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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    What numbers are we talking about? Do some people come back? Sure. But, it's not expansion launch levels, not even close.
    You do know people are sick of Shadowlands, right? There is a difference between stopping after a good experience and stopping cause the game sucks.

    I mean when you need a content release to be "the king" again, that means you are not under normal circunstances. What makes you think the tourists will stick around this time? King for 2 weeks when launching new content? Cope.

    You really don't understand why people left WoW in droves and if you think a new patch is all that's needed to bring them back... oh how wrong you are.
    Ah yes the 'people left in droves' 'wow is dying' narrative, my favorite. You have no proof WoW has been overtaken by FF and you can only speculate on it. People come back for every patch, that is a fact reflected in information Blizz has put out. Many players are cyclical patch players now and guess what happens when the next patch comes out. Oh yeah, people will come back and play it for a time.

    I love the use of 'cope' as you then butcher how the term is even intended to be used. I'm not the one trying to make bullshit claims and jump through hoops to try and push a false narrative.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Believe what you want.

    I can log into any FF server and it's packed in towns, in the gold saucer, in bozja. Delubrum reginae raid in gangos (48man) pops queue in 2 minutes.
    Oh and by packed i mean in the order of 50+ players.

    Meanwhile in korthia there are like 10-15 players doing rares, in Oribos 10-20. LFR 30m to 1 hour queue.

    It funny to say things if you dont actually play both games and see.

    I can't say conclusively cause i don't have official numbers but the in-game experience is pretty telling.
    The only thing you can conclude from this is how reliant WoW is on phasing and how it ruins your experience (mine as well btw)
    I mean... Korthia is fucking empty most of the time, yes.
    But I can go to the new weekly world boss at any time of the day and find a full raid of 40 players in like 3 seconds.
    At least I never had to actually "search" for that. I go there whenever I want - and 1 second later, I'm in a full raid.

    A weekly thing - you can do once per character.

    So it's not like there aren't a ton of players always playing and doing stuff.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Let us compare how big WoW is in size, how much content there is how divided the player base is, how many servers does FF and how many World of Warcraft?
    There is a reason WoW hold records and still hold those today. It basically created the MMORPG genre and it will take it with it.

    In-game experience, as i said before. that is impossible to decide.

    My server alone has standard nearly 100 people in goldshire, now i imagine 90% server swap into eachother, i bet if we didnt had phasing then each city hub or town hub will have easily over 1000 people there. (Can FF pull that off?)

    Even if we base info off websites that have no clue at all if their stats are true, we still see that FF has like 2.2M active players and WoW is at 3.5M (Even though WoW is at its worst ever... still 1Mill far ahead of FF)

    Shows you who the real king is.
    Bolded is nothing but a completely inaccurate, history re-writing nonsense. The MMORPG genre existed long before World of WarCraft. What World of WarCraft did was refine and modernize the genre for mass audience appeal, but it did not "basically create it." If you want to be technical and very specific, the MMORPG genre dates back to MUDs, as the very first offerings took a lot of inspiration from that, like Ultima Online and EverQuest.

    World of WarCraft is certainly the most successful MMORPG, and despite everything else, is still the king of the genre. But basically creating the genre? It did not do that, at all.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    BTW which YouTuber or streamer has been going on about "cope" recently? You can barely move on this forum without people regurgitating the word.
    Right? It is like buzzword central lately. 'Cope' 'Pulling the Ripcord'. People can't think for themselves anymore.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post

    My server alone has standard nearly 100 people in goldshire, now i imagine 90% server swap into eachother, i bet if we didnt had phasing then each city hub or town hub will have easily over 1000 people there. (Can FF pull that off?)
    I don't know what this point is trying to measure. Are we using Goldshire because it's a low level area? or a popular hangout.... I think I last logged onto FFXIV and saw 100+ people in Limsa around the teleport and then 40-60 in the Adventurer's guild in Ul'dah alone.

