New EULA - Cheating and Toxicity

[kamuimac]

what i find more interesting is this bit,

diminishing the game experience for other players, or disrupt operation of Blizzard’s Platform in any way i wonder if leaving other peoples keys coz you want m+ score is covered under this??? would be interesting if it was

so now we can report all scrubs who play like garbage and are diminishing our game experience thus forcing us to leave keys

great change then !!!!!!!

[Lochton]

PR stunts galore. WoW isn't even worth botting anymore, let alone playing legitimately.

Yeah, because that is totally the truth.

/s

[Empower]

Hopefully this can apply to people leaving M+ keys.
I wont hold my breath.

I would burn the heavens themselves to catch you in the flames. I will never be a slave to a three hour clearing group in denial.

[Cæli]

It doesn't matter. If you put a lock on your door, and someone breaks it, does it matter if they kick in the door, use a crowbar, or drive a car through it?

Come on, for once, think before you whine. Blizzard shouldn't have to spell out what they mean in exacting detail.

yeah and in that example blizzard doesn't state that you shouldn't "break a lock on your door". they just say "methods not authorized" without details. that can include, breaking a lock, yawning, or doing a push up, it would be nice to know, you know, just so you can respect the expected rules. are mmo keyboards cheating? is drinking coffee a cheat because it gives you more concentration over someone who didn't? is taking notes cheating? they say literally nothing and the idea of banning anyone for things not told is beyond ridiculous. how hard is it to explain what they don't want the players to do

[Sangris]

What a stupid paragraph. "Toxic behavior" is highly subjective and now you can easily get banned because some snowflake's feelings are hurt.
Aside from that, the word "toxic" is so ridiculously overused that it has lost its meaning anyway.

[Biomega]

What a stupid paragraph. "Toxic behavior" is highly subjective and now you can easily get banned because some snowflake's feelings are hurt.
Aside from that, the word "toxic" is so ridiculously overused that it has lost its meaning anyway.

While true in principle, a document like the EULA doesn't in any way tell you what the ENFORCEMENT of offenses will look like. It merely provides them with grounds to enforce whatever they choose to enforce.

For example, "harassment" was always against the EULA, and similarly subject to a very wide interpretative scope. But what Blizzard chose to action was only a very tiny amount of cases.

In much the same way, sure you can be "toxic" now for all sorts of reasons and it's technically against the EULA - but that doesn't mean Blizzard will actually do something about the guy who called your spec idiotic, or the guy who left your M+ after ninjapulling, or the guy who's purposely wiping to mechanics in LFR to grief people. They COULD, but that doesn't mean they WILL.

Is that a reason to be concerned? Only for people who're habitually testing the limits of social behavior. If you feel it's necessary to be abrasive and inconsiderate because "muh freedum" then perhaps you're at greater risk; for the vast vast VAST majority of players, nothing will have changed at all. I don't expect this to lead to massive waves of bans or warnings against people who leave M+ groups or whatever either, simply for the reason that enforcing this would be so impracticable and labor intensive Blizzard wants nothing to do with it.

[MoanaLisa]

... I fail to see how this is worth getting riled up over in either direction.

It's the EULA, most people will happily ignore it until they step over the line, then they're completely flabbergasted as to why they're being punished. Source: Every single post where someone's been banned.

All true. These changes in the EULA shouldn't bother anyone that isn't being an asshole in game.

[GreenJesus]

All true. These changes in the EULA shouldn't bother anyone that isn't being an asshole in game.

But assholes can also perceive other people being assholes for punishing their bad behavior since they aren't self aware. "You kicked me for going afk for 25 minutes? Toxic elitists! I'm reporting you!"

[crakerjack]

Is it considered toxicity if I’m forcing suggestions onto others who underperform? In pugs I’ll go over logs and gauge how everyone is playing. If someone’s ilvl parse is low, I’ll focus on what they’re doing and find out what they’re doing wrong. I’ll whisper them a few changes they can make. Most of the time people appreciate it, but other times people ignore me or respond back with some snarky comment.

