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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    so we're reduced to out right lying now? that's how you think you "win" this discussion? you're pathetic...
    That's not a lie, that's literally what is being discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  2. #582
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then "common law" isn't going to be the future argument.
    Common law was never the justification for this besides you misinterpreting people's posts as usual, bub.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, the literal purpose of a jury system is to introduce subjectivity into the legal process and rely on subjective interpretations of laypeople in determining what is or is not "justice".
    This is going to end up in the hands of the Supreme Court, no jury there.

    In the case of a jury, all the defense would have to argue, is that their speech is protected, because their statements are verifiably true.

    the burden falls entirely on those making the accusations, and getting past the fact that the statements were true, is a huge mountain to climb. What would a lay person think, if a libel suit was brought, and the statements were true?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Common law was never the justification for this besides you misinterpreting people's posts as usual, bub.
    You claimed common law.

    Meanwhile, this hypothetical law would mean punishing speech that is verifiably correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  4. #584
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    In the case of a jury, all the defense would have to argue, is that their speech is protected, because their statements are verifiably true.
    Then it wasn't misinformation by definition and would have been cleared by fact checking.

    Remind me what you're complaining about, again?
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  5. #585
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not a lie, that's literally what is being discussed.
    You get a choice of two options, here;

    A> The government already controls speech, as can be demonstrated by the many forms of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment, including, yes, child porn. You've stated you support this status quo, ergo, you support the government controlling speech, and have no business complaining about further laws in that regard, on that basis.

    B> The actions of the government in restricting harmful speech cannot be construed as "controlling speech", as it blacklists harmful actions rather than whitelisting approved speech topics or the like. In this case, you need to retract the claim that a proposed anti-misinformation law would be "the government controlling speech", because this is entirely in line with the existing framings of unprotected speech, which you've now agreed are not "the government controlling speech".

    It's A or B. And either way, you've tripped over yourself.


  6. #586
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You claimed common law.
    As a rebuttal to your claim truth is the deciding factor when it comes to protected speech, not as justification for regulating social media.

    The justification for regulating social media is the rampant plague of fake news and misinformation that has caused or contributed to several major political and social crises. Try to keep up.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Then it wasn't misinformation by definition and would have been cleared by fact checking.

    Remind me what you're complaining about, again?
    Except... they are facts, which is the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #588
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except... they are facts
    That's nice, except... we're talking about misinformation.

    You're the one who barged off on this stupid tangent about the government banning facts despite there being no evidence that would be the outcome and no one actually expressing support for banning factual information.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  9. #589
    It's true that drinking bleach is a cure for viruses...so says Trump.

  10. #590
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This is going to end up in the hands of the Supreme Court, no jury there.
    Just the subjective opinions of SCOTUS judges.

    Again; the court system is intentionally subjective.

    In the case of a jury, all the defense would have to argue, is that their speech is protected, because their statements are verifiably true.
    That wouldn't work. Already explained why. Because the defense's argument there is a false statement. So false it could potentially get them disbarred just for trying that kind of shit.

    the burden falls entirely on those making the accusations, and getting past the fact that the statements were true, is a huge mountain to climb. What would a lay person think, if a libel suit was brought, and the statements were true?
    Again, still not talking about libel, here. Why do you keep bringing it up?

    The "truth" defense only works for libel. And wouldn't even apply to misinformation cases, because the statements are not true. You're lying when you claim they are. You're willfully ignoring context, as those pushing the misinformation do. That makes it a lie.


  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You get a choice of two options, here;

    A> The government already controls speech, as can be demonstrated by the many forms of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment, including, yes, child porn. You've stated you support this status quo, ergo, you support the government controlling speech, and have no business complaining about further laws in that regard, on that basis.

    B> The actions of the government in restricting harmful speech cannot be construed as "controlling speech", as it blacklists harmful actions rather than whitelisting approved speech topics or the like. In this case, you need to retract the claim that a proposed anti-misinformation law would be "the government controlling speech", because this is entirely in line with the existing framings of unprotected speech, which you've now agreed are not "the government controlling speech".

    It's A or B. And either way, you've tripped over yourself.
    No, I don't have to choose.

    I have agreed that the government restricts speech, and has done so on many occasions. Of course i can complain about further laws. That's like saying you think the government has a right to place regulations on immigration, so therefore you have no business complaining if they restrict all immigration, or decide to ban Muslims from entering the country.

    So, sufficiently popped.

    So, you do think the government is allowed to control immigration, do you not?

    Careful. Besides, I know you'll call this a deflection, when it's really just an easy way to refute your assertion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  12. #592
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except... they are facts, which is the problem.
    Again, not in the context being discussed, they aren't.