    I don't quite understand why goldshire is worth mentioning.... quick look around Durotar/Silverpine/barrens on my server had like 9 players... But I don't think Wyrmrest is a popular server for general play anymore as most the guilds I use to know moved elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Even if we base info off websites that have no clue at all if their stats are true, we still see that FF has like 2.2M active players and WoW is at 3.5M (Even though WoW is at its worst ever... still 1Mill far ahead of FF)
    This is a bit weird atm..... up to September 2021 changing as we go...

    WoW active player count from one site: 2.2m
    FFXIV's from same people 2.7m


    The daily chart is pretty interesting. I don't know how accurate they are yet but at this point I think
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Shows you who the real king is.
    I mean yeah... the king is the one that can afford to make bad decisions for years, and people still act like it's going alright. Just look at Nintendo. Hasn't really won any of the console wars this decade but still going strong for the next decade because they got that pre-electric gaming money and a couple IP older than the people lining up to run the businesses.


    edit:

    I am not trying to saw any game is dying or that one is becoming the new king or whatever. That argument is bullshit. I would like to highlight however that it's beyond silly how some people want to argue one game is on top... like Twitch views or player count in a region... Goldshire for example isn't a required leveling area and isn't even in a default starting region anymore. Likewise trying to equate s region like whatever Thanalan or shroud to it will fall flat because the leveling design of THAT game doesn't adhere to the same sort of leveling path.

    edit2:

    also The current "king" as people like to post... only sees it's "king" worthy spikes of interest on major patch updates and then drops down to levels that are respectable for other games shortly after as everyone shifts into raid/reset log mode because, lets face it... we aren't all spamming 15+ keys and cycling through arena/rated BG's and hell most the altaholics have been driven off by Anima and renown.

    edit3:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    It basically created the MMORPG genre and it will take it with it.
    teach me to not skim things... MMORPG were in existence for upwards of a decade prior to WoW being made predating the warcraft RTS release.

    While WoW might be MANY players first experience with MMO's that is not proof that WoW created the MMORPG genre.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-09-21 at 03:54 PM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Let us compare how big WoW is in size, how much content there is how divided the player base is, how many servers does FF and how many World of Warcraft?
    There is a reason WoW hold records and still hold those today. It basically created the MMORPG genre and it will take it with it.

    Shows you who the real king is.
    I wouldn't say created more along the lines of refined.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    I wouldn't say created more along the lines of refined.
    The whole MMORPG genre would never had been so huge if it wasnt for WoW.
    WoW did not create it, but almost sure did with the fact how much they managed to change the whole field.

    And they still profit for it today, the main reason WoW is still standing. Any other game would have had died by now if they pulled what Blizzard did.
    But their fanbase is so loyal. That is something no other game can compare to, even FF. the fanbase there is not forever, let us wait 4 years and see the sub count of WoW and FF14. I wanna bet that WoW is still around same sub amount (if not better if Blizzard get their shit togheter) and let us be honest here, does any of us expect FF to have more then 1M active pple? Not even. (in 4 years time)

    WoW will always fall as the KING of MMORPG, no game can hold what WoW pulled off.
    If FF14 can pull 12,000,000 active subscribers like WoW could, then it can take the crown. They don't even have 25% of that.
    Last edited by Gimlix; 2021-09-21 at 03:55 PM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    The whole MMORPG genre would never had been so huge if it wasnt for WoW.
    WoW did not create it, but almost sure did with the fact how much they managed to change the whole field.
    Translation"

    "Wow didn't create the genre... but it did"

    Which is an incorrect way of understanding things
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    And they still profit for it today, the main reason WoW is still standing.
    The reason being that at one point a bunch of people enjoyed the experience and kept at it for a decade. It swooped in when the main games fucked themselves over and profited and did well for a solid 5-8 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Any other game would have had died by now if they pulled what Blizzard did.
    literally any game would die trying to do what wow is doing currently... this isn't some esoteric secret hidden from the world. There's a Steve Jobs quote floating around explaining why shit like this happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    But their fanbase is so loyal.
    So are apple customers... that doesn't make Apple a good product

