M+ needs back Titanforging

[prwraith]

I'm gonna have to hit this with a fuck no.

[Recovery]

The game is much better without, it leaves gearing on a more level playing field instead of just having people who are insanely lucky or have limitless time get far ahead.

This.

Taking it out was honestly less about luck and more about people creating their own luck by spending 20 hours on the game grinding the same thing to get that titabforge.

it was also removed because the gearing path through pvp was made pretty much irrelevant by it.

What blizzard should have done was learned from systems that worked in the past such as valor vendors. There should be a valor vendor that offers max ilvl pve gear for certain slots so that goal can also be worked toward.

M+ is a competitive aspect of the game. Beyond a certain point, the rewards should be strictly cosmetic.

Add mounts, transmog, titles, etc.. to the top X,Y, and Z percentage of M+ scores and be done with it.

[Kersey]

Titanforging was the greatest.

If RNG loot is your thing just go farm full primals + ethereals in the latest season of Diablo III. We need less of the RNG systems from Diablo in wow, not more.

[Spiffums]

Oh im sorry, i guess i forgot m+ and increased difficulties of raids exist. My bad. /s

In all seriousness, the argument is a bad one and you should feel bad. They removed titanforging because it had much more negatives than positives.

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0 data supports your theory.

yeah because there is 0 data that supports Blizzard slowing down the acquiring of gear.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

A high end player is truly not affected by a heroic raider that got lucky even if by some chance they were so lucky they have even better ilvl than them. Outside the principle of "But why should he have better gear", there is actually no problem. None affect the other much. Maybe skew the queues a little.

Highend players dont want forging and RNG in general cuz:

A. getting benched in progress cuz good guilds have a roster of 30-40 ppl

B. you cant trade the item (i remember my DH getting forged mythic font of power that i had to dissenchant it cuz i would never use it) while our 3 mages smashed the keyboard in discord

C. it fucks up logs you cant compete if you dont get lucky with froged mainhand + trinkets and logs are the only thing that keeps us good palyers motivated after the content is clear

and not cuz they are mad of a rnd HC dog that gets 1 item, only bad players like rng cuz they have no negativ side effects they can only win runnig +2 keys and lfr

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I'm not sure what point you think you were making there but in the previous expansion and at the start of this one I was in a top 50 guild. There were quite a few people who didn't run M+. You'll find players in any guild that do run it, but you'll probably find a lot more who just don't bother.

dont lie youwill get g kicked if you dont have split alts rdy and that means runnig keys, source: a guy whos plays in wr 10-50 for 14 years maybe you confusing top 50 NA witch is wr 600 garbage or so then you dont need splits true

[froschhure]

And random and new Powers from the latest affix would be refreshing to see. It feels so empty getting only the same powers

[Redroniksre]

That's the GOOD side of WF/TF.

But there's a BAD side to it as well, namely that you might run keys until you're blue in the face and never get a good WF/TF proc; while Nooby McCasual over there gets two insane pieces in a week.

That's why valor is superior - yes it's slow, but it's also consistent. It's the difference between having a salary, and winning the lottery; yes one may make you rich instantly, but what if it doesn't and you spend your days living on the street?

This was the issue with TF/WF, well one of the main ones. That is why i always advocated having both systems work together. TF to give you that lottery feel of getting a super good piece, while valor slow builds to guarantee you upgrading a piece you already have. The other problem was it making people grind (which i don't quite know how to fix without some sort of cap) and some high end players getting jealous because somebody else is enjoying the game and not them.

[Biomega]

some high end players getting jealous because somebody else is enjoying the game and not them.

That's a very common mischaracterization of what's actually going on.

It's not about jealousy - it's about rewarding effort. If I grind for 50 hours to get an item and it just doesn't come, but someone else gets the item in 5 minutes I'm not mad because they got the item - I'm mad that my hard work hasn't paid off in proportion to how much I've put in. Sure on average, across a large population, it'll even out; but that doesn't help the individual who's subject to wild RNG swings like that.

Casual O'Weaksauce getting their item randomly doesn't bother anyone in and of itself, it merely illustrates the downsides of a system that's too reliant on randomness as a reward factor.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I'll take Corruptions again, actually.


Maaaaaan do I miss my 11 Ineffable Truths.

[Th3Scourge]

Bring back corruptions

[Redroniksre]

That's a very common mischaracterization of what's actually going on.

It's not about jealousy - it's about rewarding effort. If I grind for 50 hours to get an item and it just doesn't come, but someone else gets the item in 5 minutes I'm not mad because they got the item - I'm mad that my hard work hasn't paid off in proportion to how much I've put in. Sure on average, across a large population, it'll even out; but that doesn't help the individual who's subject to wild RNG swings like that.

Casual O'Weaksauce getting their item randomly doesn't bother anyone in and of itself, it merely illustrates the downsides of a system that's too reliant on randomness as a reward factor.

