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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    The more I think about it the more it seems like everyone wins if blizzard focuses on mythic players. What do mythic players want? More dungeons and raids with decently tuned classes and nothing else.

    How does everyone else win? Simple you just scale down the content and you get easier modes of what is designed and everyone gets more then they have now.

    It isnt free mind you... such a system wouldn't tolerate choreghast, conduits, renowned, covenants , corruption and the assorted trash aimed at 80 hour a week " casuals" but I think this bold new approach might really revitalize the game.
    >Implying Actiblizzard cares about quality over time spent in game.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    >Implying Actiblizzard cares about quality over time spent in game.
    This is something im tired of going over and over - for some weird reason, when discussing wow and in particular comparing expac to expac, patch to patch, SO many people focus on how much content there was. Why are more people not talking about the quality? Isnt this really all that matters, outside of extreme droughts etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    That's quite a grind, very impressive. Running 33 alliance raids per job to upgrade all your gear should be a breeze
    Haha,,, yes. I am not sure i will do it this late into the game though, with the expansion being soon. But, i will look into doing it in the new tiers.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Copium is a strong drug. I understand.
    If you believe that Naxx back in 2006 was intended for a casual audience, you are flat out delusional.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you believe that Naxx back in 2006 was intended for a casual audience, you are flat out delusional.
    No it was designed for people who played a lot and consistently played a lot but it was not hard. Standing still or moving slightly on occasion and spamming one button doesn't get more difficult in Naxx than in MC.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    No it was designed for people who played a lot and consistently played a lot but it was not hard. Standing still or moving slightly on occasion and spamming one button doesn't get more difficult in Naxx than in MC.
    In comparison to other Classic raids, yes it was harder.
    Disregarding that if you play correctly, you didn't need to play a lot because not wiping naturally kept the consumable and repair costs down
    (which the re release has shown).

    Like seriously, it's not hard by modern standards, but it certainly was more challenging than anything in Classic and most people would have not managed to clear the raid back then, the difficulty is a factor of it whether you like that or not.

    Even the numbers in Classic reflected that, even two weeks after launch, only 20% of the guilds managed to clear the raid, despite the obvious option to cheese the raid via world buffs.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-09-26 at 07:34 PM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    This right here, go ahead, lets see if 50,000 players can sustain the game development. Increase the monthly fee to 50 dollars a month plus a requirement to buy everything Blizzard puts out in the cash shop and it just might work.
    Casual content isnt fun and thats inlcuding for casuals. Current game is most casual friendly WoW we had since its launch so dont try to pretend thats players quitung becouse cuttering to mythic players. Game is boring becouse it start cuttering to casuals and no just casuals but super casuals what do not intetnd to play mmorpg in first palce. You can finish entire game and get pretty good gear without any single player interaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    No it was designed for people who played a lot and consistently played a lot but it was not hard. Standing still or moving slightly on occasion and spamming one button doesn't get more difficult in Naxx than in MC.
    It wasnt hard in 2020. Yes it was hard back in 2004. And i have bad news for you. Gameplay and mechanical difficulty isnt only thing you should consider when you rate difficutly of content. There is way more ways how to make something difficult and gameplay is just one of many things you can make difficult. Yes beat game back in 2004 was in fact wy harder than beating game in current modern wow.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Casual content isnt fun and thats inlcuding for casuals. Current game is most casual friendly WoW we had since its launch so dont try to pretend thats players quitung becouse cuttering to mythic players. Game is boring becouse it start cuttering to casuals and no just casuals but super casuals what do not intetnd to play mmorpg in first palce. You can finish entire game and get pretty good gear without any single player interaction.

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    It wasnt hard in 2020. Yes it was hard back in 2004. And i have bad news for you. Gameplay and mechanical difficulty isnt only thing you should consider when you rate difficutly of content. There is way more ways how to make something difficult and gameplay is just one of many things you can make difficult. Yes beat game back in 2004 was in fact wy harder than beating game in current modern wow.
    Let me guess. You think guild management and farming consumables somehow makes the encounter more difficult? No you're standing still pressing a button, it was easy then and it's easy now.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It is [ social ]. All the good content is focused on playing with groups of other people, ie being social. Raids, M+, PvP.
    There is a difference between "social" and "multiplayer". Raids, M+, PvP are designed to be multiplayer. You play with others. But SOCIAL is a system that encourages actually engaging with others, talking to them, getting to know them, etc.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  10. #190
    I think it’s biggest problem is it can’t decide what it wants to be and ends up being an awkward compromise of trying to be everything, while not really succeeding at any.

    It will never be a truly mythic focused game, because not enough people care about that and their goal is to make money.

    I do think the primary devs actually want it and put the bulk of their energy into high end stuff because it’s what they care about, while they don’t give the same energy to the rest of the game.

    It’s always been like that and I dont think it’ll ever change.

  11. #191
    They should do that.

