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  1. #101
    What you should really wish for is that the Burning of Teldrassil never happened in the first place, there was never going to be any massive consequences for the Horde in a two faction game.
    change can't wait.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    What you should really wish for is that the Burning of Teldrassil never happened in the first place, there was never going to be any massive consequences for the Horde in a two faction game.
    Especially when writers seem to be mortally afraid of a proper vengeance story and even more afraid of the slightest trace of moral ambiguity.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Seems worthwhile to me. Maybe the Night Elves would've been forced to be more proactive at that point. Losing a major leader, having to step up, seeing that one of their greatest heroes was willing to die in order to bring them justice... it would've been a very surprising and cool move.
    Honestly, I'd not be looking forward to the Wrath of Malfurion expansion

  4. #104
    I compare WoW to Sunday morning cartoons. Stories tend to be more adventure and action focused with some silliness sparkled here and there. I don't expect deep psychological character development from this game, and I hope we never go that way, since other "worlds" have better tools to explore those subjects.

    In that sense, I don't mind predictable tales, redemption arks, and a focus in forgiveness and kindness. Even if sometimes they try to be more "edgy", I never expect them to go all the way there. And we shouldn't been surprised when they redeem a character or try to make them look more "heroic" by taking the right/good/just/lawful path.

  5. #105
    I'm more pissed how Tyrande turned into a Hussy.

    She hated Illidain. Illdain came and gone.

    What happened after Illidain left?

    She literally copied his entire ****in' style. She's literally a female Illidain now.

    What a bitch. To turn someone down all your life, then when he's gone, you steal all his shit?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolface330 View Post
    I'm more pissed how Tyrande turned into a Hussy.

    She hated Illidain. Illdain came and gone.

    What happened after Illidain left?

    She literally copied his entire ****in' style. She's literally a female Illidain now.

    What a bitch. To turn someone down all your life, then when he's gone, you steal all his shit?
    1) Its not the “same shit”.

    2) Its her decision who she sleeps with. Illidan’s simping shouldnt matter because she chose Malfurion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Davaca View Post
    I compare WoW to Sunday morning cartoons. Stories tend to be more adventure and action focused with some silliness sparkled here and there. I don't expect deep psychological character development from this game, and I hope we never go that way, since other "worlds" have better tools to explore those subjects.

    In that sense, I don't mind predictable tales, redemption arks, and a focus in forgiveness and kindness. Even if sometimes they try to be more "edgy", I never expect them to go all the way there. And we shouldn't been surprised when they redeem a character or try to make them look more "heroic" by taking the right/good/just/lawful path.
    Then they shouldnt have done the genocide plot and drag out that gruesome bullshit , pushing it down our throats.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    1)Then they shouldnt have done the genocide plot and drag out that gruesome bullshit , pushing it down our throats.
    They've repeatably said how they like 'big, shocking moments' like in GoT. They do one like Teldrassil and suddenly 'surprised pikachu face' they're shocked that players are still angry at the genocide. To them, it's already been done and needs to be forgotten for the next big thing.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    1) Its not the “same shit”.

    *Looks at the ritual self-sacrificing power upgrade*

    *Looks at the Warglaives*

    *Looks at her using 'The Hunt' and flying towards Sylvanas*

    Uh huh. Tell me more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    They've repeatably said how they like 'big, shocking moments' like in GoT. They do one like Teldrassil and suddenly 'surprised pikachu face' they're shocked that players are still angry at the genocide. To them, it's already been done and needs to be forgotten for the next big thing.
    They forgot how GoT actually had those events lead to other events and so on. Instead of just “its old news, lets move on to another setpiece”.

    One situation leads to another, leads to another and so on. From Ned getting his head lobbed off to Red Wedding to… idk if Arya’s revenge had a specific name to it but you get what i mean.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They forgot how GoT actually had those events lead to other events and so on. Instead of just “its old news, lets move on to another setpiece”.

    One situation leads to another, leads to another and so on. From Ned getting his head lobbed off to Red Wedding to… idk if Arya’s revenge had a specific name to it but you get what i mean.
    Exactly! As if those big events exist in a vacuum and can be disregarded. At this point, the characters are just props to be used for whatever demented story hook the writers have, with no capacity to act in a realistic manner to the things that happen to them.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    *Looks at the ritual self-sacrificing power upgrade*

    *Looks at the Warglaives*

    *Looks at her using 'The Hunt' and flying towards Sylvanas*

    Uh huh. Tell me more.
    Totally forgot she used the Hunt. I was mostly referencing her Warglaive use.

    My take was only this - You wanna hate someone. Not like them. AWESOME. Do it. Its your choice. Your pick.

    But when you hate someone, then when they leave, you copy EVERYTHING from them?

    You're a goddamn hypocrite.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    *Because plot demanded for everybody to suddenly become an imbecile.

    For Saurfang to buy into her bullshit 14 words + Libensraum spiel.

    For Alliance to let Anduin handle military deployment.

