Deleting emotions: facade and blaming players for being toxic?

[Snufflupagus]

Vanilla/Classic didn’t have shared mob tagging for quests, among other things. It was infinitely more open for misbehaviour (as the OP seems to define it) than retail.

And yet…



People are the deciding factor in decency or toxicity. The devs could never design a game in which toxicity was impossible. Even a multiplayer Sims would be rank with toxicity. Blaming your crappy behaviour on the devs (and your appalling driving behaviour on “if there were better roads we wouldn’t have traffic jams!) is childish and betrays the fact that you lack a basic understanding of how these things work.

With that being said the problem in this thread is that the OP is conflating the issues of people behaving badly—ninja looting, mob mass farming, “roadside riding”, whatever that is—with the issue of removing emotes. Those things are not in any way related and acting like they are (by the devs or the OP) is either ignorant or dishonest.

I’ve played WoW for, what, seventeen years or something since release? And I’ve never ninja looted. I’ve been driving for almost twenty years and I’ve never used an off-ramp to jump past a traffic jam. Emotes have been in the game since beta and they’ve never been a problem before. When there’s a problem is because people are being wankers, but in the case of emotes there isn’t a problem. The devs have just made them into one.

Spitting on other people has always been offensive and I've never understood what sort of 12-year old mind put it in the game to start with. It was offensive before there was a shop. It's been offensive afterward. You don't spit on people in real life—at least I fucking hope not—so you shouldn't do it in a game.

I respect your opinion, @MoanaLisa, but I think you’re missing the forest for the trees here. I don’t mass murder tens or hundreds of <Insert Opposing Army> in order to carry a flag across a valley in real life, and certainly shouldn’t, but I do it sometimes three or four times a day in-game. I’ve played on the same PvP server since WoW came out and hating the opposing faction has been a core part of the game basically since day dot. Spitting on the enemy and their corpses—hunting down your enemies in Ashenvale and slaughtering them (but not camping the body)—isn’t some kind of perverse behaviour in a game constructed around a fictional inveterate tribal hatred. It’s not toxic either, it’s just the game we’ve chosen to play and the side we chose to pick. I’ve bought Horde players beers before when we’ve bumped into each other, but when I get an orc shaman on the ground I’m spitting on his corpse.

[Kokolums]

In the final moment, the toxicity is brewed by the communities within the game. "Conditions for toxicity" in the end, demands the player take the final steps of becoming the toxic problem. And who decides for such conditions, as toxicity brews differently within every human being.

if there were server communities, where your reputation actually mattered in terms of getting groups, instead of an anonymous group finder, a lot of toxic behavior would cease. The game with all of its anonymous queues is designed to be MAXIMUM toxic.

[Adamas102]

You are doing it again.
'I have no counterargument so i will use your words but opposite'.

Are you just really really dense? There was no "doing it again". You said "How about... just not caring at all when sombody 'spits' on you in online game?" and I responded "How about just not caring when Blizzard removes emotes from the game?". You're not being clever by pointing out that there wasn't an argument there. Your first statement wasn't a good argument and therefore it deserved mockery, not a counterargument.

For me it is.

Then you don't know what a good argument is to begin with. If it can't be applied consistently then it's objectively a bad argument.

It is not 16 slot... atleast for a few years now (in Classic around several months).
Google why it was hard to increase size of it and you will understand.
Nobody was against it.

I'll let this one go since I'm guessing English isn't your first language, but at no point did I say that the backpack was still 16 slots. It was changed despite having been a certain way for almost 14 years, hence tenure in game isn't a good reason to keep things unchanged.

Not true.
I use emotes like /hug /thanks /hello /silly much more often.
There should be some 'negative' ones to counter these too.
And again... pepole have to stop being fragile seeing a few fixels on their screen.

Uhh...
RP reasons?
Silly interactions with other people/friends?
Showing others that you do not like store mounts in the game?
Other faction can see it regardless of language?

Yeah, none of those affect game play in any positive way.

This is a game first and foremost, and games by their nature shouldn't include outlets designed pretty much to convey negativity. That's why having emotes to express things like joy don't need to have negative ones to counter them. Bringing up the store mounts makes this point abundantly clear.

