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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Wouldn't be murder if it was self defense would it.... lmfao... Do you not know what murder is?
    Just like it isn’t always libel but that doesn’t mean lying is always legal. Should I slow down?

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No. You didn't.

    You moved the goalposts to authoritarian governments being "bad".

    That has nothing to do with the nationalisation of certain companies.



    Nobody's opposing freedom of speech, here. This is you trying to invent a character attack. Another tactic you use repeatedly when challenged, rather than actually defending your claims.



    This is deflection, trying to make me answer leading questions. I never actually took a position in either direction.

    That I don't support it myself is not relevant, since we weren't discussing my position, we were discussing how meritless your arguments against it were.

    Again, recursive dishonesty on display. You refuse to answer simple questions, and dodge every point with chicanery like this.
    You didn't answer the question, so I'll take that as an affirmative. I literally asked you for your position, and you dodged.

    Meanwhile, you chimed in to defend a guy calling to nationalize all companies (just to be sure, we'll assume he meant just social media companies). It's not a deflection, because that's literally the conversation you chose to barge into. So, if you don't want to talk about it, then why did you interject in order to change the subject and blame me for what he said?

    I pointed out how nationalization, especially when it comes to things regarding the first Amendment... is damn dangerous. Imagine if Trump's administration had nationalized all the social media companies, or all the news stations. If you don't see the risk of abuse, then there's not much I can do for you. Or, if you don't like that hypothetical, look no further than China, who is terrible, and still not even as authoritarian as the other poster wants.

    I get that you want to come in like a knight in shining armor, because that other dude was drowning, but really this is just highlighting that you don't like me personally, and think that this is an actual argument.

    They are opposing freedom of speech. Shit, it's so bad, they are swearing that this isn't even an issue of free speech, or the First Amendment... when it is blatantly so, and we laid out exactly why it is.

    You asked no questions. Now you want to be pissed at me, for not answering a question you never asked. meanwhile, you never answered my question. The irony is pretty damn strong right now. Really, you should probably just slink away at this point, you seem to be projecting a great deal. Hell, at the very best, you are trying to argue a point you don't even believe in, to defend a guy who also doesn't believe in his argument enough to actually know his own argument.

    As for my position, I have laid it out quite clearly. meanwhile, the guy who laid the claim in the first place, and never backed it up, is the one you insist on defending. Since you have no desire to go after him, then the only logical conclusion is that you simply don't like me, and want to argue... just to argue. Well, let's have it, go ahead and argue for him. lay down your stance, and actually claim something, instead of simply whining that some other dude got wrecked in a debate.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-09-21 at 09:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  3. #163
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Just like it isn’t always libel but that doesn’t mean lying is always legal. Should I slow down?
    You do you cause I'm not getting into this with you again. You define words how you want to
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  4. #164
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You didn't answer the question, so I'll take that as an affirmative. I literally asked you for your position, and you dodged.
    I literally answered that question, right in the post you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't support it myself
    So you're choosing to just directly lie about that.

    Meanwhile, you chimed in to defend a guy calling to nationalize all companies (just to be sure, we'll assume he meant just social media companies). It's not a deflection, because that's literally the conversation you chose to barge into. So, if you don't want to talk about it, then why did you interject in order to change the subject and blame me for what he said?
    Because your arguments against it were nonsense and dishonest.

    I don't have to agree with them to take you to task for shitty, misleading arguments. This isn't a team sport. There aren't any "sides".

    I pointed out how nationalization, especially when it comes to things regarding the first Amendment... is damn dangerous. Imagine if Trump's administration had nationalized all the social media companies, or all the news stations. If you don't see the risk of abuse, then there's not much I can do for you. Or, if you don't like that hypothetical, look no further than China, who is terrible, and still not even as authoritarian as the other poster wants.
    In the case of an authoritarian regime, this all becomes moot, because said regime will pass whatever new abusive laws it chooses to, by virtue of being authoritarian. Bringing up that possibility is an attempt to deflect.


  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I literally answered that question, right in the post you quoted.



    So you're choosing to just directly lie about that.



    Because your arguments against it were nonsense and dishonest.

    I don't have to agree with them to take you to task for shitty, misleading arguments. This isn't a team sport. There aren't any "sides".



    In the case of an authoritarian regime, this all becomes moot, because said regime will pass whatever new abusive laws it chooses to, by virtue of being authoritarian. Bringing up that possibility is an attempt to deflect.
    Your wording was deliberately vague, which I think was the point. I want no wiggle room, I want to know exactly where you stand, no dancing around the issue.

    My argument was fine, simply saying "That's not an argument" isn't an argument of any substance. It's a deflection, a whine. Meanwhile, i stated exactly why it would be bad, and gave real-life examples of why I oppose it. This is literally an attempt to subvert the First Amendment, smoothing the path and removing obstacles for such authoritarian regimes.