    For night elves to suddenly forget the lay of their own land.

    Amazing strategy that only requires for all of your enemies to be morons... Works only for writers pets though, before using consult with your local Blizzard office.
    Well, how the hell you think that "being smart" works?
    You do something that morons don't or won't and morons usually think that they are super smart.

    You don't have to invent anything new to be strategical mastermind.
    You just have to use what is at your disposal.
    But you have to do it and you have to use it, which Sylvannas did, masterfully.

    So, yeah, plot is a plot and in this plot Alliance was stupid.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Khann View Post
    Well, how the hell you think that "being smart" works?
    You do something that morons don't or won't and morons usually think that they are super smart.

    You don't have to invent anything new to be strategical mastermind.
    You just have to use what is at your disposal.
    But you have to do it and you have to use it, which Sylvannas did, masterfully.

    So, yeah, plot is a plot and in this plot Alliance was stupid.
    Artificially dumbing down one party to make their opponent look smart is not the kind of plot that “works”.

    Its the kind of plot that makes people lose interest or leave, because it is entirely forced.

    When you just push the plot point, ignoring all previous evidence and lore… It wont look natural.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolface330 View Post
    Totally forgot she used the Hunt. I was mostly referencing her Warglaive use.

    My take was only this - You wanna hate someone. Not like them. AWESOME. Do it. Its your choice. Your pick.

    But when you hate someone, then when they leave, you copy EVERYTHING from them?

    You're a goddamn hypocrite.
    Who hate who?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Artificially dumbing down one party to make their opponent look smart is not the kind of plot that “works”.

    Its the kind of plot that makes people lose interest or leave, because it is entirely forced.

    When you just push the plot point, ignoring all previous evidence and lore… It wont look natural.
    Artificially dumbing down, wtf....what does that even mean. Like, its a story, they telling a story that they are creating. Its artificial all the way, non stop, all the time.

    I am perfectly aware that people are going to lose interest when things are not going their way - fast and right the hell now.
    Those people should lose interests. I don't want to see or have anything with them ever.

    What evidence and lore you are talking about? Are you aware that Sylvannas did not choose to be a banshee queen or undead and when she was free from Lich Kings will, she was seeking for a place back into alliance or horde and alliance decided that every undead is a monster that needs to be hunt down and exterminated like rat. Horde gave them chance.

    Revenge was swift and sweet.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Khann View Post
    Artificially dumbing down, wtf....what does that even mean. Like, its a story, they telling a story that they are creating. Its artificial all the way, non stop, all the time.

    I am perfectly aware that people are going to lose interest when things are not going their way - fast and right the hell now.
    Those people should lose interests. I don't want to see or have anything with them ever.

    What evidence and lore you are talking about? Are you aware that Sylvannas did not choose to be a banshee queen or undead and when she was free from Lich Kings will, she was seeking for a place back into alliance or horde and alliance decided that every undead is a monster that needs to be hunt down and exterminated like rat. Horde gave them chance.

    Revenge was swift and sweet.
    You just spewing bullshit right now. Her first act was to betray Garithos and his people, killing remaining Lordaeron survivors. Betray him in the deal SHE proposed and that he followed to a word. He was a racist, but she had no idea of it when she stabbed him in the back. Then she began waging war on any human left in Lordaeron.

    CONTRARY TO BULLSHIT BELIEF the whole "Humans VS Undead" was instigated and perpetuated BY THE UNDEAD, humans mostly had other problems then "hunting down undead" and only undead who was purposefully hunted down was actually Nathanos. And that was because he assaulted travelers in the Plaguelands and harassed local Lodge of Farstriders.

    I have no bloody idea why that even became a widespread belief when most times we see humans and undead interact its undead trying to wipe out humans, only Scarlets were actually attacking them, and those were enemies of both Horde and Alliance. Not to mention how they also hated elves and dwarves.

    So just for you - its not lore accurate. Undead were not victims of racism. The worst they got were some verbal slander, and the attacks of Scarlets who were not part of any major faction.

    And artificially dumbing down means making character act dumber then they were written before to allow some plot point to happen. Even in books and other fiction you has to follow consistency in writing. Without consistency fiction becomes crap.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    You just spewing bullshit right now. Her first act was to betray Garithos and his people, killing remaining Lordaeron survivors. Betray him in the deal SHE proposed and that he followed to a word. He was a racist, but she had no idea of it when she stabbed him in the back. Then she began waging war on any human left in Lordaeron.

    CONTRARY TO BULLSHIT BELIEF the whole "Humans VS Undead" was instigated and perpetuated BY THE UNDEAD, humans mostly had other problems then "hunting down undead" and only undead who was purposefully hunted down was actually Nathanos. And that was because he assaulted travelers in the Plaguelands and harassed local Lodge of Farstriders.

    I have no bloody idea why that even became a widespread belief when most times we see humans and undead interact its undead trying to wipe out humans, only Scarlets were actually attacking them, and those were enemies of both Horde and Alliance. Not to mention how they also hated elves and dwarves.