    BUT they also should implement more stuf to do that has simply nothing to do with raiding dungeons or PvP.

    Crafting for transmogs (like loooong quests and stuff like that, make it timegated sometimes like crafting was), more fleshed out Pet Battles, a BIGGER story (not cosmic bigger, just longer and less twists and turns or fake reveals) More Dungeons that have not the mythic+ tube design,

    Maybe even add a 10 man dungeon/raid without LFR or Mythic to get people to TRY PuG or Guildruns. Just basically starter gear. Not something really compettetiv. Only fur fun. bring back attunements btw

    But everythign regarding raid and dungeon endgame should be looked through the lense of mythic players. Balance. etc. less stupid power gathering to get mechanics of your class. Masterloot in 75% guild groups.

    And most off all: LESS loot over all. No purple gear below mythic 10 and normal raids. No purple gear from open world stuff. Give gear back a feeling of gravitas. Make it worth something. Make me feel like i earned something and not just flood me with items i don't give a shit about.
    Last edited by VinceVega; 2021-09-27 at 06:21 AM.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Let me guess. You think guild management and farming consumables somehow makes the encounter more difficult? No you're standing still pressing a button, it was easy then and it's easy now.
    Social difficulty, being patient, be determined, schelude difficulty and more are all valid difficulties what makes beating game harder. And if you dont understand this than you are simply not mmo and definitly not rpg player.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Social difficulty, being patient, be determined, schelude difficulty and more are all valid difficulties what makes beating game harder. And if you dont understand this than you are simply not mmo and definitly not rpg player.
    LOL. All those are made up by the Classic community in order to make the encounters seem harder than they are. They're also all part of any mmorpg raiding scene and not unique to Classic.

    The encounters are easy, that's just the way it is. I also don't understand why the community feel shame about that and lie to themselves and others about it. Classic being piss easy is one of its greatest strengths because it means that almost anyone can be part of the team, you have no skill gating at all.

  14. #194
    As a mythic raider, the game is designed around mythic raiding, isn't it?
    All the timed gating of higher power gain through empowered conduits, reputation grinds are all "nerfs" for the raid without nerfing it as it makes the progress easier fow slower guilds. All other benefit from it, too...but srsly, who cares about anything else below that is facerolled from everyone with a half brain.

    It's definetly ingame because of the world first races, too. But esepcially with 9.1 if you reach codex 6 you have a low amount of things to do to get sockets and conduits upgrades (which makes it extremely alt friendly, long ago that I could play 4 characters parallel on high M+ with optimised gear, the worst part was definetly torghast that I don't have to do anymore at all when I am not playing some new chars.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    LOL. All those are made up by the Classic community in order to make the encounters seem harder than they are. They're also all part of any mmorpg raiding scene and not unique to Classic.

    The encounters are easy, that's just the way it is. I also don't understand why the community feel shame about that and lie to themselves and others about it. Classic being piss easy is one of its greatest strengths because it means that almost anyone can be part of the team, you have no skill gating at all.
    Oh boy, I have seen some terrible shit in classic. Way too many terrible players that were way too stupid for the trash content we had there. Stuff like BM Hunters forgetting to let their pets attack even after you whisper them. You knew they wear velcro shoes IRL xD.
    Last edited by MrYesbody; 2021-09-27 at 09:00 AM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    The more I think about it the more it seems like everyone wins if blizzard focuses on mythic players. What do mythic players want? More dungeons and raids with decently tuned classes and nothing else.

    How does everyone else win? Simple you just scale down the content and you get easier modes of what is designed and everyone gets more then they have now.

    It isnt free mind you... such a system wouldn't tolerate choreghast, conduits, renowned, covenants , corruption and the assorted trash aimed at 80 hour a week " casuals" but I think this bold new approach might really revitalize the game.
    Lets focus on what works.

    Why was vanilla and the now classic so successful? SIMPLICITY. Modern WoW is pointlessly complex. Intricate quests that noone gives a fuck about, borrowed power that never makes you feel empowered, showered items that end in the vendor in a matter of seconds, the usual "re-arrange your bags" routine etc.

    I think focus should be to less pointless quests more open for all content, bigger maps to explore without suffocating, less pointless travel between maps, less borrowed power systems, more meaning in talents and specs, more class identity, more worthy sub-content.

    In general they should stop playing it safe because what they think is safe is boring. Oh and they should somehow realize that if you want to keep players online you don't give them pointless content to clock hours on because they will simply quit.
    "So yes, I'm fine with killing murloc babies" (Quote, MMOC 2021)

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Not one of the things you mentioned is remotely aimed at anyone, Pet Battles is casual content, and thats all "segregated" casual content WoW has.
    Brawler's Guild was not made for mythic raiders.
    Heroic Dungeons were not made for mythic raiders.
    Wintergrasp was not made for mythic raiders, and it isnt a world boss so you clearly dont even know what it is.
    Battlegrounds were made for casual players, as opposed to arenas which were made for hardcore players.
    Artifacts and class halls were not passive quest progression.
    Timeless Isle having catch up gear doesn't change who the target audience was. It wasn't mythic raiders.
    Daily Quest Hubs were not in the game originally. They were added, hence they are a feature added.

