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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Wintergrasp, Timeless Isle, and the Mage Tower, because the idea that Mage Tower was designed for high end raiders is delusional.

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    In fact, let's keep going: Artifacts, heroic dungeons, class halls, daily quest hubs, want to keep going?

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    Timewalking, battlegrounds... Need more?
    You realize your proving my argument not contesting it right? My whole argument is top down designing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    I know it's hard to accept because I also find it mind-boggling, but the truth is that to the vast majority of players, the story and immersion are the number 1 feature and everything else is just gravy. Like I can't even believe that a game like LoL apparently has "lore" but oodles of people care about it and the world. Without that, it would have fallen off like every other moba.
    I mean I enjoy the little side stories of LoL wow just has the most dumpster tier writing I've ever seen and I'm counting self insert smut novels.

    We are fighting thanos atm with miss " I will never serve " and Kel'thuzard...my poor boy kel'thuzard they mangled the shit out your character and story.

  2. #82
    Yes let's design it for the 0.001% of people that play it.

    Let's give people the tools to do everything in the most quick, efficient way possible, and cater to min/maxing.

    Let's ignore any lore or world building, because the only thing they will care about is how to kill a boss the quickest way and do the most damage.

    Let's not provide any meaningful choice in a role playing game, because the only role they want to fill is the one that fits the situation best at the drop of a hat.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    The more I think about it the more it seems like everyone wins if blizzard focuses on mythic players. What do mythic players want? More dungeons and raids with decently tuned classes and nothing else.

    How does everyone else win? Simple you just scale down the content and you get easier modes of what is designed and everyone gets more then they have now.

    It isnt free mind you... such a system wouldn't tolerate choreghast, conduits, renowned, covenants , corruption and the assorted trash aimed at 80 hour a week " casuals" but I think this bold new approach might really revitalize the game.
    No one cares what Mythic raiders what or think tho. Sure they get some free publicity twice a year from the world first Andy's but if every mythic raider quit they would not ever notice they few thousand people leaving. Now if every 80 hours a week casuals left? Insta dead game.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by gleepot View Post
    Yes let's design it for the 0.001% of people that play it.
    Do you honestly believe only 0.001% of players do mythic? Or are you just using hyperbole?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    No one cares what Mythic raiders what or think tho. Sure they get some free publicity twice a year from the world first Andy's but if every mythic raider quit they would not ever notice they few thousand people leaving. Now if every 80 hours a week casuals left? Insta dead game.
    Why? Are their subs more expensive? Because i would suggest the number of mythic raiders is likely much higher than these "80 hours a week casuals".
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  5. #85
    If it needs anything, WoW needs more open world content that matters. Groups form organically for challenging outdoor content, rares, etc...
    Raiding is just a lobby side-game that feels very disconnected from the game. All it does is break the, albeit lackluster, story telling by hiding parts of it in raids and/or telling it out of order, such as killing Denathrius before the Covenant stories even finished releasing.
    Some of the best interactions I've had in WoW have been from things like camping a rare or working towards spawning one that requires more than just waiting. Meanwhile, most raid groups I've been in are all about getting in and out as fast as possible and if someone messes up half the group rage quits.

  6. #86
    Yeah MMO history in general has shown many times over, in many different MMO, that catering to the "hardcore" crowd is a universally bad idea. They are both an extreme minority, and also the least loyal of any group.

    Anyone who states otherwise is speaking from a position of extreme ignorance or simply lying to themselves.

    Take WotLK : It was casual as hell. The most casual expansion so far. It had the most casual raiding scene the games ever had, hands down. And it was the most popular time of WoW. TBC and vanilla were also super casual with raiders making a minority. Most players didn't go past dungeons.

    Making "hardcore" raids is enough for raiders. They dont need to be huge, involved, or have the game designed around them. Their gear doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of anyone elses gear. Again, we know this from experience with other MMO and WoW's own history: the size of the gear difference doesnt matter, all that matters is that in some small way there is one. Likewise you dont need to make these gigantic super raids where half your patch budget is oging to just doing a raid; raiders just care about the encounter and time and time again bitch about the size and trash of raids. You dont even need a dozen encounters, a few yes, but not a massive amount. Again, this just leads to bloat and more complaints about the "Easy" fights.

    Should raids exist? Yes. For sure. Should they take a lot of the dev time? Every. Single. Sign. Points to no. There is no argument in favor of hardcore raiding having a focus that can stand on it own. Every argument for it is either outright lying, or appealing to emotion or "common sense" in some stupid way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Do you honestly believe only 0.001% of players do mythic? Or are you just using hyperbole?

