Maybe the game should be designed for mythic raiders?

[HCLM]

I can tell you of 3. GW2, FFXIV, SWTOR. It's the ones i played. I'm sure there are more.

GW2 - I said except this game. GW2 is completely different game than WoW and follows completely different principles.
FFXIV - BS. You get the best gear from raids, which are not that easy, u can't do 'casual activities' and get bis.
SWTOR - you mean that dead game? yeah let's follow example of the game that failed miserably, what can go wrong.

[Swnem]

GW2 - I said except this game. GW2 is completely different game than WoW and follows completely different principles.
FFXIV - BS. You get the best gear from raids, which are not that easy, u can't do 'casual activities' and get bis.
SWTOR - you mean that dead game? yeah let's follow example of the game that failed miserably, what can go wrong.

The other poster said close to BiS.

You can get gear 5 ivls below raid gear on Bozja, and tomestone gear 10 ilvl below from tomestones and the alliance raid. Best weapon from the relic chain. Edit: Scratch that, turns out the tome gear can be upgraded to BiS.0 So, you are full wrong.

MMO is MMO. No one specified any restrictions due to inconvenience. SWTOR has been around for 10 years and has made a billion dollar+ and still seeing support. It's a thing. It's in the top 10 mmos. It's a success. Get over it.

I mean, if you are gonna write off SWTOR has a failure and example not to follow. A game that lost about 75% population from launch.
What do you call the game that had 13m and now has 1 -2m? Glass roofs man. That is less than 10%.

[Echocho]

The other poster said close to BiS.

You can get gear 5 ivls below raid gear on Bozja, and tomestone gear 10 ilvl below from tomestones and the alliance raid. Best weapon from the relic chain.

I have a full set of iLvl 530 gear that I've gotten from tomestones and upgrade coins from alliance raids. Tomestone gear is 520 base and then you upgrade it to 530.

It's great when a game gives you many different paths to the same destination. You decide your difficulty level and time commitment and then go at it.

WoW is the only MMORPG that has a toxic "git gud" gearing system, I'm glad that I'm not playing it.

[Empower]

You said that there has never been a single feature designed for casual players that is good. I listed tons of great features made for casual players. Your response is to just say you were right, even though I proved you wrong.

You listed one...

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The game has been designed around hardcore raiders for the past 5+ years already... so it wouldnt "revitalize" the game at all, instead it would keep killing it.

Casuals outnumber mythic raiders by a long shot and have always outnumbered. Catering to the minority has never done the game any favors.

The director of the game is a hardcore raider himself... Ion was a hardcore raider pre-wow and has been the raid encounter designer for many years until he was promoted to game director, and we know what has happened since. :P

Hardcore players have nothing to do with skilled players... grinding world rare for conduits makes you hardcore. It doesn't make you any good at the game..

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I am vastly entertained by the attempt to argue that casuals are happier when the game isn't designed for them, but instead is designed for you.

Content designed for casuals might be just right for casuals, even if it's incredibly easy for you.

Except it hasn't ever happened beyond the catch up zone timeless isle with mop...

I don't get why people gloss over that point...it seems a very important point. If you design around the better players in the game you end up with quality content you can distill into easier difficulties.

If you start the other way around you tend to just get empty power systems that reward time investment over gameplay and that leads to dull content.

[potis]

I don't get why people gloss over that point...it seems a very important point. If you design around the better players in the game you end up with quality content you can distill into easier difficulties.

Which was already answered pages ago, that the game is already designed as such.

I really dont understand why this thread is kept alive by people that are just bitter ex-wives about some part of the game.

Its always the same every expansion, the average baddies finally reach "the end" of the expansion launch while refusing to participate to any actually relevant content, crying about boosts/evil community/toxic mythic raidurs and all the usual excuses since Vanilla, 4 months later than they should and the complains start flooding in, as to why the game doesnt have more irrelevant content that they should have done half a year ago either way.

[Tradu]

the game should be designed to be social. All other fixes will fail. Blizzard is just stubborn and wont do it. They will kill WoW before doing it.

It is. All the good content is focused on playing with groups of other people, ie being social. Raids, M+, PvP.

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A mythic raider is simply someone who cares about gear so much that they're willing to go through anything. The game shouldn't have more focus on gear, it should have less.

Make the best gear in the game accessible to everyone over time and let people focus on doing what they enjoy instead.

If someone wants to spam LFG all day long in order to get their weekly piece of mythic gear, let them.

Unfortunately they already can. Just do a weekly +15 for the easiest mythic ilevel piece the game has ever seen. This has been a thing since Legion.

[Swnem]

I have a full set of iLvl 530 gear that I've gotten from tomestones and upgrade coins from alliance raids. Tomestone gear is 520 base and then you upgrade it to 530.

It's great when a game gives you many different paths to the same destination. You decide your difficulty level and time commitment and then go at it.