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I wanna bet that WoW is still around same sub amount (if not better if Blizzard get their shit togheter) and let us be honest here, does any of us expect FF to have more then 1M active pple? Not even. (in 4 years time)
    Wow hasn't been able to climb back to it's wrath peak... unless you want to lump in overseas numbers on a totally different system that AREN'T subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    WoW will always fall as the KING of MMORPG, no game can hold what WoW pulled off.
    If FF14 can pull 12,000,000 active subscribers like WoW could, then it can take the crown. It's not even at 25% of that amount.
    Look... wow can't even pull off 12m active subs with a modern day xpac launch. I don't know what world you live in to think this is possible.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    edit2:

    also The current "king" as people like to post... only sees it's "king" worthy spikes of interest on major patch updates and then drops down to levels that are respectable for other games shortly after as everyone shifts into raid/reset log mode because, lets face it... we aren't all spamming 15+ keys and cycling through arena/rated BG's and hell most the altaholics have been driven off by Anima and renown.
    Not sure you can call those levels "respectable for other games" when only one (two? I guess with OSRS) other games have managed to actually reach them outside of launch window. When a game that is "dead" or currently "terrible and not worth playing" is, in its dead state, still (using your posted data) only 20% behind a game that is at just below its all time high in the middle of a multi-year upswing... that is just more evidence of the gap isn't it?


    Like if Usain Bolt has the flu and runs his worst time ever for the 100m dash, and some other runner comes along and runs his best time ever and beats that worst time by a bit, does Bolt really stop being the "king"? Isn't that just proof he is? That for others to even compete he has to be doing very poorly?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    It basically created the MMORPG genre and it will take it with it.
    LOL. You cannot be serious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Bolded is nothing but a completely inaccurate, history re-writing nonsense. The MMORPG genre existed long before World of WarCraft. What World of WarCraft did was refine and modernize the genre for mass audience appeal, but it did not "basically create it." If you want to be technical and very specific, the MMORPG genre dates back to MUDs, as the very first offerings took a lot of inspiration from that, like Ultima Online and EverQuest.

    World of WarCraft is certainly the most successful MMORPG, and despite everything else, is still the king of the genre. But basically creating the genre? It did not do that, at all.
    I miss MUDs and then basically the visual mud itself EverQuest. Was never too big on UO but it was fun for a time. But damn MUDs/EQ was my jam.

    Hell even some MUDs might be inspired by BBS games like Legend of the Red Dragon.

  11. #231
    Since the maps on FF14 is a maze I think Sonic All Stars Racing takes the bucket.
    Remember that it is a person you are talking too & not a toilet, just like sane & grown up people do irl.

  12. #232
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post

    WoW active player count from one site: 2.2m
    FFXIV's from same people 2.7m


    The daily chart is pretty interesting. I don't know how accurate they are yet but at this point I think
    Mmo population pulls its numbers out of thin air you can cross reference it with official reports like the FFxiv investor reports to see that it’s just making up numbers.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    This is a bit weird atm..... up to September 2021 changing as we go...

    WoW active player count from one site: 2.2m
    FFXIV's from same people 2.7m
    Think that site and many like it have been debunked in the past. That one used to report dead MMOs (as in shut down) as still having players. Either way if you go to that website's about section you see this gem.

    "It's virtually impossible to work out accurate subscriber counts for MMOs today, and this site cannot do that. However, there does exist a need for people to be able to gauge the activity, growth, decline, and popularity of MMOs.

    So, we do it based on reddit subscriber information. We track the current subscribers, active users and history of both. This helps you to choose an MMO that has the required "activity" you'd like to see, or perhaps you are just interested."

    And then it also says: "Of course the data is not extremely accurate, or in many cases, accurate at all. There is no way of really getting MMO subscriber numbers today."
    So that site is about as accurate as me saying Bless Online has 5 million players or 0 players like that website claims. Total bullshit website.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    The whole MMORPG genre would never had been so huge if it wasnt for WoW.
    Dude you can't know that. You don't have an alternate Earth to go look at. WoW was also the beneficiary of timing in how the internet was getting more widespread at the time.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Not sure you can call those levels "respectable for other games" when only one (two? I guess with OSRS) other games have managed to actually reach them outside of launch window. When a game that is "dead" or currently "terrible and not worth playing" is, in its dead state, still (using your posted data) only 20% behind a game that is at just below its all time high in the middle of a multi-year upswing... that is just more evidence of the gap isn't it?
    I only used those links because the poster wanted to point out relative player counts that are different. They said WoW was at 3m which might be more accurate before some details flared up at Activision Blizzard.