Grinding 50 hours and not getting anything is part of the weakness of the system, that is what should of been targetted. People lack the context that the big rolling item is likely the only one Casual O'Weaksauce has, while the raider would likely be decked in far better raiding gear overall. Instead of trying to fix the system to be adequately rewarding to everyone, they just went after Casual O'Weaksauce.

[Raelbo]

Or systems could be designed to not encourage this kind of behavior.

TF didn't *encourage* that kind of behaviour though. That is what I am saying. It allowed that kind of behaviour, but the rewards were, objectively, never enough to force anyone to put themselves through that unless they actually wanted to. This was always a question of personal choice.

And is it really a bad choice or merely the choice of least resistance to gain player power?

Doing every difficulty of a raid in an effort to obtain TF was never the path of least resistance. It was the path of maximum reward with little or no concern for effort.

And committing a significant amount of effort into something you don't enjoy when it isn't even close to necessary is, absolutely, a bad choice.

Players in WoW will (if given the opportunity) min/max the shit out of game systems for those tiny gains in throughput. Honestly that's not a good thing for the long term health of the game (or to the players).

Yes. But I would argue that it is impossible to design a system that cannot be min/maxxed. You're describing a player problem, not a system problem.

The way systems like TF and AP worked is that getting the power you need was relatively easy. Obtaining exceptional power required a significant amount of extra effort, but might be considered worth it for people choosing to tackle the hardest content in the game. And then there was the purely optional infinite grind, which yielded marginally more power, unnecessary, and with insane amounts of effort.

What is great about such a philosophy is that it caters to the entire spectrum of players. Because some people actually like that insane infinite grind. And if you don't like that grind, the correct answer is don't do it, not arguing the removal of it - that's just incredibly selfish.

In current (live) WoW, the great vault is an excellent example. How many players try to get 9 bosses killed + 10 M+ done and whatever amount of PvP needed to get a full 3x3 grid of choices? Especially at the start of a raid tier, that is exhausting to do on 1 character and yet players will do it for multiple characters for those potential power gains.

As always, people are free to do whatever they like. How much extra effort you want to put into gaining power, above what is actually necessary, is, and should be, up to the individual. In short, there is a clear distinction between what you *should* be doing, as a minimum, to maintain your power at the required level, and what you *could* be doing above and beyond that, should you choose to, for a small extra amount of power.

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Wanting rewards to reflect content levels you are participating in OR wanting the same rewards as those participating in content above you because RNG procs are fun?

That is one of the biggest lies (by misrepresentation of facts) propagated by the opponents of TF. The real *fact* is that there was simply no way that the rewards obtained by participants in lower content levels could even come close to the rewards obtained by those participating in the higher content levels.

Sure, committed LFR raiders would have landed up with several pieces of gear equal to normal mode gear, and even possibly a piece or two of heroic mode gear with a very low chance of a mythic piece of gear. But people raiding normal would still have been substantially ahead, with heroic raiders ahead of them and mythic raiders further ahead still. This supposed "problem" you're talking about was entirely imaginary.

If you want to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment RPGs are the wrong genre since they are generally about character growth. If you want to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment RPGs are the wrong genre since they are generally about character growth.

Where the f*** did I say anything about wanting "to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment"? That's right, I didn't. If you want to resort to strawman arguments, then just save us all the effort and admit you don't actually have an argument

Ironically (for you) the whole point of TF was about ensuring character growth. Because TF basically meant that character growth would continue indefinitely, as long as your character continued to do content, just at a slower and slower rate over time. Aside from being more faithful to the RPG genre, this also helped solve the very real problem faced by a significant portion of the playerbase - that of the proverbial "brick wall" - players (and even whole guilds) finding themselves in a position where they had hit a boss that they couldn't overcome (or would require an inordinately long time to get good enough to beat) and had capped out on all available gear upgrades at their current level. TF basically ensured that over time, and with perseverance, such guilds would continue to gain power through gear upgrades, allowing them to overcome those brick wall bosses in a reasonable timeframe (ie before the guild fell apart), without the need for nerfing the raid instance.

[Vynx]

I didn't mind wf/tf before, it was actually a big dopamine dump when a nice rolled tf item dropped.
Now SL pisses me off because I don't even get loot multiple dungeons in a row.

I spammed tf out of BfA M+ on multiple alts. In SL i barely played, except after they announced the 9.1.5 changes.
Those who cried against wf/tf don't know what they want.

[Bloomer]

Do you want to know what M+ truly needs? It needs to go.

[Caerrona]

I didn't mind wf/tf before, it was actually a big dopamine dump when a nice rolled tf item dropped.
Now SL pisses me off because I don't even get loot multiple dungeons in a row.

I spammed tf out of BfA M+ on multiple alts. In SL i barely played, except after they announced the 9.1.5 changes.
Those who cried against wf/tf don't know what they want.