WoW is the only MMORPG that has a toxic "git gud" gearing system, I'm glad that I'm not playing it.

Oh, there we go. I didn't even know that. Where do you go to upgrade it if you don't mind me asking?

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It is. All the good content is focused on playing with groups of other people, ie being social. Raids, M+, PvP.

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Unfortunately they already can. Just do a weekly +15 for the easiest mythic ilevel piece the game has ever seen. This has been a thing since Legion.

Uff a 15 is equal to LFR now? Cmon...

But, WoW's biggest offense to me is that it's completely random on everything. Gambler devs think players like to gamble too. :/

[HCLM]

I have a full set of iLvl 530 gear that I've gotten from tomestones and upgrade coins from alliance raids. Tomestone gear is 520 base and then you upgrade it to 530.

It's great when a game gives you many different paths to the same destination. You decide your difficulty level and time commitment and then go at it.

WoW is the only MMORPG that has a toxic "git gud" gearing system, I'm glad that I'm not playing it.

If you're not even playing the game, then go back to your basement and stop typing here. It is clear there is not a single wise thought in your broken head.

It is not about 'git gut' it is about having basic manual skill to press buttons in correct order, and minimum of creative and critical thinking to do +15 mythic dungeon and get mythic drop every week. If you can't even do that minimum you don't deserve anything better. How handicapped you have to be in real life, to struggle in video game. So sad.

[Echocho]

Oh, there we go. I didn't even know that. Where do you go to upgrade it if you don't mind me asking?

It's all in at the same desk in Elmore but different people.
You trade 3 coins (one from each alliance raid) to a guy and get an item and then you trade that item along with your gear piece to the gear vendor.
For your weapon it's a bit different, you need items that drop from the normal raid if I'm not mistaken but it's no biggie, just queue up for it.

I can't explain it better than that. I suggest googling it or looking it up on YouTube.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

If this was on the official forums I would be clicking the like icon.

I saw on one youtube video where they compared MAUs and income for 2016 (IIRC) and the last one. Even though the MAUs had dropped in half, the income was only down a bit - about 1% (again IIRC). Thus it is most likely that the hardcore raiders were the ones who bought the most tokens so they could buy/sell gear, carries and all that. SL has been quite profitable so Blizz was quite happy to design it for these players. In fact, why would you design content for casuals who just buy their sub and the occasional mount/pet when you can design content for players who will buy lots of tokens?

It seems to me that SL has been designed for these players and not for casuals, so it will be interesting to see what happens when so many people get their wish to have a casual-free WoW.

atlast some one gets it, we hardcore player make blizz way more money than a casual would ever, if i switch a guild i have to server trans 6 characters for splits/rerolls and i race change everytime fire is meta to troll and back to goblin on my main as a example i alone made blizz 6 figures in that 16 years i have played if i count in the boosting we do

[Tyris Flare]

GW2 - I said except this game. GW2 is completely different game than WoW and follows completely different principles.
FFXIV - BS. You get the best gear from raids, which are not that easy, u can't do 'casual activities' and get bis.
SWTOR - you mean that dead game? yeah let's follow example of the game that failed miserably, what can go wrong.

SWTOR might have more players in the US than wow does at this point.

But anyway, ESO is actually a very successful MM. You can get extremely completive gear solo, and there is no gear grind- all that changes between patches usually is sets and stuff. I can log in forever in gear I crafted in 2016 and still do any solo stuff with ease.

Note: I don't personally like this; I enjoy seasonal resets and "the chase." But that is different than allowing solo players to get decent gear, which WoW absolutely should if it wants to survive. Solo players who stick around for the entire patch cycle should absolutely have heroic raid gear or even higher by the time the next patch rolls around. It's not 2005

[Echocho]

If you're not even playing the game, then go back to your basement and stop typing here. It is clear there is not a single wise thought in your broken head.

It is not about 'git gut' it is about having basic manual skill to press buttons in correct order, and minimum of creative and critical thinking to do +15 mythic dungeon and get mythic drop every week. If you can't even do that minimum you don't deserve anything better. How handicapped you have to be in real life, to struggle in video game. So sad.

You're doing a pretty good job at proving the toxic elitist player stereotype so keep at it, this is entertaining to see someone so serious and humorless about a video game LOLW

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Solo players who stick around for the entire patch cycle should absolutely have heroic raid gear or even higher by the time the next patch rolls around. It's not 2005

At least someone gets it but apperantly Blizzard is fine with losing all their casual players to the competition

[Swnem]

It's all in at the same desk in Elmore but different people.
You trade 3 coins (one from each alliance raid) to a guy and get an item and then you trade that item along with your gear piece to the gear vendor.
For your weapon it's a bit different, you need items that drop from the normal raid if I'm not mistaken but it's no biggie, just queue up for it.

