Is it possible the Guardian of Frostmourne was a rogue Mawsworn

[orderchaos]

if we're making theories.

it's a soul that was devoured during its theft from the shadowlands.
when nerzhul shot it out the soul broke free and resigned itself to guard people from getting it.

no major retcon, fills in this mystery being, explains further why it was there.

except you would still have to retcon the fact it was an elemental

[Shadowspire]

except you would still have to retcon the fact it was an elemental

blizz changes some creatures typings all the time.
also i'd say a spirit molded around metal(earth) and moves via wind could be counted as a elemental,or seem like one to arthas at the time.

[orderchaos]

blizz changes some creatures typings all the time.
also i'd say a spirit molded around metal(earth) and moves via wind could be counted as a elemental,or seem like one to arthas at the time.

that's not the point

you are jumping from "no retcon made" to "who cares they retcon things all the time"

do you read your own posts?

[Shadowspire]

that's not the point

you are jumping from "no retcon made" to "who cares they retcon things all the time"

do you read your own posts?

creature type changing is something that changes without most people noticing.
as well I said Arthas could have thought it was a elemental spirit so it came up as a elemental,more so since in Wotlk,the cave is literally filled with wind elementals.

[Raetary]

Pretty sure it was just a Revenant.

[Nerovar]

It isn't a "made up scenario" though. There was a great deal of talk early during WC3:R development about the story getting some retcons "fixes" in order to better accommodate many storylines from WoW. That was going to include brand new VA as well as additional cinematics, but at some point the budget was just cut down (and/or terribly misallocated, who knows) , so we ended up with WC3 Refunded.

Thank God they didn't get to butcher the story as well.


On topic: It's an elemental. The inscription on Frostmourne's pedestal was also written in Kalimag, the language of elementals. The similarities are only there because this model was originally supposed to be the model for the Death Knight hero and the Maw is just stolen Death Knight aesthetics.

The Jailer wasn't behind the Legion. His forces infiltrated and manipulated the Legion.

Intelligence organizations exist for every major country in the world. All (to some extent) doing a bit of manipulation & infiltration of other countries. It doesn't mean they are "behind" that country. They are just *an* influence.

Hardly "just an influence" when your agents are the ones that lead to the corruption of Sargeras and the creation of the Burning Legion.

[Super Dickmann]

Thank God they didn't get to butcher the story as well.


On topic: It's an elemental. The inscription on Frostmourne's pedestal was also written in Kalimag, the language of elementals. The similarities are only there because this model was originally supposed to be the model for the Death Knight hero and the Maw is just stolen Death Knight aesthetics.

There isn't much to butcher in this case. It's one of the few things Blizzard have wisely not bothered to try to explain as no matter what elements new or old you add on it works best as a mood piece and gameplay tool, rather than any kind of element of the plot. The twist on the motif of a prince finding a magical sword in the stone + the need for a neutral boss fight in the way of the sword for the mission is what counts, as a story beat it's nonsense. It hinges on Ner'zhul chucking the keystone of his plan into the middle of the wastes where its guardians are a completely unrelated party who carefully craft an aesthetically appropriate pedestal with a warning that 99% of people can't read.

[Syegfryed]

There isn't much to butcher in this case. It's one of the few things Blizzard have wisely not bothered to try to explain as no matter what elements new or old you add on it works best as a mood piece and gameplay tool, rather than any kind of element of the plot. The twist on the motif of a prince finding a magical sword in the stone + the need for a neutral boss fight in the way of the sword for the mission is what counts, as a story beat it's nonsense. It hinges on Ner'zhul chucking the keystone of his plan into the middle of the wastes where its guardians are a completely unrelated party who carefully craft an aesthetically appropriate pedestal with a warning that 99% of people can't read.

Come on, you are not giving then the credit they deserve, they can butcher anything

i was 100% expecting then to retcon the orc campaign saying grom came in, burning trees(only using the fire coming out of his eyes) and eating night elves babies, and only then theu attack him.

[Super Dickmann]

Come on, you are not giving then the credit they deserve, they can butcher anything

i was 100% expecting then to retcon the orc campaign saying grom came in, burning trees(only using the fire coming out of his eyes) and eating night elves babies, and only then theu attack him.

They digitally edited him being from being called Grom to being called 'GROMMASH' in full every time, with the reading taken from the same voice clip in every single fucking line, which was quite enough story changes regarding Grom for me.

[Nerovar]

There isn't much to butcher in this case. It's one of the few things Blizzard have wisely not bothered to try to explain as no matter what elements new or old you add on it works best as a mood piece and gameplay tool, rather than any kind of element of the plot. The twist on the motif of a prince finding a magical sword in the stone + the need for a neutral boss fight in the way of the sword for the mission is what counts, as a story beat it's nonsense. It hinges on Ner'zhul chucking the keystone of his plan into the middle of the wastes where its guardians are a completely unrelated party who carefully craft an aesthetically appropriate pedestal with a warning that 99% of people can't read.

I wasn't talking about that part of story in particular but more referring to the general idea of "lore upgrades" that make WC3 more compatible with WoW's totally-not-retcons that have accumulated over the years.

