View Poll Results: I think that...

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  • Warlords of Draenor was the most enjoyable of the 3

    294 52.97%
  • Battle for Azeroth was the most enjoyable of the 3

    134 24.14%
  • Shadowlands was/is still the most enjoyable of the 3

    127 22.88%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    A focus on bite sized content and seasonal play, with greater rift style content, small incrimental loot increases and variations, drop in drop out / pug centric multiplayer (less guild focused). These are the things many people talk about in this context.
    You mean BC/Wrath design?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    The start of WoD was actually amazing (other than the first few days of launch where the EU servers had a lot of issues). Doing quests and dungeons was a lot of fun, building your garrison was kinda fun despite the issues this feature had later on, and my guild was a lot more active. And at least it wasn't overloaded with systems that we got since Legion. It was so much easier to just jump into raiding and PVP without doing a lot of extra chores.
    Im one of the people who has said for years that i actually quite liked WoD - i didnt fully apprecaite the hatred for the expansion until i spent some time on the forums. But i didnt "farm" the garrison - i make money IRL, not in video games - so i somewhat enjoyed even that. Later in the expansion with 15+ max level toons it was an absolute chore and very boring, swapping back and forth just to complete the basics in the garrison was fucking annoying. As far as the actual expansion, the launch was a shitshow for me at least, with crippling 5-10 hour queues etc, but after that it was enjoyable for the most part.

    It had soul, it felt like a warcraft expansion to me, while BfA and SL feel like something entirely different. This is obviously all entirely subjective, but thats how i feel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You mean BC/Wrath design?
    No, i dont.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, i dont.
    That is when what you are describing was added, though.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    That is when what you are describing was added, though.
    M+ was not added in TBC / Wrath. Its clear you are not willing to discuss this in good faith, so i will leave it at that.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    M+ was not added in TBC / Wrath. Its clear you are not willing to discuss this in good faith, so i will leave it at that.
    M+ is just iteration. I'm discussing this in good faith, you just want to pretend that a design approach a decade+ old is something new so you can be angry at new things.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    M+ is just iteration. I'm discussing this in good faith, you just want to pretend that a design approach a decade+ old is something new so you can be angry at new things.
    Im explaining the design shift being spoken about - i didnt even say if i liked the changes or not - like i said, bad faith right from the beginning.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im explaining the design shift being spoken about - i didnt even say if i liked the changes or not - like i said, bad faith right from the beginning.
    Yes, the design shift that happened in BC and Wrath, not anytime recently.

  8. #48
    The worst part of BFA/SL and why they feel far worse than WoD is due to direction. WoD has content that didn't work and they gave up on it, to move on a new direction. BFA/SL took the worst parts of Legion and took it to 11. They created a bunch of tedious systems with the intent of "fixing" them later to bring back the community to waste player time and farm MAU. Essences, corruptions, legiondaries, covenants, alts, etc. And the direction won't stop because they constantly see results (minus 9.1, which made me a bit proud of you guys)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossh View Post
    maybe BFA > WoD > SL, Shadowlands has been so incredibly bad all across the board its very hard to top this xpac. No content, No class changes, Alot of unplayable bugs, Insane amounts of grinding for player power, and on top of all this its been the worst expansion for alts by far. The thought of playing catch-up on an alt now is so daunting I don't even bother to log into them.
    Everyone has their opinion, but man...

    Imagine calling SL for "no content" and puting WoD above it.
    Imagine calling SL for "no class changes" in expac that added 52 new spells + bring back a lot of old spells above WoD (taking away shit ton of spells) and BfA (taking away most artifact spells and giving nothing in exchange).
    Imagine calling SL for "unplayable bugs" and puting it above WoD (REAL unplayable launch) and BfA (massive amount of bugs during first season).
    Imagine calling SL for "insane amount of grinding" in expac where weekly chore takes 1-2 hour at most and puting it above BfA. Not to mention whining about no content and insane amount of grinding on same breath.
    Imagine callin SL for "worst expac for alts" (I remind that whole leveling from level 1 takes max 20 hours, then you click a button and land in Korthia where gear is falling from the sky) and puting it above BfA (member essences?). Not to mention next patch make life even easier for alts and we judge rest expac from their complete state.

    I get some people can have actual arguments why they like SL less than both WoD and BfA (I give some to you: Sylvanas centric story, lore detached from old Warcraft, disjointed zones, waiting 7 month for second raid, etc.) but your post is just nonsense.

  10. #50
    Out of these three, WoD wins out, I actually liked the garrison (And not just for the free resources), the raids were less aggravating to do in LfR than they are now, alts were doable to keep up-to-date, and most specs i played felt better to play.

    It's a sad state of affairs, really, but that's how i feel about it.

  11. #51
    WoD cause classes weren't absolutely boring to play

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Please explain this design shift.
    Simplified classes that are more easy to grasp, endless grind systems like AP (paragon system from D3), reliance on endlessly repeatable content like m+ (D3 greater rifts), the heavily RNG dependent gearing systems of Legion and BfA were also clearly inspired by action RPGs like Diablo, world quests are adventure mode bounties from D3...

