I wish Tyrande chose vengeance

[loras]

Remember 3 years ago when Tyrande invoked the Night Warrior and all Night Elf players thought they'd finally get some retribution? What a joke. Worst of all is that she's been portrayed like a mad woman for wanting justice. Now that she chose 'renewal' (which basically means letting the Horde get away with it, again) over vengeance, all chances of seeing retribution are gone.

Imo, to have at least some form of closure, the Kaldorei should give the Horde an ultimatum. Depart from Night Elf lands and never return, or be hunted down. These lands include Darkshore, Ashenvale, Mount Hyjal and Moonglade. I'm sure the mages and druids could construct some natural/magical barrier between Ashenvale and the Barrens/Azshara, to prevent any trespassing. Malfurion should also kick the Tauren and Trolls out of the Cenarion Circle. Letting them join was dumb decision to begin with.

However, knowing Blizzard, the Horde will be invading Ashenvale again in 3-5 years. And they again will get away with it scot free.

The clear solution is as follows; Add a Scottish-inspired race to the Horde. They'll never be able to do anything Scot-free again.

On a more serious note: Even if she is forced to abandon vengeance against Sylvanas that does not mean she has to abandon it against the ones that executed Sylvanas' moronic vision.

And also Tyrande is just that: Tyrande. Even in accepting her rule dissent is certainly possible.

Also Greymane may have a word to say about the ultimate fate of the Forsaken and the banshee before the end.

[Caperfin]

By Blizzard standards every city/village gets invaded anyway...

[Triceron]

But Elune not wanting Tyranda to sacrifice herself at the battle of Ardenweld makes 0 sense since the Night Warrior ritual is supposed to be fatal. The moment Elune answered Tyrande's pray and gave her the power of the Night Warrior any notion of 'I don't want you to die' goes out the window.

Which is exactly what I criticized the story for.

It doesn't mean the Night Warrior ritual was not a power up, it means the writers did a piss poor job at representing it by giving that power to a character they were unwillimg to sacrifice. That was literally my first post here.

There are other Night Warriors who DID sacrifice themselves, so we do know the power up is effective in the lore. The execution of it using Tyrande is purely the problem IMO, because they were not willing to kill her off.

Right now people are associating the writers using Elune as a foil for Tyrande as the Night Warrior being a failure, when in the story she is the exception of someone super special being redeemed rather than the rule. And I agree that particular story sucks, but it doesn't mean Night Warrior was not a power up. We're talking about two different things.

[jellmoo]

I'm not talking about how powerful he is, I'm talking about how powered up Tyrande had become compared to before. One shotting those dogs with moonbeams is far more than 'what players could do in Vanilla' for example.

And whether you're impressed or not is my concern since that is subjective. She could pull the moon down from the sky and you could still say it's not impressive. Doesn't mean she didn't display a power up.

Honest question though, as I'm very much not a 'Night Elf guy' and don't pay massively close attention to their lore:

What powers did she gain from bring the Night Warrior? What was it she was able to do after gaining this power that she couldn't do before?

Because most of what I remember her doing seemed to be things she could do before. Firing arrows and using moon magic certainly seemed to be things that she could have done pre-Elune juice. Swinging glaives around? It's totally possible that I missed a big something or somethings, but it never really felt like the powers really manifested as anything we saw. Certainly not like with Sylvanas, where we saw her Jailer juice let her do things like unleash bolts of death magic that defied the understanding of top mages, or create spooky magic chains that let her solo the Lich King. Tyrande, comparatively, didn't seem to actually do much with her powers and I feel like they were woefully ill defined.

[Biomega]

What powers did she gain from bring the Night Warrior? What was it she was able to do after gaining this power that she couldn't do before?

WoW power levels have always been vague AF. We have no real metric to gauge things by, so it's all just relative to whatever story they're currently telling. Tyrande's new "powers" are no different in that respect than Sylvanas' were when we saw them at the end of BFA - what could she suddenly do she couldn't do before? How much more "power" did she have now, and why? All super vague, and super obscure, because at best it'll be 10 seconds in a cinematic and the rest is just 'trust me dude' story materials that tell but don't show. It's very rare for something to actually be visibly on a different level.