In regards to this particular story: If I recall correctly, back in WC3 we didn't yet know how Frostmourne got there. We only knew it was related to Ner'zhul (who possibly created it) and that he channeled his will through the blade. WC3 itself also doesn't mention the language of the inscription (that was Rise of the Lich King iirc). I always assumed that the pedestal was just some sort of spell that was supposed to contain Frostmourne. So there's not really any issue with that story beat if you look at WC3 in isolation.

[Caerule]

While it is an interesting observation, there was no way out of the Maw at the time.

It's more likely this was yet another case of the Scourge imitating the things found in the Shadowlands. Most of the Scourge is based on Shadowlands archetypes after all.

[Super Dickmann]

I wasn't talking about that part of story in particular but more referring to the general idea of "lore upgrades" that make WC3 more compatible with WoW's totally-not-retcons that have accumulated over the years.

In regards to this particular story: If I recall correctly, back in WC3 we didn't yet know how Frostmourne got there. We only knew it was related to Ner'zhul (who possibly created it) and that he channeled his will through the blade. WC3 itself also doesn't mention the language of the inscription (that was Rise of the Lich King iirc). I always assumed that the pedestal was just some sort of spell that was supposed to contain Frostmourne. So there's not really any issue with that story beat if you look at WC3 in isolation.

Most of WC3 works totally fine in isolation and didn't really need changing. There are some parts that the MMO is better about, like the night elf-blood elf relationship for instance or the orcs not all being reskins of the Author's OC who're perfunctory to the overall plot. Those however aren't relevant to the enjoyment of the RTS by itself, where both elements work and I also don't trust the writers not to make a dog's breakfast out of such changes. I am upset they sold a bugged skinpack with terrible shading without custom campaigns or working ladder at full price, but that horse is so dead it's part of the sediment.

As for the plot beat itself, you're right, the Kalimag thing is from Wrath/Rise of the Lich King, as are revenants being elementals and the saronite in the cavern. This wasn't in WC3, in WC3 the inscription and the Guardian weren't explained and the story wisely didn't waste its time explaining logistical bullshit in favor of focusing on the meat and theme of the story. The warnin being there at all, as is the LK letting the sword that is the crux of his plan get guarded by what were at the time independent undead is dumb. It also doesn't matter as compared to Arthas' reaction to the warning and what it says about where his character has gone by that point. If they later decide to say that they were actually put there by Yogg or that the Guardian and the pedestal were part of a set with Frostmourne or what have you is thus also irrelevant, so long as the plot beat regarding Arthas doesn't change.

Which is why all of the above is moot but Muradin being alive was bullshit, but beside the topic.

[Raamm]

Mawsworn yeah rogue idk? Maybe Frostmourne works like Thor's axe it amplifies existing power so the Jailer has the Mawsworn there was a test to make sure that someone adequately powerful would acquire the blade?

[Piamonte]

Yeah, like I said I think that's the most plausible option, but it's still an extremely tortured arrangement of the plot. Ner'zhul sending the sword out at random into an equally random cavern, then sending a minion after it, then having it or other minions add a warning on a pedestal, all as reverse psychology on the proviso that, as @Myradin says, Arthas would not be self-aware enough to be affected by these warnings is very obtuse.

i mean, he wasnt in his right state of mind at that point in the story.

[Verdugo]

It's more likely this was yet another case of the Scourge imitating the things found in the Shadowlands.

You mean another case of writers imitating the things found in Warcraft 3 for Shadowlands, right?

[Caerule]

You mean another case of writers imitating the things found in Warcraft 3 for Shadowlands, right?

Sure, if you lack any sense of immersion, and will to see the story as a cohesive whole.

You're not some genius for pointing out that the Jailer and Maw existing, and the Scourge being inspired by the Shadowlands, were not conceived yet, 20 years ago, when Warcraft 3 was being forged. This is a progressive story. Like any game, book, comic, movie or tv-show series, you'll have new information emerge about old situations, to tie into the old stuff and build upon it. Such retro-active continuity is normal.

This thread is about how a certain thing fits into the current lore. Pointing out that the current lore contains details not conceived of at the time of a previous chapter doesn't serve any purpose. Trust me, we know.

[FAILoZOFF]

No.

All this retcon jailer bullshit should be brushed under a rug and never spoken about again.

They took a giant turd on the WC3 storyline by having the jailer be behind it all. The jailer is behind the Legion. The jailer is behind the Scourge. God this lore is absolute garbage, take us back to slaying dragons

just wait for 10.0...
...find out... whos... behind... the jailer?!

[Verdugo]

Sure, if you lack any sense of immersion, and will to see the story as a cohesive whole.

I can suspend my disbelief in many cases. Blizzard writers managed to get over that limit.

This thread is about how a certain thing fits into the current lore.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but old and new lore is absolutely not reconcilable.

[Yooginava182]

You just made up a scenario to get mad at them about? lmao.

Ok.

What Scenario did I make up? The promises that they made about reforged? Lol "Wow you're mad at a company for making promises and not following through LMAO ok."

[Soon-TM]

This thread is about how a certain thing fits into the current lore.

It doesn't, that's the whole point. Hence the gargantuan amount of retcons.