    I personally have thought that people use player count as a metric in a very weird way ever since WoW blew up back in TBC/wrath and reached it's peak 12m figure.

    A few million active players within a timeframe might be enough to make a game seem alive enough. I don't know anymore. I go and check Runescape and see 100k active players currently logged on and then jump to activeplayer.io and see wow listed with 60k.. I personally think we have a case where WoW is sitting there with a loyal fanbase... but way too many people thinking the crowd indicates quality in the product and that's just not there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Like if Usain Bolt has the flu and runs his worst time ever for the 100m dash, and some other runner comes along and runs his best time ever and beats that worst time by a bit, does Bolt really stop being the "king"? Isn't that just proof he is? That for others to even compete he has to be doing very poorly?
    And yet we're still here with people trying to use the old top score in the prime of it's life as the metric to measure everything else when the one that made the score can't even achieve it.

    Note the use of the 12m count in another post.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Mmo population pulls its numbers out of thin air you can cross reference it with official reports like the FFxiv investor reports to see that it’s just making up numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Think that site and many like it have been debunked in the past. That one used to report dead MMOs (as in shut down) as still having players. Either way if you go to that website's about section you see this gem.

    "It's virtually impossible to work out accurate subscriber counts for MMOs today, and this site cannot do that. However, there does exist a need for people to be able to gauge the activity, growth, decline, and popularity of MMOs.

    So, we do it based on reddit subscriber information. We track the current subscribers, active users and history of both. This helps you to choose an MMO that has the required "activity" you'd like to see, or perhaps you are just interested."

    And then it also says: "Of course the data is not extremely accurate, or in many cases, accurate at all. There is no way of really getting MMO subscriber numbers today."
    So that site is about as accurate as me saying Bless Online has 5 million players or 0 players like that website claims. Total bullshit website.
    I only view that data as value with comparison between those two subjects because it's the same source reporting.

    I don't follow any WoW information regarding their player counts since they shifted to MAU's where one person can be regarded as 1*n where n is the amount of blizzard games you play.

    I do find that data to be a bit more relevant than... say... my server's head count at the goldshire inn vs Ul'dah's head count at Waking Sands or whatever a town hangout is over there.

    edit:

    forgot... twitch streams was also a metric used among other things that are not related to development or actually playing the game.

  15. #235
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I only view that data as value with comparison between those two subjects because it's the same source reporting.

    I don't follow any WoW information regarding their player counts since they shifted to MAU's where one person can be regarded as 1*n where n is the amount of blizzard games you play.

    I do find that data to be a bit more relevant than... say... my server's head count at the goldshire inn vs Ul'dah's head count at Waking Sands or whatever a town hangout is over there.

    edit:

    forgot... twitch streams was also a metric used among other things that are not related to development or actually playing the game.
    Mmo population is literally made up numbers
    Even twitch streams or people in gold shire is better as those numbers are at least real even if they give no actual insight.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I doubt that. WoW has always dominated any MMORPG when it comes to viewership and activity. it is just easy standard to see how popular it is to other games.
    WoW is as much fun to watch as FF is. So both are boring.

    WoW still has triple its viewership. and when it launches a new expansion it surpasses 1.000.000 views. while FF cant even get to 100k .
    B-B-But muh totally evil and greedy streamers

    Funny how you said (in another thread) that a lot of youtubers not streaming WoW anymore isn't really a big deal, but now you bring streaming #s as if they were really representative of popularity.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I only used those links because the poster wanted to point out relative player counts that are different. They said WoW was at 3m which might be more accurate before some details flared up at Activision Blizzard.

    I personally have thought that people use player count as a metric in a very weird way ever since WoW blew up back in TBC/wrath and reached it's peak 12m figure.