    It's like how people can cite accurate crime statistics, but frame them to highlight an over-representation of black citizens, to push a racist agenda, and that the statistics are technically true won't provide any kind of defense if they get fired or their actions amount to enough to qualify for hate crime charges. Because of the surrounding context of everything else being said/done.


  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    That's nice, except... we're talking about misinformation.

    You're the one who barged off on this stupid tangent about the government banning facts despite there being no evidence that would be the outcome and no one actually expressing support for banning factual information.
    And as I pointed out, that can come in the form of verifiable facts. So, do you want to restrict people from making those factual statements?

    The list was provided.

    There is no evidence, because your imaginary law doesn't exist, and you have yet to properly explain it. That's not a "me" problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #594
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And as I pointed out, that can come in the form of verifiable facts.
    In a context that would make the gestalt nonfactual, thus putting your 'truth' argument in the ground. Rofl.

    You don't get out of a fraud indictment because some of what you said was true, dude.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, not in the context being discussed, they aren't.

    It's like how people can cite accurate crime statistics, but frame them to highlight an over-representation of black citizens, to push a racist agenda, and that the statistics are technically true won't provide any kind of defense if they get fired or their actions amount to enough to qualify for hate crime charges. Because of the surrounding context of everything else being said/done.
    No, they are facts. I posted them. Do you want to see the verifiable evidence to back them up? If a statement is made, and it is factual, there really is no way around it.

    So, let's make it simple, a very common piece of misinformation.

    "People who get the vaccine can still get sick, spread the disease, be hospitalized, and die from Covid-19."

    This is 100% a verifiable statement. This is also a classic form of misinformation. A lack of context doesn't make the statement untrue, it makes it incomplete.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  16. #596
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    "People who get the vaccine can still get sick, spread the disease, be hospitalized, and die from Covid-19."

    This is 100% a verifiable statement. This is also a classic form of misinformation.
    This literally not misinformation, it's just lacking crucial context. Lol.

    If it were "There is no point in getting the vaccine BECAUSE people who have had the shot can still xyz", that WOULD be misinformation.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-09-24 at 03:23 AM.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    In a context that would make the gestalt nonfactual, thus putting your 'truth' argument in the ground. Rofl.

    You don't get out of a fraud indictment because some of what you said was true, dude.
    What part of this statement is non-factual?

    "People who get the vaccine can still get sick, spread the disease, be hospitalized, and die from Covid-19."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1341

    Would fraud law apply?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #598
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, I don't have to choose.
    I mean, if you don't, and you waffle between the two as you've been doing, that just means you're a hypocrite and don't actually believe either, because you're not here participating in good faith.

    That's certainly an option.

    I have agreed that the government restricts speech, and has done so on many occasions. Of course i can complain about further laws. That's like saying you think the government has a right to place regulations on immigration, so therefore you have no business complaining if they restrict all immigration, or decide to ban Muslims from entering the country.

    So, sufficiently popped.
    No, this is a dodge, based on you misrepresenting the positions you were presented with. You're lying, here. Again, the point was that if you agree that speech can be restricted, you cannot rationally oppose further restrictions on speech on that basis. You've already conceded that restricting speech can be good. You yourself have admitted it is not grounds for opposition.

    When you then oppose it on that basis, you're being a hypocrite.

    You can't have it both ways. You pick one, or the other, or you're a hypocrite. Try not excluding "on that basis" the next time you think you've figured out a way to avoid the point.

    So, you do think the government is allowed to control immigration, do you not?

    Careful. Besides, I know you'll call this a deflection, when it's really just an easy way to refute your assertion.
    It is a deflection. But yes; the government can obviously control immigration; barring a known terrorist from immigrating is, obviously, sensible. It's always going to be about why immigration of certain people is being restricted, not that immigration is restricted.

    Same with speech, which is why you're not refuting anything here. Just apparently finding out that I'm not going to be a hypocrite about the principles I've set forth.


  19. #599
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What part of this statement is non-factual?
    Misinformation is nonfactual by definition, please stop bringing up irrelevant tangents.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This literally not misinformation, it's just lacking crucial context. Lol.
    So, all those verifiably-true claims are not misinformation in your eyes, and you seem to have no recourse. Since I pointed out a great deal of the shit being posted is just like this, or simply statements of opinion based on "concern," or "having questions," then you seem to have very little recourse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Misinformation is nonfactual by definition, please stop bringing up irrelevant tangents.
    It's not irrelevant, because that's wat a great deal of misinformation is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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