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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Damn man. Now that you say it. Apart from the 'M', the name is an anagram!! holy shit! mods!
    "I'm..." the missing letters

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Would you be okay with an "Elite Mythic" Challenge-Mode raid difficulty? (Y/N/M)

    Let me explain:

    • Elite Mythic Challenge-Mode would be a 20 man raid difficulty where it scaled all gear players are wearing to a certain ilvl.
    • All raids in the game (all the way back to Molten Core to current expansion raids) would be available in this mode.
    • The trash, and bosses would be ultra hard. It would take pin point precision and coordination and several attempts to kill bosses in this "challenge" mode.
    • No "gets easier over time", it would be content that would never be removed, so players of all skills would have ample opportunity to get better and clear all challenge mode raids if they really wanted to.
    • It would be a step in the direction of making all raid content created in the game relevant at all times.
    • It could also have some sort of timed mechanic to it, as an added layer of rewarding players. So if you complete it in Bronze, Silver, or Gold times, you get better or different rewards as a result.

    The Rewards?:

    Only cosmetic, transmog items, along with mounts, pets, toys. No character power upgrades at all.

    It could be rewarded by completing a raid, by a set of raids, by expansion, by theme, etc. There could be several ways to put rewards in this system. Kill a certain number of bosses, get rewarded, kill more bosses, get better rewards, kill all bosses, ultimate rewards.
    I think all games but normal should work like this. When the gear affects the gameplay- you are basically just removing some of the challenge by getting better gear. Any game mode they want to be "challenging," should use a system like this.

    The problem is that players are not so honest about what they want.....

    PVPers claimed they want the challenge of fighting another player, not just a boring AI bot. To make PVP a skill based mode- Blizz took the gear out of pvp ad used templates. It still awarded gear- the gear wouldn't really boost players attacks in pvp, it was a boost in other modes.

    So, the pvp'ers were happy, right? They finally got to see who was the most skilled in a pure skill vs. skill competition.
    WRONG!
    They cried and cried until Blizz gave the gear back so that they could go back to ganking the undergeared players........ Which is what they actually wanted to do, they just did not want to say that......

    Players want the gear and gear that will boost their power level. They don't want the "challenge" they claim to desire. They want the gear that challenge would award, certainly. You can keep the challenge though.....

    Aside from that, your game mode would appeal only to players that have already completed mythic........... That's not a high percentage of the player base. I think less than 20% clear heroic on a reg basis.......
    How much assets are you going to pour into a game mode that only a very small percentage of the player base is likely to complete? I agree with you about the templates though. Each raid/ dungeon should have a normal mode which uses whatever gear you have equipped- then challenge modes that use templates to keep the challenge honest. You should be able to adjust the challenge so that you can increase the challenge and thereby increase the rewards.

    This game isn't about challenge though- its basically a gear treadmill. Your plan goes against the basics of the game.

  3. #23
    I think it's honestly too late. WoW is now a game focused entirely around the most recent raid, and often one in-game zone.

    Any attempt to put that old stuff back into use will be met with hostility, as it is here.

  4. #24
    Hard pass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I think it's honestly too late. WoW is now a game focused entirely around the most recent raid, and often one in-game zone.
    "Now"? It's been this way for the majority of the game's life span.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Also, challenge modes were hugely popular in MoP and WoD.
    THey weren't though. Almost nobody did them compared to m+
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  6. #26
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    Think they tried something like this for Ulduar once where there was a special reward (maybe just achievement) for completing the raid wearing only the ilevel gear you get from the raid.
    Pretty sure no one actually did it.

    It SOUNDS like a good idea, but people aren't really looking for actual challenges in this game it seems.
    People did it it was killing Algalon, but this was also due to the long period of content between the raid tier, i believed i did it between ICC and ruby shrine.

    Also this game needs to invest more resources in content it lacks not in content that is already well fleshed out, there is no lack of raids or competitive group content.
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
    ― Anthony Hopkins

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I refer you good Sir to Crucible of Storms. Yes it awarded gear but it was largely ignored by the raiding community as way too hard for what little you got, considering it dropped roughly the same loot as BoD and tuned for CE players.
    Your idea overall is done in FF14, of which I personally don't play so my opinion is to not have it in WoW.
    WoW has always been a gear loop in the raiding scene. 20 man challenge modes, no thank you.
    Well there would need to be necessary hype and build-up to the feature before its launched of course.

    Also, it would be a dream balancing scenario for Blizzard because they wouldn't have to take into consideration varying degrees of ilvl that players would be wearing. The encounters could be tuned to 1 specific item level for everyone in the raid.

    There would be world firsts for this kind of content. There would be raiding communities and hype built up to get players involved. Just like the challenge mode dungeons back in MoP and WoD, it received great acclaim and even got more people involved when they announced that the challenge mode sets would be removed.

    Maybe there could be seasons to this type of content, that if you complete the challenges during a specific season, you get exclusive cosmetic rewards based on that season, and they could even change some of the encounter mechanics from season to season to switch things up and provide variety for long run participation and involvement.