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    Why? Are their subs more expensive? Because i would suggest the number of mythic raiders is likely much higher than these "80 hours a week casuals".
    You would be absolutly wrong. Its no secret that "hardcore raiders" are a minority, and always have been. The only time they had significant numbers was in WotLK, which had the easiest raiding ever. Their numbers also go up when the barrier to entry is low (so when we had for example, valor gear).

    Casual make up a SIGNIFIANTLY larger proportion of the player base than hardcore raiders. You can tell that just from looking at raid statistics, which, are very widely available.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post


    Why? Are their subs more expensive? Because i would suggest the number of mythic raiders is likely much higher than these "80 hours a week casuals".
    Hmm i would suggest you are off your meds if you think that. Raiding has never been that popular in this game. If you think mythic raiders out number your average joe then you are a wackadoodle.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post

    You would be absolutly wrong. Its no secret that "hardcore raiders" are a minority, and always have been. The only time they had significant numbers was in WotLK, which had the easiest raiding ever. Their numbers also go up when the barrier to entry is low (so when we had for example, valor gear).

    Casual make up a SIGNIFIANTLY larger proportion of the player base than hardcore raiders. You can tell that just from looking at raid statistics, which, are very widely available.
    I have played since day one, and never have i met or played with someone putting in anything close to 80 hours per week. I know a lot of mythic raiders though. How many people do you know that play over 10 hours per day, 7 days a week?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  9. #89
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Absolutely not.
    What the game desperately needs is fun and engaging content outside of M+/raids to keep people around.

    Aka, enjoyable non-competitive content.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!


  10. #90
    Designing it for mythic raiders is kinda stretching it a bit, being a mythic raider myself, what they are doing with 9.1.5 is what they should've done at the start of the expansion, but now its too late

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I recall no raider asking for a leveling revamp nor a garrison...
    Garrisons were asked for and super hyped up coming into their patch (whichever that one was)

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Yeah MMO history in general has shown many times over, in many different MMO, that catering to the "hardcore" crowd is a universally bad idea. They are both an extreme minority, and also the least loyal of any group.

    Anyone who states otherwise is speaking from a position of extreme ignorance or simply lying to themselves.

    Take WotLK : It was casual as hell. The most casual expansion so far. It had the most casual raiding scene the games ever had, hands down. And it was the most popular time of WoW. TBC and vanilla were also super casual with raiders making a minority. Most players didn't go past dungeons.

    Making "hardcore" raids is enough for raiders. They dont need to be huge, involved, or have the game designed around them. Their gear doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of anyone elses gear. Again, we know this from experience with other MMO and WoW's own history: the size of the gear difference doesnt matter, all that matters is that in some small way there is one. Likewise you dont need to make these gigantic super raids where half your patch budget is oging to just doing a raid; raiders just care about the encounter and time and time again bitch about the size and trash of raids. You dont even need a dozen encounters, a few yes, but not a massive amount. Again, this just leads to bloat and more complaints about the "Easy" fights.

    Should raids exist? Yes. For sure. Should they take a lot of the dev time? Every. Single. Sign. Points to no. There is no argument in favor of hardcore raiding having a focus that can stand on it own. Every argument for it is either outright lying, or appealing to emotion or "common sense" in some stupid way.

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    You would be absolutly wrong. Its no secret that "hardcore raiders" are a minority, and always have been. The only time they had significant numbers was in WotLK, which had the easiest raiding ever. Their numbers also go up when the barrier to entry is low (so when we had for example, valor gear).

    Casual make up a SIGNIFIANTLY larger proportion of the player base than hardcore raiders. You can tell that just from looking at raid statistics, which, are very widely available.
    If this was on the official forums I would be clicking the like icon.

    I saw on one youtube video where they compared MAUs and income for 2016 (IIRC) and the last one. Even though the MAUs had dropped in half, the income was only down a bit - about 1% (again IIRC). Thus it is most likely that the hardcore raiders were the ones who bought the most tokens so they could buy/sell gear, carries and all that. SL has been quite profitable so Blizz was quite happy to design it for these players. In fact, why would you design content for casuals who just buy their sub and the occasional mount/pet when you can design content for players who will buy lots of tokens?