    "That I don't support it myself is not relevant, since we weren't discussing my position, we were discussing how meritless your arguments against it were."

    SO, what exactly is YOUR POSITION?

    Feel free to keep defending him, I look forward to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  6. #166
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Your wording was deliberately vague, which I think was the point. I want no wiggle room, I want to know exactly where you stand, no dancing around the issue.
    What on Earth is "vague" about "I don't support it myself"?

    My argument was fine, simply saying "That's not an argument" isn't an argument of any substance. It's a deflection, a whine. Meanwhile, i stated exactly why it would be bad, and gave real-life examples of why I oppose it. This is literally an attempt to subvert the First Amendment, smoothing the path and removing obstacles for such authoritarian regimes.
    I'm not deflecting anything.

    You're refusing to discuss nationalization of companies, which was the subject you came in on. You keep deflecting (as you do here) to complaints about authoritarian regimes (which would have the same power to restrict freedoms, nationalization or no) or to freedom of speech (which wasn't being discussed in the first place, and there's no reason to think a coordinated disinformation campaign would fall under protected speech either).

    "That I don't support it myself is not relevant, since we weren't discussing my position, we were discussing how meritless your arguments against it were."

    SO, what exactly is YOUR POSITION?
    You literally just quoted it. I can't read the text for you. It's right frickin' there.

    You're still deflecting, though, because you don't want to spend time discussing nationalization of social media companies for some reason.

    Edit: You seem to want me to go on some diatribe about the exact details of what I, personally, believe. So that you can pick that apart. Which would just be another deflection away from the original point, which you continue to refuse to discuss. My personal point of view on this wasn't under discussion, and I don't see how it's relevant in the first place, other than as another attempt to derail.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-09-21 at 09:26 PM.


  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What on Earth is "vague" about "I don't support it myself"?



    I'm not deflecting anything.

    You're refusing to discuss nationalization of companies, which was the subject you came in on. You keep deflecting (as you do here) to complaints about authoritarian regimes (which would have the same power to restrict freedoms, nationalization or no) or to freedom of speech (which wasn't being discussed in the first place, and there's no reason to think a coordinated disinformation campaign would fall under protected speech either).

    You literally just quoted it. I can't read the text for you. It's right frickin' there.

    You're still deflecting, though, because you don't want to spend time discussing nationalization of social media companies for some reason.
    No, you said, "that I don't agree with him..." Nope... another dodge. I want to know exactly what YOU BELIEVE.

    I am more than willing to discuss nationalization of all companies, which is what the other poster proposed. I simply pointed out just how fucking dangerous and authoritarian that is, and exactly why it's a terrible idea. I pointed to China as a prime example, and even they don't go that far.

    We know how it goes, because we've got countless examples of the government controlling the entire media. When the government controls the narrative, then lies and propaganda abound. This isn't fantasy, we have countless examples of it.

    USSR

    China

    Venezuela

    North Korea

    The Philippines

    Cuba

    Mind you, many of these didn't even nationalize everything, which is what the person was calling for. They simply nationalized some. Imagine if all the television stations in Russia were controlled by Putin and his regime...
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #168
    the first amendment as it stands is inadequate to protecting democracy in the digital age. because surprise surprise capitalism in of itself is not pro democracy.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    the first amendment as it stands is inadequate to protecting democracy in the digital age. because as it stand capitalism in of itself is not pro democracy.
    So, you want to sacrifice the First Amendment?

    Well, at least you're finally being honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    You do you cause I'm not getting into this with you again. You define words how you want to
    Nah. I define them how the dictionary does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you want to sacrifice the First Amendment?

    Well, at least you're finally being honest.
    The first amendment isn’t unlimited. Stop acting like it ever was.

  11. #171
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post





    Give me a good "for instance."

    I asked the other dude, but he ran away.
    Any country that does not have something similar to the US's first amendment.
    Shame they don't use it to go down on anti-vax bullshit that is costing a lot of lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Timmy still can get lunch, it's just not free.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Nah. I define them how the dictionary does.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The first amendment isn’t unlimited. Stop acting like it ever was.
    nor it is impossible to update or expand it's meaning, but why argue over how that's done and instead waste countless pages arguing over one person's inability to accept a narrative that diverges from theirs.

  13. #173
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, you said, "that I don't agree with him..." Nope... another dodge. I want to know exactly what YOU BELIEVE.


    I'm just not going to give you yet another irrelevant derail to waste everyone's time with. It's not relevant and was never the subject being discussed, and I'm not going to introduce it to derail this all even further. Stop trying to derail discussion.

