistics take over and most guilds tend to see a consistent improvement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    They both will continue to grow over the tier from M+ caches/corruption(post vendor)/AP systems/renown/socket and valor items etc... these are healthy and consistent soft nerf systems to tiers because they are balanced from guild to guild and player to player.
    All of these things work towards the same goal, sure. So why pick on TF specifically? And it's not like any of those alternatives you mention haven't received just as much, if not more criticism than TF. *shrugs*

  6. #126
    It was fine at the start, but it got crazy in BFA with the huge ilvl, socket and tertiary stats procs.

    And between the crazyness of BFA procs and what we have now? I prefer it the way it is. Tangible bis items instead of a never ending hunt for the ever-elusive jackpot.

    But i'm the type of guy that likes 'ending' a patch cycle. Cleared Mythic, have BIS gear, and do my raidlogging until next patch whilst playing other games or focusing on other hobbies. I understand why people would like it the other way, and i respect that, but i prefer this way.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If "Steve from LFR" is never gonna outgear your main, then where is the problem? What do you believe is the relevance of the point you're making?




    Sorry to be so blunt, but I just find this line of reasoning to be puerile. It is as though somehow your ego is threatened by the idea that players whom you consider to be inferior to you could get a few pieces of gear that you want to be exclusive to you.

    The simple answer to this is that, by definition, having a few pieces of superior gear is not "out of line" with the content. They moved the line, you just don't want to accept it. I have never felt "crap" about getting TF gear from "lesser" content. Maybe that is because I always looked at my gear holistically. If someone is going to the effort of diligently raiding heroic, normal and LFR every week, then you can you honestly say that they haven't the right to be 2 or 3 ilevels above the person who just raids heroic?

    And yet you clearly tried to strawman while I did not. Imagine that....kek


    Out of line with what? Some arbitrary definition that you are the sole custodian of? As you already acknowledged, Steve from LFR is never going to outgear your main. So how exactly is the improvement in his power "out of line"?


    This is such an asinine analogy. I mean, just for a start, do you even understand the probability of getting a BiS weapon from LFR? It is literally 1 in millions. If you're looking for the most powerful gear in the game, you're going to go to Mythic. Period. The gear you're going to realistically get from even heroic is going to be negligible in the long run, and there is only even value in pursuing that as part of your strategy if you're wanting to get a small edge early on in a highly competitive environment where small differences can make a difference. Normal is just a waste of time for a Mythic raider, and LFR even more so.

    No. Prior to WF and TF, they would hit instances with % nerfs. For guilds who were close to boss kills, this just felt hollow and it was a real problem.

    No I did not say that.


    Not really. Over a raid of 15-20 players killing several bosses every week, statistics take over and most guilds tend to see a consistent improvement.

    All of these things work towards the same goal, sure. So why pick on TF specifically? And it's not like any of those alternatives you mention haven't received just as much, if not more criticism than TF. *shrugs*
    -The problem is iterated numerous times in my post did you not read it through before responding? Why ask a question that is answered and you even respond to the answer?

    -You are forcing some serious projection here or something, claiming im threatened, when i haven't made any such claim that I'm afraid of other players having rewards too close to mine. Its not about what the higher difficulty rewards its about getting power not balanced with the content level. If Mythic raid gear could titanforge past the cap I still wouldn't be for it.

    -Lets be clear, I never quoted you said you want to be competitive but higher power gear in a multiplayer environment is a competitive edge on those around you. The statement was a general point not forcing the stance on you but about how TF gear effects the competitive side of the game. You however "That is one of the biggest lies...." there was no misrepresentation of facts as there were not facts stated. I did not lie and the argument is not a "lie". The argument isn't about average ilvl its about individual loots granting more power then they should. So still no on the strawmans. Lets not for get this gem "What they actually want is for the maximum rewards in the game to be perfectly aligned with their preferred playstyle" Ive never seen that argument made by some one against TF in my life and there are plenty of trolls on this forum.

    -Its not asinine because it CAN happen, also the argument holds whether that BiS weapons drops in level 1 of 10, 3 of 10 or 7 of 10. If you play a game and get your best item only 50-70% of the way through a game that constantly drops weapons... its out of place. Its not about hunting the gear stop going back to this point. NO ONE disagrees that you get more average ilvl in mythic raid/high M+, stop swinging at ghosts man.