    A few million active players within a timeframe might be enough to make a game seem alive enough. I don't know anymore. I go and check Runescape and see 100k active players currently logged on and then jump to activeplayer.io and see wow listed with 60k.. I personally think we have a case where WoW is sitting there with a loyal fanbase... but way too many people thinking the crowd indicates quality in the product and that's just not there.
    I mean, for one thing probably don't use a website whose sources for game populations are statista (a website that just makes vague guesses about numbers) and steamcharts (a system that has nothing to do with wow).

    But two, a crowd has nothing to do with quality, but is a very good indication of how much people are enjoying a thing. Twilight is a poorly written book series but a lot of people enjoyed it. Personally I think that, story aside, FFXIV's development quality is shockingly low for the amount of people who play it. But I'm not going to pretend it isn't an enjoyable game. I didn't enjoy it, but clearly people do or they would not be playing it.

    And yet we're still here with people trying to use the old top score in the prime of it's life as the metric to measure everything else when the one that made the score can't even achieve it.
    But it can. Shadowlands had the best sales of any expansion.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I only view that data as value with comparison between those two subjects because it's the same source reporting.

    I don't follow any WoW information regarding their player counts since they shifted to MAU's where one person can be regarded as 1*n where n is the amount of blizzard games you play.

    I do find that data to be a bit more relevant than... say... my server's head count at the goldshire inn vs Ul'dah's head count at Waking Sands or whatever a town hangout is over there.

    edit:

    forgot... twitch streams was also a metric used among other things that are not related to development or actually playing the game.
    Are you fucking kidding me? That site is no more accurate than me creating my own website and making fake numbers and slapping it on there. I even linked you to the about page where they flat out say the numbers are NOT ACCURATE. Holy fucking shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I only used those links because the poster wanted to point out relative player counts that are different. They said WoW was at 3m which might be more accurate before some details flared up at Activision Blizzard.
    The site MAKES UP NUMBERS. Your links are 100% worthless. Jesus.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me? That site is no more accurate than me creating my own website and making fake numbers and slapping it on there. I even linked you to the about page where they flat out say the numbers are NOT ACCURATE. Holy fucking shit.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The site MAKES UP NUMBERS. Your links are 100% worthless. Jesus.
    It is so easy to get somewhat real numbers. Combined with simple math, if you know what I am talking about (the math behind extrapolation) you have a 98% accuracy with the data delivered from steam alone.
    FF is undeniable already going down in players again in a somewhat fast pace. We are already at a roughly 15% loss of players after the first month after hype. Still a plus to what has been before the hype. But the number of player loss is growing.
    Surprised? I am not.

  20. #240
    Who really cares which is the 'king'? Having both games exist and do well is what everyone should be hoping for, as they can compete and hopefully learn lessons from each other (much like FF learned some things from WoW back in the day).

    One of the main reasons WoW is declining doesn't have anything to do with FF, but that the game and development has completely lost its way. As someone said earlier, what WoW did to gain insane popularity levels over a decade ago was that it was the first MMO designed for the masses, where the MMO's before it catered more towards more hardcore players. Currently, WoW design focuses way too much on the more hardcore players versus making a game for the masses, all while not borrowing or learning from other games anymore.

    If you want to give WoW the king title in the first couple of expansions, that's fine. However, I would also say that it has tossed away its crown and the throne remains empty, as it is no longer the king it once was. Doesn't mean anyone has to sit on the throne, it just means that no one can actually claim the throne. At this point, WoW is a petty politician at best, where they think they're ultimately superior to those it rules over, and that any complaints with their ideas is someone else's fault while gaslighting their population about the state of things. This politician refuses to learn any real lessons, as doing such things is beneath them, and they'll give their population crumbs to assuage their outrage as they know most of them will forget when distracted long enough. I could keep making analogies as to how they behave and tend to treat their staff, but I think the analogy is good enough as is.

    Simply put, I don't care if there is a king nor who it is; independent of all of this king talk, WoW has some serious issues that it needs to fix, and it's still on the path of being its own worst enemy... and as long as people don't keep holding their feet to the fire or get bought off or forget, they'll never rise again.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2021-09-21 at 05:53 PM.
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