    I am more than willing to discuss nationalization of all companies, which is what the other poster proposed. I simply pointed out just how fucking dangerous and authoritarian that is, and exactly why it's a terrible idea. I pointed to China as a prime example, and even they don't go that far.
    There's nothing about nationalisation of companies that is "authoritarian". That's just not a connection that exists.

    That's what I mean by it being a deflection.

    We know how it goes, because we've got countless examples of the government controlling the entire media. When the government controls the narrative, then lies and propaganda abound. This isn't fantasy, we have countless examples of it.

    USSR

    China

    Venezuela

    North Korea

    The Philippines

    Cuba

    Mind you, many of these didn't even nationalize everything, which is what the person was calling for. They simply nationalized some. Imagine if all the television stations in Russia were controlled by Putin and his regime...
    And counter-examples. Like the BBC in the UK, or the CBC in Canada, or PBS in the USA.

    It's almost like there's absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the two issues, despite your claims of a direct causative connection.


  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Any country that does not have something similar to the US's first amendment.
    Shame they don't use it to go down on anti-vax bullshit that is costing a lot of lives.
    Like what countries, exactly?

    Yours?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  15. #175
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The first amendment isn’t unlimited. Stop acting like it ever was.
    The First Amendment protects all speech!

    Except obscenity.
    Or libel/slander/defamation.
    Or incitement to riot or other illegal conduct.
    Or child pornography.
    Or speech entailing illegal conduct.
    Or speech that threatens another.
    Or speech that advertises falsely.
    Or broadcast that violates federal standards.
    Or speech that defrauds another.
    Or speech that unfairly uses the intellectual property of another.
    Or speech by most members of the military.
    Or speech by a prisoner.

    I could probably find more examples, honestly.


  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    [/B]

    I'm just not going to give you yet another irrelevant derail to waste everyone's time with. It's not relevant and was never the subject being discussed, and I'm not going to introduce it to derail this all even further. Stop trying to derail discussion.



    There's nothing about nationalisation of companies that is "authoritarian". That's just not a connection that exists.

    That's what I mean by it being a deflection.



    And counter-examples. Like the BBC in the UK, or the CBC in Canada, or PBS in the USA.

    It's almost like there's absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the two issues, despite your claims of a direct causative connection.
    There's your mistake. This isn't like them controlling PBS.

    Its like them controlling CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, HBO, Netflix, Hulu, Showtime, FX, SyFy, Comedy Central, the Cartoon Network, CNN, Fox News, and literally every other single station.

    Its almost as if you chose to defend the guy calling for that.

    Shit, that also means this very website.

    The fact that you cannot even say what your stance is on the issue... means you have nothing of substance to offer.

    Have a splendid day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The First Amendment protects all speech!

    Except obscenity.
    Or libel/slander/defamation.
    Or incitement to riot or other illegal conduct.
    Or child pornography.
    Or speech entailing illegal conduct.
    Or speech that threatens another.
    Or speech that advertises falsely.
    Or broadcast that violates federal standards.
    Or speech that defrauds another.
    Or speech that unfairly uses the intellectual property of another.
    Or speech by most members of the military.
    Or speech by a prisoner.

    I could probably find more examples, honestly.
    You are expounding on his straw man...
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    There's your mistake. This isn't like them controlling PBS.

    Its like them controlling CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, HBO, Netflix, Hulu, Showtime, FX, SyFy, Comedy Central, the Cartoon Network, CNN, Fox News, and literally every other single station.

    Its almost as if you chose to defend the guy calling for that.

    Shit, that also means this very website.

    The fact that you cannot even say what your stance is on the issue... means you have nothing of substance to offer.

    Have a splendid day.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are expounding on his straw man...
    You’re the only one building strawmen.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    nor it is impossible to update or expand it's meaning, but why argue over how that's done and instead waste countless pages arguing over one person's inability to accept a narrative that diverges from theirs.
    You mean like someone who still cannot even say how he wants the government to change those algorithms?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  19. #179
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    There's your mistake. This isn't like them controlling PBS.

    Its like them controlling CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, HBO, Netflix, Hulu, Showtime, FX, SyFy, Comedy Central, the Cartoon Network, CNN, Fox News, and literally every other single station.

    Its almost as if you chose to defend the guy calling for that.

    Shit, that also means this very website.
    You're deflecting. This isn't about their argument. It's about your argument. Which you still refuse to defend properly.

    The fact that you cannot even say what your stance is on the issue... means you have nothing of substance to offer.
    No, it means I'm not contributing to your attempts to derail. Just documenting them.


  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're deflecting. This isn't about their argument. It's about your argument. Which you still refuse to defend properly.



    No, it means I'm not contributing to your attempts to derail. Just documenting them.
    This is their argument, and you are still trying to defend it.

    I'm not derailing, I'm talking about the topic and the thread.

    The other dude wants to nationalize all those things. I simply highlighted why it was a bad idea.

    Have a splendid day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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