    It sounds like you've got a lot of weird hangups and baggage, and are just a generally unpleasant person who likes to be condescending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    LOL. All those are made up by the Classic community in order to make the encounters seem harder than they are. They're also all part of any mmorpg raiding scene and not unique to Classic.

    The encounters are easy, that's just the way it is. I also don't understand why the community feel shame about that and lie to themselves and others about it. Classic being piss easy is one of its greatest strengths because it means that almost anyone can be part of the team, you have no skill gating at all.
    Difficulty is not just mechanical difficulty. That's simply a fact. You are welcome to prioritize and value mechanical difficulty personally, there is nothing wrong with that, but to insist that it is the only kind of difficulty is as silly as saying sprints are difficult but walking 100 miles is easy because one is more mechanically intensive and the other one just takes time and commitment.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It sounds like you've got a lot of weird hangups and baggage, and are just a generally unpleasant person who likes to be condescending.
    Or, once more your game knowledge shows that you know absolutely nothing about game and talk about sentimental stuff with nostalgia induced googles covered in mud.

    Sorry to inform you mister "Wintergrasp is not a world boss" my realm first WOTLK achievement says hi, and no, i am not flexing, i am just pointing out how wrong you are once more about something you have no clue about.

    Everything you ever post makes no sense, unless you literally have been playing 2 hours per month because you are making 6 digits of income therefor your experience is so down right terrible and skewed that you somehow believe irrelevant things are any sort of "content", and targeted for a specific audience.

    I will repeat it again, Pet battles are the only "casually targeted" content, the rest are literally passive things because its a THEME PARK MMO.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-09-27 at 06:50 PM.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    I can tell you already that more people will clear Y+0 Pre nerf or Lk HC without any buffs when Classic Wotlk comes out - does this also prove that those encounters were actually pretty easy?
    Yes. Rather it proves that the easy to pickup hard to master window has moved in favor of hard to master and dragged easy with it. Fights are more bloated with shit then ever and your class is more advanced and needs more buttons.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-09-28 at 03:58 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Or, once more your game knowledge shows that you know absolutely nothing about game and talk about sentimental stuff with nostalgia induced googles covered in mud.

    Sorry to inform you mister "Wintergrasp is not a world boss" my realm first WOTLK achievement says hi, and no, i am not flexing, i am just pointing out how wrong you are once more about something you have no clue about.
    I don't know what the hell you think Wintergrasp is, but in reality it is a world pvp zone, not a world boss. I'm sure that once you realize you were confusing Wintergrasp with something else you are going to come up with some convoluted excuse for why you were right.

    Everything you ever post makes no sense, unless you literally have been playing 2 hours per month because you are making 6 digits of income therefor your experience is so down right terrible and skewed that you somehow believe irrelevant things are any sort of "content", and targeted for a specific audience.

    I will repeat it again, Pet battles are the only "casually targeted" content, the rest are literally passive things because its a THEME PARK MMO.
    Being condescending isn't a replacement for a coherent argument.

    Brawler's Guild was not made for mythic raiders.
    Heroic Dungeons were not made for mythic raiders.
    Wintergrasp was not made for mythic raiders.
    Battlegrounds were made for casual players, as opposed to arenas which were made for hardcore players.
    Artifacts and class halls were not passive quest progression.
    Timeless Isle having catch up gear doesn't change who the target audience was. It wasn't mythic raiders.
    Daily Quest Hubs were not in the game originally. They were added, hence they are a feature added.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Mythic raiders are a minority, but people need to be intellectually honest about statistics. Far more than 1% of players do mythic raids. 1% is about the number of people that get Cutting Edge.

    You can look at the number of logs on Warcraftlogs. While it isn't possible to speculate on total player numbers there or anything, there are enough logs that unless the game still has many millions of players, it's probably more like at least a quarter of players doing some heroic raiding and probably close to half at least venturing into normal (difficult to say, since normal mode raiders are less likely to log runs).

    And it's very reasonable to think that even more people try at least some m+ given that it is easier to organize.

    None of that contracts the idea that mythic raiders are a tiny minority, but they are not 1/100 players. Over time, I would also expect that % to rise because the game is self-selecting its audience. In other words, the people who stick with it are more likely to be invested, and players who are more invested are likely to do mythic raiding.
    This reminds me back when WoW Classic had just released, people were saying it would be a dead game. Lo and behold, you take 1 look at WoW Classic BWL runs and you see...

    400,000 warriors
    290,000 rogues
    250,000 mages
    170,000 warlocks
    100,000 hunters

    That's a million raiders....EXCLUDING the guilds that did NOT log.

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