[unbound]

My theory is - roadside-riders and wrongside-riders only appear where traffic-jams are. And drivers can't be blamed for traffic jams. Authorities should be. And if authorities do nothing with this problem, then drivers have to adapt and do the same, cuz otherwise they would suffer. At the end all drivers start to do wrong things. And even more. It's wrong to shut them up and take their horns away, so they won't be able to be "toxic" vs each other, in order to "fix" this problem. It's just facade. Illusion of actions.

Example: I was against ninja-looting back in old times. But Blizzard did nothing to prevent ninja-looters from doing it. So I adapted and started to ninja-loot too, because otherwise I would be in constant lose position vs other players. Can I be blamed for becoming ninja-looter? Was it me, who was wrong in this situation? Only possible solution - was personal loot. Some people would say, that personal loot is anti-social and that it should be players, who should be blamed for implementing it. But is it true?

What do you think? Who should be blamed for toxicity in Wow? "Toxic" community? Or developers, who've created conditions for toxicity to grow like cancer in this game?

My own opinion: major source of toxicity in this game - is overusing of competitive content (even in PVE, that should be about cooperation - not competition), that is based on dog-eats-dog principles. Players just have to become toxic vs each other, otherwise they would be "weak" and fall into lose position. That's, what should be fixed. Not band-aiding via removing some emotions, that are just consequence of problem - not it's cause.

Not all drivers do the wrong thing. Do all drivers ride on the roadside or wrongside? No. In fact, the vast majority of drivers don't do that. Also, spoiler alert, if you are in traffic, you *are* traffic.

Can the situation be improved by government others? Likely. But to simply say, "This sucks. So if I do something wrong, it's not my fault." is an utterly childish response deserving of derision. The very hallmark of maturity is *not* doing things that you could do because we live in a society and have to look out for each other as much as for ourselves.

I've been ninja-looted over the decades. Guess what I haven't done? I haven't ninja-looted. Just because others do it doesn't mean that I *have* to as well. It's an item in a game...this isn't someone who is trying to murder me, and I have to kill them in self-defense. You are just rationalizing your bad behavior because you find it to simply be more convenient.

Does the game developer bear some responsibility? Very much so. There should be consequences for bad behavior just like there is in the real world. There are those that are simply bad and then there are those who don't really mind being bad but wait for others to lead the way. It is in the developer's interest to keep those people from impacting the masses that don't do those things and understand how to work with others.

But, again, the lazy developer isn't the reason you are behaving bad. You are behaving badly because you don't really mind being bad. Stop trying to rationalize it as anything else.

[M1r4g3]

Not all drivers do the wrong thing. Do all drivers ride on the roadside or wrongside? No. In fact, the vast majority of drivers don't do that. Also, spoiler alert, if you are in traffic, you *are* traffic.

Can the situation be improved by government others? Likely. But to simply say, "This sucks. So if I do something wrong, it's not my fault." is an utterly childish response deserving of derision. The very hallmark of maturity is *not* doing things that you could do because we live in a society and have to look out for each other as much as for ourselves.

I've been ninja-looted over the decades. Guess what I haven't done? I haven't ninja-looted. Just because others do it doesn't mean that I *have* to as well. It's an item in a game...this isn't someone who is trying to murder me, and I have to kill them in self-defense. You are just rationalizing your bad behavior because you find it to simply be more convenient.

Does the game developer bear some responsibility? Very much so. There should be consequences for bad behavior just like there is in the real world. There are those that are simply bad and then there are those who don't really mind being bad but wait for others to lead the way. It is in the developer's interest to keep those people from impacting the masses that don't do those things and understand how to work with others.

But, again, the lazy developer isn't the reason you are behaving bad. You are behaving badly because you don't really mind being bad. Stop trying to rationalize it as anything else.

Ye but what if others don't share your view on what makes someone ''bad'' or an ''asshole''?
Two people can look at the same person and one says they are an asshole and the other says they are not, whos right?