[Triceron]

Honest question though, as I'm very much not a 'Night Elf guy' and don't pay massively close attention to their lore:

What powers did she gain from bring the Night Warrior? What was it she was able to do after gaining this power that she couldn't do before?

Because most of what I remember her doing seemed to be things she could do before. Firing arrows and using moon magic certainly seemed to be things that she could have done pre-Elune juice. Swinging glaives around? It's totally possible that I missed a big something or somethings, but it never really felt like the powers really manifested as anything we saw. Certainly not like with Sylvanas, where we saw her Jailer juice let her do things like unleash bolts of death magic that defied the understanding of top mages, or create spooky magic chains that let her solo the Lich King. Tyrande, comparatively, didn't seem to actually do much with her powers and I feel like they were woefully ill defined.

She supersaiyaned up to Sylvanas and smacked her down. Is that not a demonstration of power?

The rest I will agree with Biomega, it's just vague implications that were poorly shown.

I would say the same applies to many things in Warcraft in general, to lesser extents. Like why become a Lich when a non-lich could be just as powerful. It doesn't mean lichdom isn't powerful. Why drink demon blood a second time when regular Orcs can be just as powerful without it? It just means it is poorly represented/powerscaled. The lore is clear about it being a power up, and that is something ai do not think should be argued. How they power up is absolutely valid though.


The Night Warrior ritual is regarded in the lore, that is what makes it a thing. Its execution to the audience and through the Tyrande's storyline is the problem, and they did a disservice to making it a tangible power up, to the point where we all question how it is even considered one. I agree it's ill demonstrated, but Tyrande does demonstrate some powers she had not had before.

[jellmoo]

She supersaiyaned up to Sylvanas and smacked her down. Is that not a demonstration of power?

I gotta be honest, I don't know what that means... Do you mean when she flies up to catch Sylvanas?

The rest I will agree with Biomega, it's just vague implications that were poorly shown.

I would say the same applies to many things in Warcraft in general, to lesser extents. Like why become a Lich when a non-lich could be just as powerful. It doesn't mean lichdom isn't powerful. Why drink demon blood a second time when regular Orcs can be just as powerful without it? It just means it is poorly represented/powerscaled. The lore is clear about it being a power up, and that is something ai do not think should be argued. How they power up is absolutely valid though.

The weird thing about this one is that there were some great opportunities to actually showcase what Tyrande could do with that power. She's featured in quite a few in game moments and cinematics where they could have shown her doing some pretty wild things. By and large they didn't, which is a really odd choice. When it comes to things like drinking demon blood or becoming a lich, these aren't things we really get a viewing of too much in modern WoW. They are kind of legacy things. Tyrande getting the moon juice though was definitely something that they could have easily shown. Her cinematic with Nathanos, for example. It could have shown her do truly incredible things. Instead, she does stuff that I'm pretty sure was well within her wheelhouse before she was powered up.

Contrast it with Sylvanas who has demonstrated actual unique abilities given to her by the Jailer. It honestly feels weird to have something like the Night Warrior featured so prominently in the game be *this* poorly defined.

It's one of the reasons I find the idea of making this into a class so utterly baffling.

The Night Warrior ritual is regarded in the lore, that is what makes it a thing. Its execution to the audience and through the Tyrande's storyline is the problem, and they did a disservice to making it a tangible power up, to the point where we all question how it is even considered one. I agree it's ill demonstrated, but Tyrande does demonstrate some powers she had not had before.

The saying for writing fiction is "show, don't tell", and this is a great example of it in video game form. They tell us how powerful and special the Night Warrior is. They don't show us, and I think that really does the story a disservice.

[Khann]

Remember 3 years ago when Tyrande invoked the Night Warrior and all Night Elf players thought they'd finally get some retribution? What a joke. Worst of all is that she's been portrayed like a mad woman for wanting justice. Now that she chose 'renewal' (which basically means letting the Horde get away with it, again) over vengeance, all chances of seeing retribution are gone.

Imo, to have at least some form of closure, the Kaldorei should give the Horde an ultimatum. Depart from Night Elf lands and never return, or be hunted down. These lands include Darkshore, Ashenvale, Mount Hyjal and Moonglade. I'm sure the mages and druids could construct some natural/magical barrier between Ashenvale and the Barrens/Azshara, to prevent any trespassing. Malfurion should also kick the Tauren and Trolls out of the Cenarion Circle. Letting them join was dumb decision to begin with.