Could I report the people who underperform and don’t care about playing better? Wouldn’t that be considered toxic behavior to join a raid, underperform and not care that you’re a burden on the raid? Seems like toxic behavior to me.

[VinylScratch]

what i find more interesting is this bit,

diminishing the game experience for other players, or disrupt operation of Blizzard’s Platform in any way i wonder if leaving other peoples keys coz you want m+ score is covered under this??? would be interesting if it was

It's a nebulous term so they can apply it in a myriad of ways which concerns me. While it would make sense to punish genuinely negative gameplay like leaving keys a couple pulls in I'm more concerned this is going to get stretched so broadly that stating someone isn't doing necessary DPS for a fight is going to get you actioned. Nebulous wording when it comes to what someone can enforce is really bad because it's easy to call anything as fitting that bill if it's vague enough and almost always is applied so liberally that it leads to nobody wanting to do anything that could be remotely out of line.

We have this problem on XIV where toxicity is treated with a very broad reading. If you mention a player doing bad damage and allude to a damage meter you can get punished. If you give someone advice unsolicited and they feel it was offered in a condescending manner they can report you, this is why nobody in the game gives advice unless you expressly ask for it just because that can happen and has in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

But assholes can also perceive other people being assholes for punishing their bad behavior since they aren't self aware. "You kicked me for going afk for 25 minutes? Toxic elitists! I'm reporting you!"

That's the other thing nobody wants to really talk about. There are such things as the toxic fringe of casuals, they definitely do exist and in a lot of ways are even more hostile than your run of the mill elitist prick. Look at the WoW general forum, there's a lot of self described casual players there but they are horribly aggressive toward anybody who believes in things like prestige rewards. In my opinion I'd describe toxic casuals are more insufferable than toxic elitists. Elitists just say you're bad but can't tell you why, they just know they think you're bad and can be ignored easily. Toxic casuals get incredibly sanctimonious and almost always have to frame the discussion as how you're an asshole, you should be ashamed or just quit playing the game because you're not welcome, how you're the fault of everything wrong in the community, being far more toxic in the process but think because they're casual they can't be toxic. Or they think you're the anti-Christ so anything bad they say to you isn't bad because it's justified because doing bad things to bad people doesn't make you a bad person or your actions bad apparently.

Hell, look at the kind of shit the people who viscerally hate Asmongold say about the guy and their main reason for hating him is "He's an asshole" yet they're telling the dude they hope his mother suffers because he's a piece of shit person or trying to get him banned from Twitch and undermine his livelihood because "he spit on me in a video game."

[arkanon]

All true. These changes in the EULA shouldn't bother anyone that isn't being an asshole in game.

What if a player is under-performing in a raid, and the raid leader links the dps meter and says "look mate, your dead last on every attempt and well below whats required here, im replacing you" and said player gets offended and considers the raid-leader to be an asshole and reports them for being toxic. What should happen here? I dont consider that being an asshole, but what if the person being kicked does?

[Couchpotato2013]

this doesn't mean anything, what is "not authorized by blizzard"?
blizzard gives no details, just a few examples, imagine in real life having to respect a rule when you don't know the rule and the police can lock you down for any arbitrary reasons
that's blizzard for you

It’s the typical “conduct unbecoming” catch—all rule. Usually said rules are made in response to chronic unchecked emergent behavior that they have been too slow to correct/stamp out. And thus at any point when something like it comes up they can just point to that.

I saw recently on the US forums in response to a green poster about CS changes (yeah not a blizz employee) why the vague language the bs they supplied was because giving exact definitions of bad behavior would facilitate people dodging around it.

Hated this bs when I first encountered it in an organization at university (not a greek organization). 100+ years of shenanigans from students creates a jaded/deaf response from the higher ups. Sort of felt like a latter age pirate since all the poor behavior by earlier generations left very little wiggle room (like I came under scrutiny like 1-2 times without even intentionally being a bad team player, just by not upkeeping to certain standards of performance). And here’s the funny part, not knowing the rules to the letter wasn’t valid defense either.