    There's also the whole borrowed power trend that started with Legion which made a large portion of your toolkit expansion-specific in an effort to stitch up the hole that was caused by all the pruning they did in Legion. In Legion itself it was just less noticeable because most of the borrowed power was tailor made for each spec which is probably the only reason why people are generally more forgiving when it comes to that expansion's class design.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-09-20 at 08:52 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    There were a couple design shifts, but there's two that stick out in my mind.

    First was the shift towards content being an endless grind, or rather creating artificial means to make players feel like they needed to be logged in at all times.
    People have talked about this with WoW since BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Second was starting from a fresh slate every expansion.
    The game has been designed into being more of a standalone experience mostly to get people back into the game with a free boosted character that can pick up at the start of the expansion. That said, generally, all of that fine raid gear you acquired in the previous expansion was obsolete in the next by the time you had done your leveling. This also goes way back before Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    *edit*[/B] - Wanted to add a third, since it's one that has bothered many people: The game has become more and more of a 'paid beta' as time goes on.
    Complaints about WoW being a paid beta extend back into Wrath.

    None of what you said is entirely wrong but all of it has roots that go much further back.

    EDIT: Someone mentioned borrowed power. OK. See the second point above about how all your BiS gear from the previous expansion is useless after you level in the next. All power is borrowed. It's just reskinned now. We always gave up our power when we started a new expansion. The fact that they put expansion power acquisition in differently colored fiddly opaque boxes now doesn't change anything.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-09-20 at 09:04 PM.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by baseballfan View Post
    WoD cause classes weren't absolutely boring to play
    This is probably the opposite of my take but I think it's interesting as it depends on what you play. As someone who went into WoD with Priest as main and Warrior as alt and I absolutely hated how Shadow Priest was gutted to be a dotless spec (removing the most fun aspect of it) and as Warrior I found myself using whirlwind as a filler spell in my single target rotation.

    Maybe it's just luck but I haven't felt any negative feelings near that level towards the specs I've played in BFA or SL.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    WoD. Lacked content, but the content it had was good, & gameplay was much better than the other two expansions. Also required a lot less grinding, which is a huge win in my books.

    SL second & BFA far behind.
    I totally agree.

    And I am not even joking. I'd rather have a good, fun engaging raids than grinding RNG-machinery.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    EDIT: Someone mentioned borrowed power. OK. See the second point above about how all your BiS gear from the previous expansion is useless after you level in the next. All power is borrowed. It's just reskinned now. We always gave up our power when we started a new expansion. The fact that they put expansion power acquisition in differently colored fiddly opaque boxes now doesn't change anything.
    And this is how you spot someone arguing the inherently bad faith position that is best summed up by "nothing has changed except you".

    Borrowed power in the form of gear had a negligible impact on your actual gameplay for most of the game's lifespan. It boosted your existing class kit by increasing stats and that was mostly it. These days borrowed power puts buttons on your bar and your class is literally incomplete without it. Arguing that gear is the same thing as features like e.g. Artifact Weapons (which give you an entire talent tree) is just reductio ad absurdum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Well so long as you didnt play one of the classes Blizzard abandoned to prepare for the drastic rethink they were planning for Legion... *cough*demonology*cough*
    Demonology was a very interesting and engaging spec in WoD. It was just too complicated to play which is why Blizzard nerfed it to death.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-09-20 at 09:20 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #57
    Fluffy Kitten GothamCity's Avatar
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    In my opinion, WoD suffered from a content drought, but what we did have *was good*. I quite liked Garrisons and improving my base with all my achievements. Earning my own private AH was certainly a highlight. I found all the raids to be outstanding, and none of the BFA/SL raids come close.

    BFA/SL suffer, in my opinion, from a content surplus. As someone who only wants to play WoW maybe ~7-8 hours a week, I just cannot play at the level I used to. I was a heroic/mythic raider since the difficulty split in LK, and raided Sunwell/T6 content in BC. I just cannot keep up anymore with Maw, Korthia, Torghast, M+ clears, PvP (less so in 9.1), covenants, and more. Legion/BFA were even worse with WF/TF systems and their endless AP, pigeonholing you into a single spec on a single character or else you fall behind. It's less important among Normal/Heroic raiders, but if I am going to bother raiding, I want to break myself on the hardest content or else I just lose interest. Stopped raiding in Nighthold, tried to come back a few times, just burn out. Nowadays I am playing Classic/BC and enjoying that I don't need to kill myself to remain competitive.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Simplified classes that are more easy to grasp, endless grind systems like AP (paragon system from D3), reliance on endlessly repeatable content like m+ (D3 greater rifts), the heavily RNG dependent gearing systems of Legion and BfA were also clearly inspired by action RPGs like Diablo, world quests are adventure mode bounties from D3...

    There's also the whole borrowed power trend that started with Legion which made a large portion of your toolkit expansion-specific in an effort to stitch up the hole that was caused by all the pruning they did in Legion. In Legion itself it was just less noticeable because most of the borrowed power was tailor made for each spec which is probably the only reason why people are generally more forgiving when it comes to that expansion's class design.
    But most classes are significantly more complex than they were in early expansions, and as brought up above, this refocus on repeatable bite-sized content is something that happened in BC and Wrath. I'd give you that the bonus stats on gear is more Diablo... if not for gear itself being significantly more RNG and sporadic at the start of the game. I've never had as much trouble getting an item in the past 10 years as I had trying to get malchazeen or Dragonspine Trophy to drop.