Also if you replace every car with a self driving car and change how roads/stops work to accommodate that then suddenly there are no more road ragers that scream at bad drivers or traffic, weird how a large group of people would suddenly vanish like that, its as if the problem was the system all along and not something unrealistic as making every human a perfect drivers.

[kaminaris]

I have played FF14 and it is super toxic. Even more so than wow. Only difference is it is hidden behind the facade of not being able to use world chat and having to use discord.

I have been in over a dozen FF14 discords and neay 80% of them were filled with racsist, homophobic people shit talking others.

Now I am not saying everyone is like that; but a lot are.

Yeah you never played FFXIV. This is pure nonsense. The difference is that is really hard to find toxic people in XIV (obviously they do exist if you search hard) but in WoW is hard to find non-toxic people.

Simple example join random dungeon and you will understand.

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If I tell a player that I hope his entire family suffers an explosive rectal prolapse that's on me. If optimal gameplay requires antisocial behaviour that's on the devs.

That is still on developers for not banning you till you learn or you get permaban. That is 100% on devs not moderating their game.

[rhorle]

That is still on developers for not banning you till you learn or you get permaban. That is 100% on devs not moderating their game.

So players have no personal responsibility because the devs didn't predict the future to take action before the player was ever toxic?

[Byleth]

I have played FF14 and it is super toxic. Even more so than wow. Only difference is it is hidden behind the facade of not being able to use world chat and having to use discord.

I have been in over a dozen FF14 discords and neay 80% of them were filled with racsist, homophobic people shit talking others.

Now I am not saying everyone is like that; but a lot are.

This is utter garbage from someone who has obviously never played the game.

Sure, if you go looking for a toxic discord, you will find one. But the overwhelming majority are great.

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That is still on developers for not banning you till you learn or you get permaban. That is 100% on devs not moderating their game.

100%, you are correct. Developers create the circumstances which allow toxic behavior to thrive.

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So players have no personal responsibility because the devs didn't predict the future to take action before the player was ever toxic?

Of course players are responsible for their actions. It's just that without proper moderation, there are no consequences to poor behavior, and this encourages a small problem to get much worse. See: Retail Wow.

[kaminaris]

So players have no personal responsibility because the devs didn't predict the future to take action before the player was ever toxic?

Personal responsibly is that this dude you are going to flame is going to dislike you or hate you or ignore you.
What do you expect? For a dude to drive to your home and punch you in face?

LOL.

Its absolutely on the devs side to moderate their environment.

[luciano]

Pretty much spot on, thin-skinned crybabies has always been the issue, or entitled snowflakes that refuse to accept they are bad at one more thing in their life, so everyone pointing anything out is toxic.

There are times where some people are seriously mentally deranged but you cant even tell apart anymore because even if you say "Run against the wall to skip this pack", you are labelled toxic for wanting people to know how to press W.

I'd argue that the entitled snowflakes are the dudes flipping out because they can't fake spit on people anymore. What are you, nine? Just feel like pulling hair on the playground today? What the actual fuck?

[aceperson]

it's not an option but i say both. it's the devs fault for not recognizing that certain systems create and breed toxicity the way they are designed. but it's also on the community themselves. the devs being idiots are no excuse for being toxic.

[rhorle]

Of course players are responsible for their actions. It's just that without proper moderation, there are no consequences to poor behavior, and this encourages a small problem to get much worse. See: Retail Wow.

That conflicts. Either players are responsible for their actions or the little to no moderation is responsible. A lot of people will be toxic if allowed. That doesn't mean it is the fault of the developers in any way, shape, or form. Everyone can choose to not be toxic. Nothing being done about it just lets the problem continue but it is not the cause of the problem.

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Its absolutely on the devs side to moderate their environment.

So why do players get a free pass to act however they want just because?

[Byleth]

That conflicts. Either players are responsible for their actions or the little to no moderation is responsible. A lot of people will be toxic if allowed. That doesn't mean it is the fault of the developers in any way, shape, or form. Everyone can choose to not be toxic. Nothing being done about it just lets the problem continue but it is not the cause of the problem.