    -Yes a decade ago shit was handled differently????? And tbh the first iteration of WF didn't bother me because the increase was small and comparable to a socket. The problem with titanforging is that even 15 ilvl is far too out of line as a random power increase on a slot. Why would I be arguing about shit even more then 5 years old? Do I need to put a disclaimer that this discussion is about the impact of titanforging in legion and BFA?

    -statistics take over on an average across all guilds yes but you cant simplify that down to the individual guild or player. Thats just not how stats work. Its gonna be a deviation curve where yea "most" guilds will see an average number of titanforged weapon drops but you will see plenty of outliers that see almost none even across weeks of clears. These outliers both the ups and downs are not good when compared to systems that evenly effect everybody at the same rate.

    -Why am I picking on TF? Because its inconsistent with the rest. The criticism about those other systems was not about the uncontrolled power gains it was most playstyle incentives(over grinding mostly). I specifically mentioned corruption and applied(post vendor) because TF is just like it pre vendor in the sense it was hilariously inconsistent in its reward structure. Getting the right corruption on the right type of gear was a HUGE deal and HUGELY RNG. Once the vendor was out it was a amazing soft nerf system for the last tier of the expac we gained a ton of power over the tier and our resistance went up and we got to put more of that yummy purple text on our gear.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    -The problem is iterated numerous times in my post did you not read it through before responding? Why ask a question that is answered and you even respond to the answer?
    Let me be more clear then. You keep making the unsubstantiated that it is a problem, while carefully avoiding ever alluding to what makes it a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Its not about what the higher difficulty rewards its about getting power not balanced with the content level.
    Maybe you should have said this before instead of using the phrase "out of line". Regardless, I still don't see any warrant to back up this assertion or what makes the power unbalanced to the point that it is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Lets be clear, I never quoted you said you want to be competitive but higher power gear in a multiplayer environment is a competitive edge on those around you. The statement was a general point not forcing the stance on you but about how TF gear effects the competitive side of the game. You however "That is one of the biggest lies...." there was no misrepresentation of facts as there were not facts stated. I did not lie and the argument is not a "lie". The argument isn't about average ilvl its about individual loots granting more power then they should.
    Dude. Stop being disingenuous. You literally are quoted as saying that people wanting TF are "wanting the same rewards as those participating in content above you". It's a very clear misrepresentation of what TF actually results in. Which is dishonest, hence why I called it a lie. And no, you are certainly not the first to use this tactic in this argument and I doubt you'll be the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    So still no on the strawmans.
    Dude, again. You literally tried to argue against me by arguing against a point I patently did not make. That is the very definition of strawmanning. Do yourself a favour and look it up to avoid making that blunder in the future and stop embarrassing yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Lets not for get this gem "What they actually want is for the maximum rewards in the game to be perfectly aligned with their preferred playstyle" Ive never seen that argument made by some one against TF in my life and there are plenty of trolls on this forum.
    It's called an opinion. And no, I have also not seen anyone make such an honest statement. It's simply what I take from reading between the lines. If you think that is strawmanning, well I guess that explains why you don't understand what strawmanning is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Its not asinine because it CAN happen
    It's asinine because you tried to grossly misrepresent both the probability of it happening and the impact on the game through the use of an inappropriate analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    also the argument holds whether that BiS weapons drops in level 1 of 10, 3 of 10 or 7 of 10. If you play a game and get your best item only 50-70% of the way through a game that constantly drops weapons... its out of place.
    Your opinion. And you know what, if you want to think it's out of place, then fine. But you still need to show the harm. What effect does this supposedly "out of place" weapon have on the actual game play? I can tell you right. Almost none. A single item does not make a massive difference to performance. And when the probability of such an occurrence is so low that it literally only affects one in 100 000 players, it has even less of an impact on the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    NO ONE disagrees that you get more average ilvl in mythic raid/high M+, stop swinging at ghosts man.
    And yet average ilvl is what counts. That is what I am saying. You sit there and cry about how imbalanced TF is because of a single item, but a single item just isn't that big a deal. Which is why you use phrases like "wanting the same rewards as those participating in content above you" or wanting "to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment".