    World quests are just randomized dailies. So you're gonna have to take that up with BC also, or if nothing else MoP, the expansion that just vomited dailies at you.

    I don't... why do people think Legion was where the pruning happened? It was in MoP and WoD. It wasn't as noticeable in Legion because it had already happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    People have talked about this with WoW since BC.


    The game has been designed into being more of a standalone experience mostly to get people back into the game with a free boosted character that can pick up at the start of the expansion. That said, generally, all of that fine raid gear you acquired in the previous expansion was obsolete in the next by the time you had done your leveling. This also goes way back before Legion.


    Complaints about WoW being a paid beta extend back into Wrath.

    None of what you said is entirely wrong but all of it has roots that go much further back.

    EDIT: Someone mentioned borrowed power. OK. See the second point above about how all your BiS gear from the previous expansion is useless after you level in the next. All power is borrowed. It's just reskinned now. We always gave up our power when we started a new expansion. The fact that they put expansion power acquisition in differently colored fiddly opaque boxes now doesn't change anything.
    This. None of this crap is new, it's been the same crap people have been complaining about since the start, only now people who previously didn't care and overlooked it care a bunch about it and point it out thinking its something new.

  19. #59
    WoD, BfA, SL in that order.

    WoD didn't have me do endless routines of pointless bullshit, nor was it so blatantly stingy / greedy with gold and other things. SL feels like an unappetizing treadmill that requires so much time before it feels like you even start the game.
    Additionally i quite liked the garrison's collector / completionist / customisability aspect.

    Gear acquisition was too easy i'll admit, but it was a better answer than overinflating itemlevels and ruining pvp in the process.

    BfA was little better than SL, i just liked the theme more even if the execution was just as poor. Also the story at least had interesting parts to it, whereas now it's all nonsense and more of Sylvanas, who was already the weakest link in BfA storytelling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    These 3 expansions are the most negatively critiqued expansions I've seen in my 10 years of playing the game. Cataclysm wasn't even this badly critiqued. However, I'd want to know from the community here which is the best or "most enjoyable" of these 3: Battle for Azeroth, Shadowlands, or Warlords of Draenor.


    WoD:
    Pros: New character models, questing revamp, great raids and some of the best music of the expansions. Best and most viewed opening cinematic of all time.
    Cons: Rushed and incomplete expansion. Barely any content outside of raiding and arenas. Garrisons and the shitpyard. Over hyped to sell a terrible product. 1 patch expansion.

    BFA:
    Pros: Great cinematics. Good leveling stories for both factions. Allied races. Great in game story-telling. 2nd most viewed and 2nd best opening cinematic of all time.
    Cons: Too many stories all going on at once. Systems on top of 5000 other systems. Most grindy expansion of all time. Characters making weird 180's and taking odd directions [I.e: Sylvanas, Anduin, Saurfang, Jaina, Thrall]

    Shadowlands:
    Pros: Most casual friendly of the three. Character customization. Outstanding PvE content. Best selling expansion of all time.
    Cons: Borrowed Power. Covenants & RIPChord. Confusing story and controversial story directions. Long patches due to in company drama and COVID-19. Expansion becomes 1 year old with only 1 full patch released. Devs fighting with the players. Quickest expansion to lose the most players. Zovaal is Lucifer and Thanos copy-paste.



    Which is or was the most enjoyable for you out of these 3?

    I'm going to say..? Shadowlands. What about you?
    Also wtf SL casual friendly? Since when does casual mean "invests insane amounts of time for marginal returns" and "can't compete on any level without taking boosts, time investment or planning to a distinctly noncasual level"?

    If anything it was WoD that was genuinely casual friendly; you could participate (and participate well!) in all content without any requirements really.
    Last edited by loras; 2021-09-20 at 09:26 PM.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    But thats a problem with PvE gearing, not PvP gearing.
    It doesn't matter where the problem stems from, the solution is the same. If you wanted to optimize for raids, you did pvp.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I guess if your ideal experience of WoW is literally just parking your character in front of the raid and raidlogging exclusively then the expansion was a godsend, but for me at least it seems incredibly regressive to go from what is supposed to be a living, breathing, interractible world to one where the Garrison is essentially a lobby for the multiplayer aspect of raids.
    I'm fine with content if it's

    a) new and novel (literally only the first time you do something)
    b) challenging

    If the content doesn't fall into one of those two categories, I don't care if it exists or what it rewards, I'll hate doing it.

    To that end, wow leveling and quests are only fun once. Raids and PVP are fun endlessly, but PVP relies more on balance and class combo than I want, and the playstyle has shifted over the years to less of what I like.

    That leaves raids. M+ can hold that attention for a while, but once the enemies stop evolving and it's just "bigger numbers" it's less novel and, like PVP, the meta has more of a ruling hand there.

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