Do you think Alterac's remnants and the Defias Brotherhood should join the Horde?

[OwenBurton]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? By that reasoning, Alterac was an actual former Horde ally in the Second War, their assistance was invaluable during their conflict. As there was literally no bad blood between the two sides, I'm not sure why the Syndicate is even hostile to Horde players. And the Defias seeks to destroy Stormwind, the Alliance's strongest kingdom -- and they hated Varian and his monarchy as much as most of the Horde did. If you remember the Deadmines on the Horde side, the only problem the Horde had with Vanessa's plan to bomb Stormwind was that her plan was poorly devised and carried out against the Alliance, not that they disagreed with her.

The Defias plan to finish their Juggernaut and use it to lay waste to Stormwind. It is a noble cause any true orc warrior would embrace without a single thought!

Vanessa's fault lies in her execution of their plan. The ship is poorly constructed, the crew practically untrained, and, worst of all, there's a worgen in their midst!

His name is Admiral Ripsnarl, and he must be mercilessly slain in the name of the Warchief. Lok'tar ogar! It's a shame that he was both a human and a worgen. Had he been a proud orc warrior I'd have liked to charge into battle alongside such a fierce combatant. We can speak of ill-fated desires another day. It is time to take what is ours from the enemy.

The Shattered Hand has laid mostly quiet for years now. No more! You will be the instrument of our rebirth, <name>. Slay the Defias Kingpin and commandeer her ship for the Horde! We will outfit it as a proper orc warship and use it to finally lay waste to Stormwind

Any survivors will spread word of our unstoppable power across all of Azeroth, and all will tremble before our might! Go now, VanCleef's death will be your greatest triumph yet hero.

COWARD!!! Vanessa VanCleef is a dirty human coward! How dare she flee from battle against the Horde and leave her unworthy subordinate to fight!

<Kagtha composes herself.>

No matter. Her ship is reward enough. The citizens of Stormwind will bear first hand witness to our awe inspiring power using a ship made in part by the very architect of their city!

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._Kingpin#Horde

I mean, literally an entire race of Lordaeron humans are loyal to the Horde, and their princess Calia and Derek Proudmoore, Crown Prince of Kul Tiras also, and the Fogtail Freebooters helped fight for the Horde against their own people in the Fourth War:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fogsail_Freebooters

So why don't the Syndicate remnants of Alterac, together with Vanessa and the Defias Brotherhood try to ally with the Horde? If you remember the dungeon, the trolls are the ONLY Horde race absent, they apparently now accept members from all the other core races of the Horde, so there are no racial hostilities preventing their Horde membership. I mean, don't they still have genuine and lasting grievances against the Alliance, especially Stormwind, for destroying their peoples and livelihoods? Remember how the blood elves fairly easily turned against the Alliance, even after Quel'Thalas was allied with the humans for thousands of years?

From Alterac's perspective, they merely wanted to survive, to protect their homes and families, against overwhelming and uncertain odds -- even in our world, I can envision some governments aligning themselves with alien invaders if they were to attack this planet tomorrow, to ensure their survival. Perhaps they believed that some humans surviving was better than none. And perhaps their relations with the other kingdoms even before the invasion were never that friendly -- the Alliance probably killed more of their population ultimately than the orcs did, ironically enough. I do not necessarily agree with their betrayal, but I think it is arguably understandable, the Alliance only very barely managed to triumph against the Horde, and that was due to their internal fracturing rather than any real military advantage. And from the Defias, one need point only to the elitist and corrupt House of Nobles appointing Turalyon as a sign of their lingering immense influence in Alliance politics, perhaps Turalyon is listening daily to their counsel even now. There was no attempt from the Alliance governments to assist the ordinary working-class people who became hardened Defias members during the Cataclysm, nor did Varian seem to ever truly address their legitimate grievances.

So why can't Alterac / the Syndicate and the Defias under Vaneesa theoretically form an alliance of convenience with the Horde?

P.S. In the interests of faction fairness, of course, if Alterac / Defias humans are made playable eventually, or even if they just quietly join the Horde in the background, the Alliance would also likely receive something in return. But at this moment, I'm just not sure what exactly.