    It seems to me that SL has been designed for these players and not for casuals, so it will be interesting to see what happens when so many people get their wish to have a casual-free WoW.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have played since day one, and never have i met or played with someone putting in anything close to 80 hours per week. I know a lot of mythic raiders though. How many people do you know that play over 10 hours per day, 7 days a week?
    "The people is associate with all do this thing I do so they must be a majority"

    Oh you poor thing.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  14. #94
    Mythic raiders are a minority, but people need to be intellectually honest about statistics. Far more than 1% of players do mythic raids. 1% is about the number of people that get Cutting Edge.

    You can look at the number of logs on Warcraftlogs. While it isn't possible to speculate on total player numbers there or anything, there are enough logs that unless the game still has many millions of players, it's probably more like at least a quarter of players doing some heroic raiding and probably close to half at least venturing into normal (difficult to say, since normal mode raiders are less likely to log runs).

    And it's very reasonable to think that even more people try at least some m+ given that it is easier to organize.

    None of that contracts the idea that mythic raiders are a tiny minority, but they are not 1/100 players. Over time, I would also expect that % to rise because the game is self-selecting its audience. In other words, the people who stick with it are more likely to be invested, and players who are more invested are likely to do mythic raiding.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    "The people is associate with all do this thing I do so they must be a majority"

    Oh you poor thing.
    Are you unwilling, or unable to answer the question? I will ask it in the most simple form i can - How many players do you know who put in 80+ hours per week?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Chances are that developing 'real' content (i.e. raids, dungeons, BGs, etc.) is considerably more expensive than developing one of those borrowed power systems, which are nothing but a glorified spreadsheet with some minimal additional work done for the UI.
    I would imagine the systems do take less dev time but you can do clever things. If you add a new "wing" with three bosses to an existing dungeon or raid then you can re use all the assets in that dungeon or raid to make the new wing. Making a new world boss that pops up probably wouldn't take too much dev time.
    Don't forget- those "borrowed" powers take time do. They need to be coded into the game, they have to be entered into the appropriate equations (damage strings), they need graphic interfaces, they have to be balanced, named and you have to come up with the idea for them in the first place. Those systems take time too.

    You can other things as well- add new questlines. How longs could added 5-6 quests to say Goldshire to keep the story there updated and moving possibly take?

    There are also creative things you can do. Here's an idea:

    Create a new villain- the mad mage
    The mad mage is stealing magic from Azeroth. He has caused anomolies in the ley lines. Raid boss powers are going haywire! Enter the current raid. Each boss will be assigned random powers from the other bosses in the raid. The loot tables include any piece of gear that drops in the raid, even boes. Defeat the raid and you find a portal to the mages sanctum (its 1 room) when you get there you have 20 tries to beat him (you can get 20 more by beating the raid again).

    Reverses mode- run the raid backwards! Many games had a reverse mode after you beat it.

    Mix up the raids, different bosses in diff raids. OMG! What is Sylvanus doing in the Black Temple (wouldn't you like to know....)

    There's so much you can do- it is really only limited by your imagination.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    So you took 3 paragraphs to say "Remove Borrowed Power" like every other "how to fix WoW" thread?

    Because that's already how dungeons/raids are made. They design the high-end version first then scale down and remove bits to get the easier difficulties.
    That's how some encounters are designed. What happens is they create an encounter and either add or remove mechanics to adjust the difficulties.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Are you unwilling, or unable to answer the question? I will ask it in the most simple form i can - How many players do you know who put in 80+ hours per week?
    I know one.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Are you unwilling, or unable to answer the question? I will ask it in the most simple form i can - How many players do you know who put in 80+ hours per week?
    Honestly it seems like you are arguing in bad faith here, I very much doubt the original poster meant "80 hours a week" literally. Most likely they were just exaggerating to mean the kind of players who play a lot but only do casual content, as opposed to the dudes running Mythic raids and/or M20s but calling themselves "casual" because they just log in a couple of hours a week.

    And yes, I am also willing to bet the former far outnumber the latter. Although, maybe not as much anymore... I'll admit a fair number of us switched to FFXIV.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy28 View Post
    Honestly it seems like you are arguing in bad faith here, I very much doubt the original poster meant "80 hours a week" literally. Most likely they were just exaggerating to mean the kind of players who play a lot but only do casual content, as opposed to the dudes running Mythic raids and/or M20s but calling themselves "casual" because they just log in a couple of hours a week.

    And yes, I am also willing to bet the former far outnumber the latter. Although, maybe not as much anymore... I'll admit a fair number of us switched to FFXIV.
    He knows i was just using the other guys description for a caual player. He is just being pedantic me thinks.

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