Sad to see many platforms these days do the same thing. Punish the person/s doing it, don’t create draconian laws/rules as an upstream preventative. You just make people more mad.

[Tronski]

what i find more interesting is this bit,

diminishing the game experience for other players, or disrupt operation of Blizzard’s Platform in any way i wonder if leaving other peoples keys coz you want m+ score is covered under this??? would be interesting if it was

It could be, definitely should be, but even if it is, we all know they aren't gonna enforce it anyway.

Regardless, it's in true Blizzard spirit that they try to limit toxicity through arbitrary rules rather than altering the sources of toxicity, though.

[Clozer]

What's the point of this EULA update? They already banned people for griefing/toxicity. This whole thing is completely pointless?

[Hablion]

What if a player is under-performing in a raid, and the raid leader links the dps meter and says "look mate, your dead last on every attempt and well below whats required here, im replacing you" and said player gets offended and considers the raid-leader to be an asshole and reports them for being toxic. What should happen here? I dont consider that being an asshole, but what if the person being kicked does?

What is to stop the Raid Leader from having said player reported and banned for "diminishing the game experience for other players" since this part is so vague it could very well fall under that category. I know it would be stupid for someone to do this, but vagueness can do strange things.

[Echocho]

Well, trouble with toxicity is that it's open to highly subjective interpretation.

Not really. Just don't be an asshole and you're fine

- - - Updated - - -

Could I report the people who underperform and don’t care about playing better? Wouldn’t that be considered toxic behavior to join a raid, underperform and not care that you’re a burden on the raid? Seems like toxic behavior to me.

If you report people who don't perform in a way that is satisfactory to you then you can definitely get banned for toxicity that's correct.

[arkanon]

What is to stop the Raid Leader from having said player reported and banned for "diminishing the game experience for other players" since this part is so vague it could very well fall under that category. I know it would be stupid for someone to do this, but vagueness can do strange things.

I guess this was my point - when things are so subjective, it leaves it open to abuse at worst, and confusion and uncertainty at best. Now obviously if you even have to ask yourself "hmmm, is this toxic?" then its probably a good idea not to say/do that thing, but again, its so subjective. Me telling someone they are not at the standard required for the content, in my mind, is not toxic at all, and yet there are users of this very forum who claim, and have claimed, that it is. Some people have said linking a meter in raid without being asked to is toxic - they genuinely believe this.

[Echocho]

I guess this was my point - when things are so subjective, it leaves it open to abuse at worst, and confusion and uncertainty at best. Now obviously if you even have to ask yourself "hmmm, is this toxic?" then its probably a good idea not to say/do that thing, but again, its so subjective. Me telling someone they are not at the standard required for the content, in my mind, is not toxic at all, and yet there are users of this very forum who claim, and have claimed, that it is. Some people have said linking a meter in raid without being asked to is toxic - they genuinely believe this.

Very few actions are viewed as toxic by the general population, mostly it's speech that's associated with toxicity.

Being bad at the game isn't toxic. Verbally assaulting someone who is bad is toxic.

[arkanon]

Very few actions are viewed as toxic by the general population, mostly it's speech that's associated with toxicity.

Being bad at the game isn't toxic. Verbally assaulting someone who is bad is toxic.

Do you consider telling them their performance is not acceptable and replacing them to be toxic? "@echocho your dps is not acceptable for this content, we are replacing you". is that toxic?

[arkanon]

If it stops there, that's fine, that's not even in the 'toxic' realm. But we all know what is really being talked about here, as much as some are wanting to try to deflect it, condone it, and/or justify it.

If you like to scream at people in text to feel better about yourself, well, that's your problem. Don't make it random player's issue. Then none of this will apply, eh?

So those who DO consider it toxic, and have spoken about how it's toxic on this forum are wrong? If so, how do you feel qualified to say they are wrong?