[Venziir]

I simply can't imagine, that there are still any survivors left honestly. With both Forsaken, ogres, dwindling resources, Horde and Alliance adventures attacking constantly and what not, attacking and killing both Syndicate and Defias members left and right.

[Rockefellah]

After so many years lore wise there isn't much left of either remnant group - had this been in Vanilla era, or perhaps with the Cata revamp, it would have been a great addition to have a Human Horde faction who opposes the Human Alliance faction. The Alterac humans could be in similar fashion to the Kul Tiran humans - slightly changed looks and feel. They would however lack a proper capital - as that is in ruins. Did they flee underground? Is there an underground criminal empire city in the Alterac mountains?

How would thees Alterac humans interact with Ravenholdt? With the undead Lordaeron citizens? With the Gilnean Worgen? With their new troll allies (who are of a different tribe then their enemies) etc. etc. All of these questions would lead to interesting dynamics!

[sighy]

The Horde would need some heavy rehabilitation, as a threat to anything other than itself ultimately, while the void left in Lordaeon after Sylvanas bailed could lead to a resurgence of the Syndicate I'd be concerned that they end up about as well off as the Horde San'layn, where they're just punching bags to be dispatched by the Aliance and contribute nothing outside of memes about human potential.

[Feanoro]

Sure, why not? The modern Horde is somehow a family despite being composed of peoples that should hate each others' living guts, why not add humans that suddenly love them some orcs?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Alterac has no reason to join the Horde. A small contingent of idiots betrayed their country and sided with the genocidal savages who ravaged humanity, including the vast majority of Alterac's population. Every single human kingdom hates the Orcs and the people of Alterac are no exceptions. Besides, Stromgarde annexed what remained of Alterac and is a part of the Alliance (though often forgotten in lore because Stormwind is the only human kingdom the writers remember, much like how the Bronzebeards are the only dwarf clan the writers remember).

The Defias Brotherhood also absolutely hates the Horde, more than they hate Stormwind. The Defias Brotherhood lived in Stormwind and Westfall. You know, places that got raped by the Orcs? Kicking off the entire rebuilding of Stormwind thing in the first place?

[StationaryHawk]

Alterac has no reason to join the Horde. A small contingent of idiots betrayed their country and sided with the genocidal savages who ravaged humanity, including the vast majority of Alterac's population. Every single human kingdom hates the Orcs and the people of Alterac are no exceptions. Besides, Stromgarde annexed what remained of Alterac and is a part of the Alliance (though often forgotten in lore because Stormwind is the only human kingdom the writers remember, much like how the Bronzebeards are the only dwarf clan the writers remember).

Stromgarde did not annex Alterac. Thoras was disputed by both Terenas and Genn, who instead wanted to place a new ruler on Alterac's throne. As far as we know, no decision was made before the Alliance splintered.

[OwenBurton]

Alterac has no reason to join the Horde. A small contingent of idiots betrayed their country and sided with the genocidal savages who ravaged humanity, including the vast majority of Alterac's population. Every single human kingdom hates the Orcs and the people of Alterac are no exceptions. Besides, Stromgarde annexed what remained of Alterac and is a part of the Alliance (though often forgotten in lore because Stormwind is the only human kingdom the writers remember, much like how the Bronzebeards are the only dwarf clan the writers remember).

The Defias Brotherhood also absolutely hates the Horde, more than they hate Stormwind. The Defias Brotherhood lived in Stormwind and Westfall.

Perhaps. But the blood elves were of the Alliance - yet they loyally serve the Horde to this day, not even the efforts of Alleria and Vereesa, two prominent members of the Windrunner family, were able to sway them otherwise. The point being - interests and priorities change. Sometimes very quickly.

Why would Alterac and the Defias hate the Horde? We are not sure if most of their families were directly harmed by the Horde, it's possible some were from other kingdoms, or that they escaped the regions during the First and Second War, we cannot be certain.