You still get 2 pcs of gear out the chest and more for doing above 15s.

Bfa was not only "did the piece drop" but "did it drop tf x20" if not it was useless.

Those who cry for tf/wf don't know what they want.

[david0925]

Perhaps its not tf/wf that needs to come back but mplus being spammable that is. If they arent spammable you can raise their overilvl.

Never understood why they felt the need to add greater rift to wow

[Raelbo]

Those who cried against wf/tf don't know what they want.

Yup.

What they actually want is for the maximum rewards in the game to be perfectly aligned with their preferred playstyle. They don't want it to be possible for a player willing to put in more time to be able to gain an advantage over them, while wanting to be at a clear advantage over everyone unwilling to match their efforts.

[Kaver]

No. The real problem is players making bad choices about how to spend their time and then ironically calling the system stupid for "making" them act in such a way.

Sorry, but anyone who came away with the perception that they were required to do every level of content for a minuscule chance at something have only themselves to blame. The simple fact of the matter is every player has a finite amount of time to spend playing this game, and if you're trying to maximise your effectiveness, there were significantly better things to spend one's time doing than running lower difficulty content for a negligible shot at an upgrade.

The design intent of TF wrt LFR was absolutely not to get everyone running LFR in a desperate effort to win that 1 in a million chance of a meaningful upgrade. It was actually so that people who were happy to do LFR didn't feel that it was something that should be avoided on the basis that there was zero chance of obtaining anything useful. It was about giving players the freedom to choose content based on what they enjoy, rather than on what was dictated, by the game, to be mandatory.

Personally I like that the game people options and allowed us to choose how to spend our time. It was rewarding to those who were smart enough to figure out to optimize their playstyle according to their objectives instead of trying to do everything possible.

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Even in this case TF wasn't detrimental to anyone. If a raid lineup is going to come down to who has the better gear, then random luck is always going to be a factor. You can't blame that on TF.

I think Titanforging was good in relation to making content relevant.

I Titanforging was bad in relation to the extremely random nature of it.

I agree that all content should feel rewarding. But for me Titanforging is not the answer due to the RNG tied to it. At least not for higher end content where you often target certain trinkets etc.

Maybe they could make a RNG based system (e.g Titanforging) for lower end content like LFR and then a more reliable system (e.g valor) for higher end content.

[Raelbo]

Bfa was not only "did the piece drop" but "did it drop tf x20" if not it was useless.

That is a demonstrably false assertion.

You would only *need* a tf x 20 drop if you already had a tf x 19 version. Which means that prior to obtaining said tf x 20 version, the tf x 19 version was very much useful. And so on.

What I am really seeing in your statement is a fundamentally flawed approach to the game (if you're wanting to have fun, that is). You're so focused on the idea of getting BiS gear that you've lost sight of the point of the game, which is to clear content. And gear is simply a means to achieving that. You don't need BiS gear for anything. Sure, having some BiS pieces helps, but as long as your gear is progressing/improving, that's all that really matters. An upgrade is still an upgrade. It's progress. If you could learn to recognise what you gained, rather than what you didn't gain, I can guarantee you that you would get a lot more enjoyment out of the game.

Those who cry for tf/wf don't know what they want.

On the contrary, we actually have a basis for claiming we want it, since, you know, we've actually experienced it.

[Kaver]

Yup.

What they actually want is for the maximum rewards in the game to be perfectly aligned with their preferred playstyle. They don't want it to be possible for a player willing to put in more time to be able to gain an advantage over them, while wanting to be at a clear advantage over everyone unwilling to match their efforts.

This is not true for me at least. I just like to be more in control of the gear I’m getting. I also don’t enjoy the random nature of the weekly vault very much.

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On the contrary, we actually have a basis for claiming we want it, since, you know, we've actually experienced it.

I mean, you can also turn that argument around since we have also experienced the game without Titanforging. More often than not.

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you've lost sight of the point of the game, which is to clear content.

But then you can start discussing if game design should be based on players clearing content because they improve in term of skills or because they out gear the content to an extent where skills become a secondary asset.

I mean, gear has always been a way of artificially nerfing bosses in WoW. But titanforging took that to another level.

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Perhaps its not tf/wf that needs to come back but mplus being spammable that is. If they arent spammable you can raise their overilvl.

Never understood why they felt the need to add greater rift to wow

I agree. And Blizzard actually to some degree removed the spammable nature of M+ by adding a cap to valor. Of course you can still get unlimited pieces of gear but there's a limit to how much you can upgrade them. I would like to see them just completely remove random gear from M+ and add everything to a vendor. Exactly the same as they did with pvp.

In terms of how quickly we gear they can completely control that by defining the drop rate of the currency (valor) and the weekly limit of it.

The average wow player enjoy playing alts so it's not so important to have infinitely spammable content in the game.