It's not a black or white issue my dude. It can be a both sides are the problem kinda deal.

[kaminaris]

That conflicts. Either players are responsible for their actions or the little to no moderation is responsible. A lot of people will be toxic if allowed. That doesn't mean it is the fault of the developers in any way, shape, or form. Everyone can choose to not be toxic. Nothing being done about it just lets the problem continue but it is not the cause of the problem.

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So why do players get a free pass to act however they want just because?

Nothing conflicts. Responsibility is simply that, getting a ban if you are being too much of a douche. But that ban has to be administrated by devs (GMs).

If there are no penalties ie GMs are not giving out silences -> short bans -> long bans -> perma bans then its their fault. Simple as that.


Your logic is borderline naive, "why not everyone can just not commit crimes".

[crazyman2]

The last time I used /spit was last week, directed a bunch of players who queued for a world boss, got a tag, and then went afk out of range of the bosses' abilities.
There really are occasions somebody needs to be told to fuck off, without getting reported for language.

[rhorle]

It's not a black or white issue my dude. It can be a both sides are the problem kinda deal.

The people that are toxic are always at fault for being toxic. They have the choice. Blizzard does not force them to be toxic. Just because Blizzard doesn't do enough doesn't mean people have the right to be toxic. You keep trying to shift blame from those doing the actions to those not preventing the actions.

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Nothing conflicts. Responsibility is simply that, getting a ban if you are being too much of a douche. But that ban has to be administrated by devs (GMs). If there are no penalties ie GMs are not giving out silences -> short bans -> long bans -> perma bans then its their fault. Simple as that. Your logic is borderline naive, "why not everyone can just not commit crimes".

I don't think you understand your argument. You are the one saying that everyone can commit a crime if everyone is not being punished for that crime. That the criminal has the right to be a criminal because they were not stopped in the first place. No one is forced to be toxic. They choose to be toxic. Developers of any game are not at fault for players making that choice. The player is since it was their choice.

[kaminaris]

The people that are toxic are always at fault for being toxic. They have the choice. Blizzard does not force them to be toxic. Just because Blizzard doesn't do enough doesn't mean people have the right to be toxic. You keep trying to shift blame from those doing the actions to those not preventing the actions.

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I don't think you understand your argument. You are the one saying that everyone can commit a crime if everyone is not being punished for that crime. That the criminal has the right to be a criminal because they were not stopped in the first place. No one is forced to be toxic. They choose to be toxic. Developers of any game are not at fault for players making that choice. The player is since it was their choice.

And this is where you are wrong. In terms of law you have a responsibility for environment you create. Blizzard was sued and paid a hefty sum for that. Not individual employers. Obviously individuals should/probably already had various penalties applied to them etc. but that doesnt change the fact
That if you ignore problems as administrator and let toxicity run wild you are responsible for that.

"no one is forced to be toxic" is again, naive thinking and not realistic. Otherwise moderators/gms/police wouldn't have been necessary.

[rhorle]

"no one is forced to be toxic" is again, naive thinking and not realistic. Otherwise moderators/gms/police wouldn't have been necessary.

So players are not responsible for being toxic because Blizzard was sued for having a toxic workplace? Moderators, game masters, police, and any other entity that enforces rules is necessary because people choose to break those rules. Your arguments literally prove what I am saying. People choose to be toxic and things were created by society to discourage or stop those actions.

That choice was still made by the person and not the enforcer. Players were not forced to be toxic because they were told it is against the rules. Lol.

[Neuroticaine]

While these changes do not actually accomplish anything note worthy, I genuinely cannot understand the mindset of anyone bothered by the changes.

[M1r4g3]

So players have no personal responsibility because the devs didn't predict the future to take action before the player was ever toxic?

I don't think you need to be a prophet to predict that if you punch someone they will probably punch you back. Do you think it requires much brainpower to figure out that for example the way that current m+ keys work where 1 shithead can leave in the middle of the run and ruin the run+key would be toxic?

So why do players get a free pass to act however they want just because?

Because the devs didn't create an environment where not being toxic pays off? Like what do you gain by being nice now? Less gear?