However, knowing Blizzard, the Horde will be invading Ashenvale again in 3-5 years. And they again will get away with it scot free.

How in the world, you haven't learn anything?
Sylvannas and Garrosh showed to all of Azeroth that Alliance, in their full might, would not be able to defeat the Horde.
It takes inside "traitors" to defeat the Horde.

And you are talking about Kaldorei making ultimatums....

[jellmoo]

WoW power levels have always been vague AF. We have no real metric to gauge things by, so it's all just relative to whatever story they're currently telling. Tyrande's new "powers" are no different in that respect than Sylvanas' were when we saw them at the end of BFA - what could she suddenly do she couldn't do before? How much more "power" did she have now, and why? All super vague, and super obscure, because at best it'll be 10 seconds in a cinematic and the rest is just 'trust me dude' story materials that tell but don't show. It's very rare for something to actually be visibly on a different level.

I don't think it's so much 'power level' as it is establishing an expectation of what something this massive should be. They present it as absorbing the powers of a goddess, to the point that it's a death sentence. You are taking in so much power that it will eventually kill you.

Except we just don't see what those powers are. Like, it seems that the bulk of her fighting is shooting arrows or swinging glaives, and neither of those activities really seem to need a magical death sentence. I mean, compare it to Jaina summoning a magic attack boat which she does for shits and giggles and it seems like a weird approach. The fact that she doesn't really do much new is an interesting choice for them to display when they had a ton of opportunities to do the outlandish. I don't think it's about power level, rather it's more about power at all. Tyrande on moon juice doesn't do much different than Tyrande without moon juice, which makes the whole 'sacrifice my life for power' seem like a pretty stupid choice.

[Triceron]

I gotta be honest, I don't know what that means... Do you mean when she flies up to catch Sylvanas?

Yes. 10 characters

[Biomega]

I don't think it's so much 'power level' as it is establishing an expectation of what something this massive should be. They present it as absorbing the powers of a goddess, to the point that it's a death sentence. You are taking in so much power that it will eventually kill you.

Except we just don't see what those powers are. Like, it seems that the bulk of her fighting is shooting arrows or swinging glaives, and neither of those activities really seem to need a magical death sentence.

I mean, it's the same with Sylvanas though isn't it? She made a deal with the Jailer, taking in the power of death itself... And that allows her to... uh... shoot arrows and fling daggers and turn into a banshee spirit, all of which she did before? I guess she can shoot chains now, or something? WAY off from what it supposedly means, same as Tyrande's new SSJ: Elune mode.

[Maljinwo]

Weren't blood elves previously high elves?

They are still high elves. It's the same race

The name Blood Elves is meant to honor the fallen during Arthas' attack on Quel'thalas.

Honestly, calling yourself a "high elf" is pretty disrespectful if you think about it

[jellmoo]

I mean, it's the same with Sylvanas though isn't it? She made a deal with the Jailer, taking in the power of death itself... And that allows her to... uh... shoot arrows and fling daggers and turn into a banshee spirit, all of which she did before? I guess she can shoot chains now, or something? WAY off from what it supposedly means, same as Tyrande's new SSJ: Elune mode.

Well with Sylvanas we see those chains essentially allow her to solo the Lich King, and we also have that death bolt she uses to one shot Saurfang which apparently defies the magical knowledge of some of the most studied in the art. It's not a metric ton, but it does feel a lot more substantial than what Tyrande does, which is essentially just the same things she's always done.

[Jshadowhunter]

You get used to hyped-up storylines that go nowhere after a while with this franchise.

Ye, but at some point, you have to ask yourself "Whats' the point if the story isn't engaging and lame? Why even bother playing the game in the 1st place?".
Because you can only do things for so long until you realize the ONLY reason why you're playing the game is because... you've become a BRANDER.

[VladlTutushkin]

How in the world, you haven't learn anything?
Sylvannas and Garrosh showed to all of Azeroth that Alliance, in their full might, would not be able to defeat the Horde.
It takes inside "traitors" to defeat the Horde.

And you are talking about Kaldorei making ultimatums....