    I think this would be an amazing thing for the raiding community, and would keep all content relevant well after its introduced to the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    I think all games but normal should work like this. When the gear affects the gameplay- you are basically just removing some of the challenge by getting better gear. Any game mode they want to be "challenging," should use a system like this.

    The problem is that players are not so honest about what they want.....

    PVPers claimed they want the challenge of fighting another player, not just a boring AI bot. To make PVP a skill based mode- Blizz took the gear out of pvp ad used templates. It still awarded gear- the gear wouldn't really boost players attacks in pvp, it was a boost in other modes.

    So, the pvp'ers were happy, right? They finally got to see who was the most skilled in a pure skill vs. skill competition.
    WRONG!
    They cried and cried until Blizz gave the gear back so that they could go back to ganking the undergeared players........ Which is what they actually wanted to do, they just did not want to say that......

    Players want the gear and gear that will boost their power level. They don't want the "challenge" they claim to desire. They want the gear that challenge would award, certainly. You can keep the challenge though.....

    Aside from that, your game mode would appeal only to players that have already completed mythic........... That's not a high percentage of the player base. I think less than 20% clear heroic on a reg basis.......
    How much assets are you going to pour into a game mode that only a very small percentage of the player base is likely to complete? I agree with you about the templates though. Each raid/ dungeon should have a normal mode which uses whatever gear you have equipped- then challenge modes that use templates to keep the challenge honest. You should be able to adjust the challenge so that you can increase the challenge and thereby increase the rewards.

    This game isn't about challenge though- its basically a gear treadmill. Your plan goes against the basics of the game.
    Well the assets are already in the game. Tuning and reward structure would be the only levers they would need to pull to update the raids and make the system interesting.

    Sure, there would be many players who wouldn't participate in it, but it would be another option for content for ALL players who really want it. It also depends on how cool the rewards are. Power isn't what all players care about, but it certainly is a motivating factor to do harder content. What if the hardest content was just a challenge on skill? You were not at a disadvantage among other players because when you entered the challenge raid, your gear automatically is a specific item level that is static for every challenge raid.

    In essence, this system puts ALL players on an equal playing field, and the only determining factor to completing these raids and obtaining the cosmetic rewards is the skill of the players.

  8. #28
    Hard pass. I'd be down for 5-man at the very most. But a raid? No thanks.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Would you be okay with an "Elite Mythic" Challenge-Mode raid difficulty? (Y/N/M)

    Let me explain:

    • Elite Mythic Challenge-Mode would be a 20 man raid difficulty where it scaled all gear players are wearing to a certain ilvl.
    • All raids in the game (all the way back to Molten Core to current expansion raids) would be available in this mode.
    • The trash, and bosses would be ultra hard. It would take pin point precision and coordination and several attempts to kill bosses in this "challenge" mode.
    • No "gets easier over time", it would be content that would never be removed, so players of all skills would have ample opportunity to get better and clear all challenge mode raids if they really wanted to.
    • It would be a step in the direction of making all raid content created in the game relevant at all times.
    • It could also have some sort of timed mechanic to it, as an added layer of rewarding players. So if you complete it in Bronze, Silver, or Gold times, you get better or different rewards as a result.

    The Rewards?:

    Only cosmetic, transmog items, along with mounts, pets, toys. No character power upgrades at all.

    It could be rewarded by completing a raid, by a set of raids, by expansion, by theme, etc. There could be several ways to put rewards in this system. Kill a certain number of bosses, get rewarded, kill more bosses, get better rewards, kill all bosses, ultimate rewards.
    This could work in other games Jay but not in WoW. Everything is player power driven, the playerbase is conditioned to need it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    Think they tried something like this for Ulduar once where there was a special reward (maybe just achievement) for completing the raid wearing only the ilevel gear you get from the raid.
    Pretty sure no one actually did it.

    It SOUNDS like a good idea, but people aren't really looking for actual challenges in this game it seems.
    Thats one of the things missing from current raids, achievements you earn in the raid that increase the challenge and offer a nice reward, current raiding is just boring as its just kill bosses hope you get something nice and thats it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    This could work in other games Jay but not in WoW. Everything is player power driven, the playerbase is conditioned to need it.
    The players who would do such things dont care about power because they obtain it easily anyway, new modes wont really work but raid achiements that increase the challenge are ideal to offer an extra challenge and nice rewards.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-20 at 08:24 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Well there would need to be necessary hype and build-up to the feature before its launched of course. -snip-
    I appreciate your enthusiasm but the way I see it, Mage Tower was hugely popular and single player.
    MoP Challenge modes weren't as widely run to my knowledge, 5 players.
    Mythic Raiding is 20 people and already a very niche section of the playerbase.
    I personally play WoW and other RPGs to experience power growth. Stagnation kills it for me.
    The raid scenario as you put it has no such feature beyond memorizing the dance, which we already do.
    I for one would have no drive to engage in that content. 20man Mythic raiding already has exclusive cosmetics, titles, mounts and a small degree of bragging rights.