I can't explain it better than that. I suggest googling it or looking it up on YouTube.

It's not a worry. I got the relic weapon final step on my main jobs. Thanks for the info.

[Kralljin]

until ulduar hardmodes (not even all of them) there was not even such thing as "hardcore" raiding...

Historical revitionism at its finest.

Let's just disregard that the amount of guilds that cleared Naxx 40 back in Vanilla were like in the 3 digits.

[NineSpine]

You listed one...

Oh, you are one of those who just ignores people when they are inconvenient. I'll do it again. here are features designed for casual players that are fantastic:

Brawler's Guild
Heroic Dungeons
Wintergrasp
Battlegrounds
Artifacts
Class Halls
Timeless Isle
Daily Quest Hubs

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GW2 - I said except this game. GW2 is completely different game than WoW and follows completely different principles.
FFXIV - BS. You get the best gear from raids, which are not that easy, u can't do 'casual activities' and get bis.
SWTOR - you mean that dead game? yeah let's follow example of the game that failed miserably, what can go wrong.

I said BiS or near-Bis.

FF14, GW2, ESO, SWTOR... They all allow it.

WoW is the outlier here. WoW is the one insisting on this dated design paradigm that drives out casual players because it makes them feel like the game isn't for them. I loved playing WoW, but I don't have any interest in mythic+ or heroic or mythic raids. Where is the game for me in WoW? It doesn't exist, because I outgear all the content I actually enjoy in literally a day or two.

[Echocho]

Historical revitionism at its finest.

Let's just disregard that the amount of guilds that cleared Naxx 40 back in Vanilla were like in the 3 digits.

And how many cleared it in Classic?

Original Naxx didn't have a low clear rate because it was hard but because a fraction of the playerbase raided, and due to how long it took for a guild to get all the gear to pass all the gear checks in the game naxx could've been a mathematical impossibility. If you started raiding past a certain date you didn't have time to even get there before TBC. We also had no prior knowledge, a lot of guilds ended up in the same situation as mine where we couldn't progress past 4H, not because it was hard but because we had like 4 or 5 tank capable classes with decent gear.

"Naxx was hard" is the biggest lie in Warcraft history and Classic proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[potis]

Oh, you are one of those who just ignores people when they are inconvenient. I'll do it again. here are features designed for casual players that are fantastic:

Brawler's Guild (Massive whines from casuals about gear and how Mythic raiders did it faster when it was introduced) Just because you are terrible and require x10 the amount of time to complete, does not make it casual content.
Heroic Dungeons (Default Content) The most defaulttestetest content there is.
Wintergrasp (Default Content) Literally World Boss mechanic.
Battlegrounds (Default Content) There is no such thing as casual or hardcore Battlegrounds.
Artifacts (Default Quest Content) Passive Quest progression.
Class Halls (Default Quest Content) Passive Quest progression.
Timeless Isle (Catch up gear content as everything else before them, somehow this time it was different than the previous ones, and the ones after it) Oh wait, they first introduced Rare mob as Daily reset, so ITS MEGA SPECIAL FOR CASUALS APPARENTLY.
Daily Quest Hubs (Default Content)

Not one of the things you mentioned is remotely aimed at anyone, Pet Battles is casual content, and thats all "segregated" casual content WoW has.

[Echocho]

It's not a worry. I got the relic weapon final step on my main jobs. Thanks for the info.

That's quite a grind, very impressive. Running 33 alliance raids per job to upgrade all your gear should be a breeze

[Kralljin]

And how many cleared it in Classic?

This is not how you measure difficulty.
You have to keep in mind that this content is 15 years old and was also designed under those circumstances, it's pretty easy to poke holes into 15+ year old design.

I can tell you already that more people will clear Y+0 Pre nerf or Lk HC without any buffs when Classic Wotlk comes out - does this also prove that those encounters were actually pretty easy?

No, Naxx was designed for the cutting edge, else Blizzard would have nerfed it into the ground a few weeks after release because most guilds that managed to enter that place didn't go past the easiest bossses.

Don't measure difficulty by the standards of a rerelease, it's dishonest, it's like measuring the difficulty of a test given to children by the completion metrics of adults.

[Echocho]

This is not how you measure difficulty.
You have to keep in mind that this content is 15 years old and was also designed under those circumstances, it's pretty easy to poke holes into 15+ year old design.

I can tell you already that more people will clear Y+0 Pre nerf or Lk HC without any buffs when Classic Wotlk comes out - does this also prove that those encounters were actually pretty easy?

No, Naxx was designed for the cutting edge, else Blizzard would have nerfed it into the ground a few weeks after release because most guilds that managed to enter that place didn't go past the easiest bossses.

Don't measure difficulty by the standards of a rerelease, it's dishonest, it's like measuring the difficulty of a test given to children by the completion metrics of adults.

Copium is a strong drug. I understand.