    You are trying to create the impression here, as a basis for your argument about how imbalanced this system was, that somehow TF puts people participating in lower difficulty content on a somehow equal footing to people participating in higher difficulty content. And the reason you do this is because if that were indeed the case, you would have a very valid argument against TF. But you can't, because it simply isn't true. Which is the fundamental flaw in your argument. You cannot have your cake and eat it mate. Either TF puts lower difficulty players into the same league, gearwise, as those participating in higher difficulties, or it isn't a real problem. You choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes a decade ago shit was handled differently?????
    You miss the point. TF addressed a very real problem far better than anything preceding it. And you were trying to argue otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    The problem with titanforging is that even 15 ilvl is far too out of line as a random power increase on a slot.
    What is the basis for assessment? Can you explain the impact this has on the game? Because I am telling you that I have never seen any evidence pointing to an actual problem with this situation. And so far the only thing I am taking from your argument is that you cannot handle the notion of a player obtaining a few pieces of gear that normally would be obtained from a higher difficulty of content. And as I have already stated (or at least implied in what I said) I could totally understand this perspective if the results were people becoming geared to a similar level of people doing higher difficulty difficult. But as you yourself agree, NO ONE believes that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    statistics take over on an average across all guilds yes but you cant simplify that down to the individual guild or player. Thats just not how stats work. Its gonna be a deviation curve where yea "most" guilds will see an average number of titanforged weapon drops but you will see plenty of outliers that see almost none even across weeks of clears. These outliers both the ups and downs are not good when compared to systems that evenly effect everybody at the same rate.
    Ok, so let's say that I sort of agree with you that some guilds are going to do better out of TF than others. Why does this even matter?

    If you're talking about the world-first race, then TF "luck" is hardly even a factor. The timeframe is just way too short.

    When you're talking about arbitrary heroic guilds still trying to finish the instance 3 months into the tier, who the hell cares which one got more lucky? It simply doesn't matter. What does matter is that all those guilds are getting some kind of gear progression that helps them get past their brick walls, and there is no way, over that time frame that they won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Why am I picking on TF? Because its inconsistent with the rest. The criticism about those other systems was not about the uncontrolled power gains it was most playstyle incentives(over grinding mostly). I specifically mentioned corruption and applied(post vendor) because TF is just like it pre vendor in the sense it was hilariously inconsistent in its reward structure. Getting the right corruption on the right type of gear was a HUGE deal and HUGELY RNG. Once the vendor was out it was a amazing soft nerf system for the last tier of the expac we gained a ton of power over the tier and our resistance went up and we got to put more of that yummy purple text on our gear.
    Sounds to me a lot like FOMO. You want everyone to get exactly the same rewards, and be clones of each other. I cannot imagine anything more boring. This is why I see RNG as a good thing: It forces us, as individuals, to play the hand we are dealt. Sometimes we get lucky and get to own the meters in spite of there being other, better players than us. Other times we have to let someone else take the limelight.

    If everyone had exactly the same gear then the truth about exactly how good we are would be laid bare for ALL to see. And I honestly don't believe that most players could handle that truth. By having some RNG in the mix we can never know exactly where we stand, and 19 out of 20 players in a raid won't have to face up to the fact that they are second rate next to the one star.

  9. #129
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    nope, TF/WF was one of the worst things ever added into the game.

  10. #130
    Fuck TF and WF. What it needs is justice points to upgrade your gear up to a point.

  11. #131
    Nah, Titanforging was bad, BUT: Titanforging is necessary. The issue is simply one thing:

    BORING LOOT

    Yes, the biggest issue is not that there is no titanforging, but that there isn't enough variety. We have 2 main stats, and 4 different one and some insignificant tertiary ones. But Titanforging was a necessary evil. Not the biggest fan of it, but between having loot right now and titanforging, i take Titanforging. That said i would rather want more stats and more gear slots. The same crit/haste/mastery/versility again and again is not enough.

    And a little bit of luck is good too. But Titanforging was simply too much of it; especially in Raids.

    But with the gear we have right now i think that Titanforging would be good, but only with a bad luck protection: And here comes Valor: The Valor upgrade is a good thing, but i would also keep titanforging and make players be able to titanforge items themself with valor points if for example you have 10 titanforged gloves drop, but never on your chest armor. Then you can alway upgrade it with Valor points.

    But in the end Titanforging is a bandaid for bad loot design: it's good to have one when it is bad, but you should not keep it for years on.

  12. #132
    Rather than luck deciding ilvl I would like them to double down on progress deciding it.

    Keystone Master means all your gear upgradable to 246, make Valor uncapped. So the RNG is only getting the item you want on whatever M+ level. Then if you can do all 15s you can easily upgrade all your gear to 246. Maybe another level like +20 achievement means you get to upgrade to 252. If you could upgrade with uncapped valor we wouldn't need the vault anymore.

  13. #133
    no thank you, i saw enought in Legion and BFA how stupid TF was. However i wouldnt mind if they upped the droprates tho, too many M+ runs without loot

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault.