    I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this feature, if implemented would only attract a fraction of a small portion of the playerbase. As to the revolving affixes for the raids, that just sounds like M+ with extra steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is your fault.

  12. #32
    Mythic already requires class stacking or a lot of gear farming.. a lot of bosses already require cds at specific times or the group dies.

    You would also have to absurdly power creep earlier raids till at least cata and add extra abilities.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    snip
    It would be impossible to balance for even one expansion set of raids, blizzard cant even balance the game as it stands currently, there is no need for more raid/dungeon levels
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #34
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Sorry, but are you like so bored with current Mythic that you need to up the difficulty?
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

    "What does one life matter?"

  15. #35
    I cannot imagine that approach would work. Mythic is already a niche subsection of the game, and for those that play at that level there really doesnt seem to be many who would be interested in cosmetics as anything but purely bragging rights rewards.

    What would be an intriguing prospect is taking the rewards and putting them into something more casual, 5 players at most, more likely 3 or even 1. Make it timegated to some extent, ideally through something similar to Timewalking. Then you have a challenge that is difficult, but not so much that it requires anything like what Mythic does.

    The subset of players that want to farm cosmetics is far higher in the more casual end of the playerbase, giving it to Mythic players is like giving Bezos alms for the poor.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #36
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Would you be okay with an "Elite Mythic" Challenge-Mode raid difficulty? (Y/N/M)

    Let me explain:

    • Elite Mythic Challenge-Mode would be a 20 man raid difficulty where it scaled all gear players are wearing to a certain ilvl.
    • All raids in the game (all the way back to Molten Core to current expansion raids) would be available in this mode.
    • The trash, and bosses would be ultra hard. It would take pin point precision and coordination and several attempts to kill bosses in this "challenge" mode.
    • No "gets easier over time", it would be content that would never be removed, so players of all skills would have ample opportunity to get better and clear all challenge mode raids if they really wanted to.
    • It would be a step in the direction of making all raid content created in the game relevant at all times.
    • It could also have some sort of timed mechanic to it, as an added layer of rewarding players. So if you complete it in Bronze, Silver, or Gold times, you get better or different rewards as a result.

    The Rewards?:

    Only cosmetic, transmog items, along with mounts, pets, toys. No character power upgrades at all.

    It could be rewarded by completing a raid, by a set of raids, by expansion, by theme, etc. There could be several ways to put rewards in this system. Kill a certain number of bosses, get rewarded, kill more bosses, get better rewards, kill all bosses, ultimate rewards.
    How do you make it so that it never gets easier over time if tool kits change all the time, not just the numbers/scaling

    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    No one would do this content

    I would because power gain is useless in WOW and boring but cosmetics are forever and these sounds like they would be high quality and special.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalocy Jim View Post
    Would you be okay with an "Elite Mythic" Challenge-Mode raid difficulty? (Y/N/M)

    Let me explain:

    • Elite Mythic Challenge-Mode would be a 20 man raid difficulty where it scaled all gear players are wearing to a certain ilvl.
    • All raids in the game (all the way back to Molten Core to current expansion raids) would be available in this mode.
    • The trash, and bosses would be ultra hard. It would take pin point precision and coordination and several attempts to kill bosses in this "challenge" mode.
    • No "gets easier over time", it would be content that would never be removed, so players of all skills would have ample opportunity to get better and clear all challenge mode raids if they really wanted to.
    • It would be a step in the direction of making all raid content created in the game relevant at all times.
    • It could also have some sort of timed mechanic to it, as an added layer of rewarding players. So if you complete it in Bronze, Silver, or Gold times, you get better or different rewards as a result.

    The Rewards?:

    Only cosmetic, transmog items, along with mounts, pets, toys. No character power upgrades at all.

    It could be rewarded by completing a raid, by a set of raids, by expansion, by theme, etc. There could be several ways to put rewards in this system. Kill a certain number of bosses, get rewarded, kill more bosses, get better rewards, kill all bosses, ultimate rewards.
    I think it would need to be scaled to 10 man not 20 man. It was hard enough work organising people for challenge dungeons in MoP, organising 20 people for challenging cosmetic-only content would be ni-impossible.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    No one would do this content
    A lot of the remaining player base of wow are actually people who enjoy challenging content. Most of the "casual" players have already left for FF14.

  19. #39
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Damn man. Now that you say it. Apart from the 'M', the name is an anagram!! holy shit! mods!
    Actually it’s an anagram of "I’m Jaylock".
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    Think they tried something like this for Ulduar once where there was a special reward (maybe just achievement) for completing the raid wearing only the ilevel gear you get from the raid.
    Pretty sure no one actually did it.

    It SOUNDS like a good idea, but people aren't really looking for actual challenges in this game it seems.
    Herald of the Titans achievement. It actually was kind of popular when current and still had groups being formed and farming it in subsequent expacs in the heyday of OpenRaid.

    OT: Bad idea
    ~steppin large and laughin easy~

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