I want them to evolve, not have the old and static role as the random human NPCs in several old Vanilla regions that are permanently hostile towards both factions - which in itself is strange. Would Anduin not forgive the Syndicate and the Defias if they repented and rejoined the Alliance? They have not as of yet - which is interesting - either he refused to reach out to them, or they refused to rejoin their kin. For that matter, I'm not sure how the Syndicate even exists, or why it is so independent, given the presence of two major superpowers next to their borders, and both of whom are their enemies. Which is all the more reason they should abandon their neutrality.




Even aesthetically, they would fit the Horde quite well, not unlike the blood elves -- as would their very personal experience of being marginalized, betrayed and oppressed by powers beyond their control.

[username993720]

I thought so too, until the Laughing Skull clan (from AU Draenor), the betrayers on the Horde side in the Second War, joined the Horde alongside the Mag'har.

So, while they weren't the MU betrayers, i think it hints that Alteraci would go to the Alliance.

[Combatbutler]

No wipe them out, one less Human group to poison the narrative with their presence.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Perhaps. But the blood elves were of the Alliance - yet they loyally serve the Horde to this day, not even the efforts of Alleria and Vereesa, two prominent members of the Windrunner family, were able to sway them otherwise.

The Blood Elves most certainly do not loyally serve the Horde. The Horde has been nothing but bad news for the Blood Elves for the entire duration of their tenure. They've been forced to send troops to die for zero gain for Quel'thelas. Lor'themar and Aethas mutter under their breath working with the savages.

[Rhlor]

alterac was part of the horde en WC2

[Skirdus]

Ah yes, because nothing says "shaky, unmerited armistice" like the war criminals accepting even more war criminals into their ranks

[Ardenaso]

not Syndicate but the Blackthorn Bandits who helped Sylvanas and then the Ravenholdts, and then perhaps Master Ryson's group who are implied to have deserted the Syndicate; and of course the Fogsail Pirates

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also the Alliance got the Horde's most popular race so the Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return otherwise it will be extremely unfair

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The Blood Elves most certainly do not loyally serve the Horde. The Horde has been nothing but bad news for the Blood Elves for the entire duration of their tenure. They've been forced to send troops to die for zero gain for Quel'thelas. Lor'themar and Aethas mutter under their breath working with the savages.

I thought Lor'themar saying Lok'tar Ogar in Shadows Rising some recent story would be a reconfirmation of his loyalty to the Horde

[username993720]

also the Alliance got the Horde's most popular race so the Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return otherwise it will be extremely unfair

Horde got Nightborne. That was the exchange.

[Lord Pebbleton]

...what kind of BS reasoning is that, about attacking Vanessa as horde? Is that an actual quest text in the game? So, instead of taking advantage of a situation and an unexpected ally against the enemy faction, you slaughter the entire freaking faction in order to steal a ship?

I would rather make peace with Stormwind than have allies like that, lol

[Ardenaso]

Horde got Nightborne. That was the exchange.

and it's not anything like the Night Elves; the only thing they have in common is purple skin

[Combatbutler]

I thought Lor'themar saying Lok'tar Ogar in Shadows Rising some recent story would be a reconfirmation of his loyalty to the Horde

Loyal to his people first and foremost, as it should be. The horde comes after that, then we have third parties like the Alliance, dalaran etc.

[Ardenaso]

Ah yes, because nothing says "shaky, unmerited armistice" like the war criminals accepting even more war criminals into their ranks

I prefer the term "outcasts banding together"

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Loyal to his people first and foremost, as it should be. The horde comes after that, then we have third parties like the Alliance, dalaran etc.

well yeah; I mean like him and his people for the Horde

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Even if they may not be fond of the other kingdoms I doubt that alteraci would be fond of undeads more than of their living brethren, and the Syndicate has made it clear that they aren't going to be friendly with the orcs and even less the Forsaken.

Also with everything that happened in the region I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of Alterac's population went south to Stormwind to flee from the Syndicate which is surely not liked by the smallfolk, the Scourge and the Forsaken much like Lordaeron's survivors. It's also not impossible that those who didn't agree with Aiden Perenolde's cowardly and despisable actions and fought alongside Stromgarde's army to stop the Horde reinforcements to Capital City may have gotten a pardon or better treatment than the others.