    So just for you - its not lore accurate. Undead were not victims of racism. The worst they got were some verbal slander, and the attacks of Scarlets who were not part of any major faction.

    And artificially dumbing down means making character act dumber then they were written before to allow some plot point to happen. Even in books and other fiction you has to follow consistency in writing. Without consistency fiction becomes crap.
    First, I was mentioning the part way past Garithos because part around Garithos is when she was just got freed from Lich Kings will and no one knew, except her.

    However, Garithos was a dumb fool here. He even asked Sylvannas why should he trusted a Scourge? And he did anyways.

    I am quite sure that a dreadlord Varimathras executed Garithos.
    And, at that point, it should be quite evident that Sylvannas (just like today) had a goal. That goal was to get to Arthas.

    She didn't order a dreadlord to execute Garithos because she hated Garithos or humans. She did it because it demonstrates power she had over a dreadlord and she was fully and absolutely aware that the blame will fall on the Scourge and Garithos was just a means to an end. A marvelous move once again. I am quite sure there is a very similar reason why Teldrassil was burned.

    Horde was also a means to an end when she was the Warchief - and this is where consistency and how well a story is done by Blizzard because this spans over expansions, since WarCraft 3.

    Now when it comes to a "wide spread belief", this is not a belief, this is a fact.

    Joining the Horde
    The Forsaken, having carved a functional empire of their own and with growing numbers by the day, knew that the next step to realizing their vengeance upon Arthas Menethil was to secure their place in the world. Though Sylvanas had presided over the civil war in the Plaguelands and successfully conquered the ruins of Lordaeron, how long the relatively small faction of the Forsaken could keep their holdings was unclear.

    As such, Sylvanas looked to finding allies. To that end, she sent ambassadors to both the Alliance and the Horde. Her emissaries to the Alliance never returned. Sylvanas suspected that they hadn't survived long enough even to make it past the gates of Stormwind City. Fortunately, her ambassadors to the Horde fared better with the Archdruid Hamuul Runetotem believing that Forsaken could be redeemed and spiritually revived.
    So basically, Sylvannas never saw her self as a servant ever since she was freed from Lich Kings will.
    She was always her true self within the Horde and the Horde has served that purpose, which we yet have to see what it was.

    Marvelous.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Khann View Post
    First, I was mentioning the part way past Garithos because part around Garithos is when she was just got freed from Lich Kings will and no one knew, except her.

    However, Garithos was a dumb fool here. He even asked Sylvannas why should he trusted a Scourge? And he did anyways.

    I am quite sure that a dreadlord Varimathras executed Garithos.
    And, at that point, it should be quite evident that Sylvannas (just like today) had a goal. That goal was to get to Arthas.

    She didn't order a dreadlord to execute Garithos because she hated Garithos or humans. She did it because it demonstrates power she had over a dreadlord and she was fully and absolutely aware that the blame will fall on the Scourge and Garithos was just a means to an end. A marvelous move once again. I am quite sure there is a very similar reason why Teldrassil was burned.

    Horde was also a means to an end when she was the Warchief - and this is where consistency and how well a story is done by Blizzard because this spans over expansions, since WarCraft 3.

    Now when it comes to a "wide spread belief", this is not a belief, this is a fact.



    So basically, Sylvannas never saw her self as a servant ever since she was freed from Lich Kings will.
    She was always her true self within the Horde and the Horde has served that purpose, which we yet have to see what it was.

    Marvelous.
    You fucking around at this point.

    It dosent matter what reason she had to kill Garithos and his people, it was an act of aggression against her allies who did not betrayed her first.

    So by doing that she initiated hostilities with the humans and so any reprisal or mistrust against her is not “racism” but a response to her own attack.

    And then Anduin says how those envoys of hers were not killed by Stormwind subjects or soldiers. He dosent know why they didnt made it back to Undercity but they were received in Stomrwind and told to go back, not accepted into Alliance but not slaughtered either. So while their embassy was not as successful as they wanted it was not a failure in itself.

    Also… She was literally dumb enough to trust the JAILER to make a free and fair Shadowlands and only changed her mind when Anduin gave her pep talk and when Jailer told her straight in the face that he , in fact, wants to enslave reality to his will.

    Thats about as dumb as it goes. The shocker! The JAILER wants to CONTROL reality and Shadowlands. What a revelation. Nobody saw that coming.

    And now she is a broken wreck, on the floor, crying for us to stop him. Basically reverting to her “Ranger General” time but whinier. “Marvellous”.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-10-03 at 12:29 AM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    *Looks at the ritual self-sacrificing power upgrade*

    *Looks at the Warglaives*

    *Looks at her using 'The Hunt' and flying towards Sylvanas*

    Uh huh. Tell me more.
    Yeah but it's different, Tyrande has glowing tattoos.

    Wait a minute.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

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