    I want to play the game to get upgrades, not sit and wait for my weekly welfare loot.

    Legion/first half of Bfa were the greatest. Every end of dungeon chest contained a potential big upgrade. Every dungeon was run in anticipation of great loot. Fun times.

    Blizzard always listens to the wrong people. Titanforging was the greatest. Loot and M+ are super boring in Shadowlands.


    Gearing as of now is fine with m15 gear locked at 252 in the vault, and below heroic at the end of a run.

    Ever since launch in 2004 the most important gearing came from a bigger group effort ( raiding )

    Bringing back TF would only make the most toxic part of the community beyond control in terms of toxicity.

  15. #135
    You already have to run instances 20-30+ times hoping that one specific item drops, and that it drops for you and not someone else. On top of that you'll need valor to upgrade it (hope you didn't spend it on a something else already!).
    Now do it until that magical TF/WF proc happens (if it ever happens at all). No thanks to that terrible 'game play'.

  16. #136
    Doesn't that just mean you should push into higher difficulty content for more ilevels, like it was before titanforging? I thought that's what people wanted.

    I'm pretty neutral, titanforging never ruined anything for me, and helped me push past ilevel barriers to get into harder content. Problem is I raided so much in Legion my wrist problems amped up so I can't really get a clear before/after. >.<
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Nah, Titanforging was bad, BUT: Titanforging is necessary. The issue is simply one thing:

    BORING LOOT

    Yes, the biggest issue is not that there is no titanforging, but that there isn't enough variety. We have 2 main stats, and 4 different one and some insignificant tertiary ones. But Titanforging was a necessary evil. Not the biggest fan of it, but between having loot right now and titanforging, i take Titanforging. That said i would rather want more stats and more gear slots. The same crit/haste/mastery/versility again and again is not enough.

    And a little bit of luck is good too. But Titanforging was simply too much of it; especially in Raids.

    But with the gear we have right now i think that Titanforging would be good, but only with a bad luck protection: And here comes Valor: The Valor upgrade is a good thing, but i would also keep titanforging and make players be able to titanforge items themself with valor points if for example you have 10 titanforged gloves drop, but never on your chest armor. Then you can alway upgrade it with Valor points.

    But in the end Titanforging is a bandaid for bad loot design: it's good to have one when it is bad, but you should not keep it for years on.
    the biggest issue is that SL lost 80-90 % of playerbase

    and removal TF was one of main factors why it happend

    i mean if blizzard is happy to loose 90 % of cutomers more power to them

    i know that if i would loose my company 90 % of customers i would likely be unemployable in any business ever after not mentioned that i would be fired long before all those customers left - even loosign10 % of customers should be seen as tragedy for multi billion $ company

    but hey Ion is the most succesfull game director ever

    so blizzard is happy with loosing all those customers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wastingthedayaway View Post
    You already have to run instances 20-30+ times hoping that one specific item drops, and that it drops for you and not someone else. On top of that you'll need valor to upgrade it (hope you didn't spend it on a something else already!).
    Now do it until that magical TF/WF proc happens (if it ever happens at all). No thanks to that terrible 'game play'.
    oh are there people likethat in game ? lol they need to seek proffesional help

    normal people run instances and wear whatever drops and whatever has higher itlv.

  18. #138
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    No, u get the gear u work for.

    "It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault."

    Easier solution would be to up the rewards, give +ilvl to as high as u can go

    I havnt played for a while, so i dont know what current ilvl caps are for M+, last i played +14 was cap for ilvl, so let ppl get upgrades to like 25+, if they can clear it.

    Capping gear ilvl at certain M+ levels was kinda dumb, let people push and get rewarded for it there and then.
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  19. #139
    No. It's bad cause then I might not get a titanforge version of my BiS... if I ever do get my BiS.

    Yea, I miss the forge rolls too. It's been alot more boring getting excited for an avoidance stat at best.

  20. #140
    High Overlord
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    Valor is completely pointless with a cap. It's one of the worst features they have ever put in the game.

    One of the best things about Legion/BFA was that you could really play a ton some weeks and knew that there was always a chance that someone could get an upgrade, especially when you got to the stage where most players had two pieces of loot per instance. The salt when that player was you... glorious!

    It's also boring because the actual instance quality is so much lower than Legion/BFA.
    Even the most disliked Legion instances (Cathedral/Seat) were more fun than the SL instances.

    I hope they do better next expansion.

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