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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    if Ner'zhul shot out the Frostmourne from his Frozen Throne and Mal'ganis intended to bring Arthas right straight to the Frostmourne, how did the Guardian even come across it?
    Yeah, as Super Dickmann said the whole scenario is weird in WC3 as is, even ignoring the entirety of the rest of the universe.

    If ner'zhul threw the blade out, why is there a pretty pedastal with a warning? Did he have his minions go and make it seem like some heroic quest to trap arthas? Was he that convinced arthas wouldn't take the pedastal's warning seriously?

    Was the guardian working for someone else? Revenants are already some weird undead-elemental hybrid thing that are immune to the lichking's control even in WC3 lore (wow seems to have made them mostly just fancy elementals and made them mostly irrelevant in wrath).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    Sadly for you, it's canon and therefore we can theorycraft all we want.
    Except it's been outright stated in the story that it's an elemental.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #23
    why would it be a _rogue_ mawsworn? i always got the impression he was following orders.

    he is there to keep the wrong person from finding the sword. there are several warnings to not pick up the sword for your own good, the guardian being one of them. the warnings are good enough to scare any sane person off, but the brainwashed and manipulated person intended to pick up the sword would just see those warnings as an invitation and confirmation the sword is what he needs to kill malganis.

  4. #24
    The Patient Puxycat's Avatar
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    Wasn't the last words of the guardian "we defend you from the blade not the blade" ? It can't be that they worked for Jailer because they were litteraly trying to keep off people to get hands on that cursed blade. But for who or what I do not know and would like to know too in the old WC story way not SL bullshit.
    A very cool signature text.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except it's been outright stated in the story that it's an elemental.
    kinda weird for an elemental to have an undead tag (damaged by Holy Light/healed by Death Coil/immune to Disease Cloud)
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    kinda weird for an elemental to have an undead tag (damaged by Holy Light/healed by Death Coil/immune to Disease Cloud)
    Looking them up their lore even in WC3 is that they are undead souls who are 'bound to elemental spirits' that are immune to Ner'Zhul's domination of undead. So they're both elemental and undead which gets murky in a strict classification system.

    The warcraft RPG and WoW seem to treat them as elementals that served the old gods, their warrior-like form based on them being well, soldiers.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    You just made up a scenario to get mad at them about? lmao.

    Ok.
    It isn't a "made up scenario" though. There was a great deal of talk early during WC3:R development about the story getting some retcons "fixes" in order to better accommodate many storylines from WoW. That was going to include brand new VA as well as additional cinematics, but at some point the budget was just cut down (and/or terribly misallocated, who knows) , so we ended up with WC3 Refunded.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    I mean look at this


    Edit: I can only find a picture of The Guardian that I can use, I can't find anything for the proper Mawsworn model I want to use
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=176953/m...ities;mode:lfr
    plus some of the weapons from Santum of Domination somewhat resemble the mace and shield The Guardian wielded
    It's a revenant. The idea of Mawsworn wasn't invented yet back then. The Maw didn't exist. The Jailer didn't exist. The Shadowlands didn't exist.

  9. #29
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Remember kids. When trying to have a villain be the mastermind behind everything, don't fuck it up by ignoring facts from the previous games/stories
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except it's been outright stated in the story that it's an elemental.
    It's not that big of a stretch to have death elementals. Although I like tying old threads into new stories, I think massive ret cons really undermine the original lore. Screw what they did with the Jailer.
    RETH

  11. #31
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except it's been outright stated in the story that it's an elemental.
    Retcons are a thing.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Guardian is one of those bits that didn't make much sense in the OG game at all and has continued to be poorly explained since. Who is he? Why is he there? Frostmourne isn't an ancient weapon and this place a sacred cavern of some kind that merits some magical guardian, it's a setup and the sword's been there for a few years at most. Is the Revenant a plant who's only warning Arthas away as a form of reverse psychology? The pedestal warning of a curse is also pretty nonsensical since the whole thing was placed by Ner'zhul deliberately and leaving that bit out would make it a bit easier. Luckily it doesn't really matter to the narrative but it's still a bit weird.

    That said, this particular solution doesn't really help solve this plot problem. Sure, the visual design is similar, but the Mawsworn are stuck in the Maw and even if the Blue Man ultimately didn't want Arthas to get the sword since he was unhappy with Ner'zhul's usurpation (and Ner'zhul himself), he neither had any way of knowing this nor a way to get one of his agents out of the Maw to do so. The idea that the Guardian was planted by Ner'zhul to create a false sense of danger is the most plausible solution, much like the rumors of the sword itself were planted to get Muradin's attention, if still kind of naff.
    I think it is reverse psychology, i also think that the guardian was also being manipulated, whoever ordered the guardian to be there told him that his duty was to prevent ANYONE from taking the sword, that way it would look real that someone was trying to stop Arthas and that would make arthas to try even harder to get the blade.

  13. #33
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    So much rage over Shadowlands, jesus. Nothing was ruined.


    OT: I don't think there is a defenitive answer but if you want plausibility, its again just another test for Arthas.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Puxycat View Post
    Wasn't the last words of the guardian "we defend you from the blade not the blade" ? It can't be that they worked for Jailer because they were litteraly trying to keep off people to get hands on that cursed blade. But for who or what I do not know and would like to know too in the old WC story way not SL bullshit.
    Arthas: "Still trying to protect the sword are you?"

    Revenant: No. Trying to protect YOU, from IT...

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    It's not that big of a stretch to have death elementals.
    As a matter of fact, there are bona fide death elementals, seeing as how 'decay' is now a full fledged element on its own.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Retcons are a thing.
    And this hasn't been retconned...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    I think it is reverse psychology, i also think that the guardian was also being manipulated, whoever ordered the guardian to be there told him that his duty was to prevent ANYONE from taking the sword, that way it would look real that someone was trying to stop Arthas and that would make arthas to try even harder to get the blade.
    Yeah, like I said I think that's the most plausible option, but it's still an extremely tortured arrangement of the plot. Ner'zhul sending the sword out at random into an equally random cavern, then sending a minion after it, then having it or other minions add a warning on a pedestal, all as reverse psychology on the proviso that, as @Myradin says, Arthas would not be self-aware enough to be affected by these warnings is very obtuse.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-09-25 at 09:43 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Arthas: "Still trying to protect the sword are you?"

    Revenant: No. Trying to protect YOU, from IT...
    Mawsworn are tortured souls unwillingly turned into soldiers. The guardian might have been planted here by the Jailer to deter the unworthy, but the tortured soul it used to be could still let out some glimpses of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Looking them up their lore even in WC3 is that they are undead souls who are 'bound to elemental spirits' that are immune to Ner'Zhul's domination of undead. So they're both elemental and undead which gets murky in a strict classification system.

    The warcraft RPG and WoW seem to treat them as elementals that served the old gods, their warrior-like form based on them being well, soldiers.
    Well, I'd rather stick to that old piece of lore as long as it's not retconed.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Retcons are a thing.
    ok but then why to try and fit things together in the first place?

    why go back and look at the elemental and say "couldn't that have been a mawsworn all along" as if that connects something old to something new in a way that makes sense, when we have to also look at other info and go, "well I guess that has to retroactively be changed in order for things to fit together". They why try and connect them in the first place? Might as well just leave it the way it is, because it doesn't fit together anyway.

  20. #40
    Warchief Shadowspire's Avatar
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    if we're making theories.

    it's a soul that was devoured during its theft from the shadowlands.
    when nerzhul shot it out the soul broke free and resigned itself to guard people from getting it.

    no major retcon, fills in this mystery being, explains further why it was there.

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