And Horde needed its full might, a whole night elven army away from Teldrassil and also Malfurion and Tyrande separated to have a hope of even reaching the Tree.

And even then Malfurion with a few city guards and armed civilians managed to hold off the Horde for two weeks, only failing when they found the Secret Plot Trail past his defences.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And Horde needed its full might, a whole night elven army away from Teldrassil and also Malfurion and Tyrande separated to have a hope of even reaching the Tree.

And even then Malfurion with a few city guards and armed civilians managed to hold off the Horde for two weeks, only failing when they found the Secret Plot Trail past his defences.

The horde didn’t use its full might it was just the troops stationed in org which was mostly orcs trolls and some cows they had next to no support from the undead blood elfs thunderbluff or any allied races.

[VladlTutushkin]

The horde didn’t use its full might it was just the troops stationed in org which was mostly orcs trolls and some cows they had next to no support from the undead blood elfs thunderbluff or any allied races.

Not true. We see it in game with blood elves, goblins and some undead being present.

So the least represented faction was the undead, which is logical since they are mostly in Eastern Kingdoms.

Saurfang’s whole plan was built around accumulating a huge army, not just “some” forces, but TONS of them.

[Kithelle]

The whole story arc was so blisteringly awful, from the Horde going along with it because "Muh warchief", the Night elves not knowing their own lands (The secret path in via Felwood), the suddenly long-range catapults, all the hubbub about the oh-so-powerful Night warrior, having to beg for the fight against Nathanos in Darkshore to not be an utter humiliation, being called crazy for wanting revenge by Anduin, some more bits that just make me angrier to even think about, and at the end of the shitshow, Tyrande "Chooses renewal", so the Night elves are back to placidly waiting for the next invasion.

It just makes me laugh at people saying "I want more focus on [race]!", with these writers, no you bloody don't!

Makes me sad and angry, Nelves are my favorite race but Blizzard just constantly defecates all over them...the one time they will seemingly "get back" at someone at the last second it's choosing forgiveness. It's a joke...at this point it makes me wonder if the whole Malfurion crying for Tyrande in Val'sharah was all a big laugh at Night Elf expense...

[Powerogue]

She didn't lose her power from that one action though.

She lost the power because Elune didn't want her to sacrifice herself, that is all. She literally had the the power to end Sylvanas then and there, but for clear reasons the writers chose, that isn't what happened.

I do like Taliesin's interpretation best, which has it be that it was Tyrande's will in that moment that faltered, not Elune's power. It meshes well with how she seems no less powerful after, but significantly less stable, to the point of actively lashing out unable to distinguish friend from foe by the end. I could compare it to how in Order of the Stick when Varsuuvius obtained ultimate power but needed to maintain concentration to channel it. It'd make sense, being torn between Sylvanas baiting her and potentially failing to protect the very same night elves in the Heart of the Forest that burned the first time would cause some cognitive dissonance. Particular emphasis on the "Stay a while and listen" line in the Heart afterwards with the ghost priestess paraphrased "Tyrande, I knew you wouldn't abandon us!" "I almost did."

But I will also absolutely say that if that was anything close to what they were going for they conveyed it terribly, as the straightforward face-value interpretation that is usually enough is absolutely still "Elune withdrew her power in that critical moment for no good reason and never apologizes or clarifies why." The next cutscene only has Elune repent for the harm she inadvertently caused during Teldrassil (trying to do the same thing she did for Ysera in Legion), it never addresses this.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a joke...at this point it makes me wonder if the whole Malfurion crying for Tyrande in Val'sharah was all a big laugh at Night Elf expense...

I still maintain that line everyone pokes fun at was the satyr mimicking Malfurion's voice, as we find that all of the crying out Malfurions scattered about are illusions and he mocks her with each one we uncover.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not true. We see it in game with blood elves, goblins and some undead being present.

So the least represented faction was the undead, which is logical since they are mostly in Eastern Kingdoms.

Saurfang’s whole plan was built around accumulating a huge army, not just “some” forces, but TONS of them.

There are some blood elfs goblins ect in org that’s why I said next to not support not absolutely zero.

The whole plan was to make them think they were going to silithus which is why they only use the forces of org because sending the army’s of the blood elfs or thunderbluff to org wouldn’t make any sense for such a diversion.