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  1. #1

    Revamping m+ rio system

    This idea is only regarding m+ though its idea could be implimented into other areas of the game with thought.

    The idea revolves around there being a measurement bar regarding a players actual skill level to go alongside base rio.

    1) utilites
    2) survival

    What i would suggest would be that players get a base rio score for completing a key in time but also a star rating that accumilates for every key completed given by how well the player plays.

    I did think perhaps there should be a rating for output but when i think about it this would not be needed so much as you need to also keep the system in place where the players who do not use utilities / survival AND do bad dps/healing can still get invited to keys. its the fundamental part of M+ to bring your own weight in output, the higher you go the more its obvious you did bring your own weight so for this judgement base rio score is enough.

    1) utilities, i would suggest a system where overall in a dungeon you are rated by the game based on your utility usage, interupt usage of 70% should grant a 5* rating, this gives leeway for players holding there interupt for a specific spell. packs where there is nothing to interupt should not count towards the uptime. interupts still count when overlapped on a casting mob, not when a mob isnt casting to avoid manipulation.

    Also extremely useful utilities like aoe stuns should be considered, these could even be intertwined into interupts as a buffer to reward well timed aoe stuns (waiting for multiple mobs to be casting) as a reward and a bonus addition to interupted mobs total rating. spells like knockbacks, ring of peace, silences could also buffer up the utilities rating.

    2) survivability, a similar skill based rating system for survival and excecution of mechanics, taking failure damage hurts your star rating (not in a ridiculously unforgiving way as everyone makes mistakes) but i would say the number of times you take failure damage in a dungeon would need to be to quite a high standard as when you push in the biggest keys it gets more and more unforgiving. i would suggest a system of 3 or less times taking failure damage 5* 5 or less 4.5* 7 or less 4* etc. the balance has to be competitive to keep the ladder and all the players in the same kind of level of keys that they belong.

    Another way to judge survivability is defensive usage. an uptime of 70% of big incoming damage would give 5* for example, another thing that is vital for pushing the highest level keys.

    An even better way would be to have a flat rate amount of damage incoming for that level key and have the defensive usage / gear setup (shields/versa) determine the star rating.

    Example being the bleed torment, that could be considered as a judgable incoming damage, if a mage iceblocks then all of that damage is avoided. 5* if he then eats all of the damage 2nd boss spires without using iceblock thats 2*, at the end of the dungeon all is calculated 3.5*

    Buffers to survivability could be gained by using healpots within 3 seconds of taking a big hit (while pot is off cd)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    In a nutshell what this system would do would see players getting declined for keys due to there actual ability to play there class rather than base rio/ilvl/classviability. this would force them to go down in key levels in order to practice and learn the content to the point where there star rating for ability will improve.

    Now what about new players that will be mega bad in the beginning and then be stuck with 2* rating? simple, have a hard reset every 4 weeks or so.

    EVERYONE has something to work towards, shadowlands in my opinion hasnt been a massive failure due to the content, its due to the difficulty scaling with everyone able to complete the content insanely quickly and not having a reason to log in, "the alt friendly expansion" has really hurt the wow playerbase.

    The players being bad at the game is not the problem, the problem with the game is there is no rating system or way to identify the best players or players that are good enough for that level, if you play m+ you know that if you miss the first weeks your basically screwed for the rest of the season, it doesnt matter how good you are, the only way you can climb the ladder is if you are lucky with pugs which is nothing more than a roll of the dice. joining endless pugs where the players arent good enough for the level is tedious to say the least. especially if your playing for 20 hours over a week in m+ and achieving zero score simply due to players that dont belong in that level key making new mistakes because they didnt learn yet.

    This leads to a lot of unsubs in my opinion, players who play there class incredibly well but do not get rewarded for it watching on as new players who fail repeatidly in every key have more rio and go from group to group to group getting invites because there class is overpowered.

    Bad players do not know they are bad, they think they are doing everything right, this kind of system would highlight that actually they need to go back to the drawing board and adjust there mindset if they want to push higher keys.

    We have all seen it, your in a key and some ridiculously high rio player comes in makes loads of mistakes that cost the key and you find yourself asking "how the hell did he get that score" simple answer: he was lucky with groups. now with this system you would also be able to see his star ratings which would be low. it would give players a clear indication of a players general m+ ability, something that is vital for higher end keys.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    How would this effect the ladder system?

    In every which way positive

    The best players will be recognised with high star ratings thus invited to more groups, even if they were late to start you would see 1900 rio 5* 5* you could make a solid judgement based off this. check him out, oh he only started pushing this week and doesnt have any alternative week score. ask him the question "did you play previous expansions m+" he replies "yes i was world 5 in bfa". so your not obliviously declining top level players because they have no way to prove to you that they can play other than a blind rio score.

    The bad players will get to see that there performance needs to improve to push higher keys and will play lower keys in order to practice/learn/increase there skill level.

    Just a thought, give everyone something to play for. not just free handout 2500 rio to everyone who was born from his mother and decides to log in.

    It would also combat the boosting issue at least in a small way.
    Last edited by SaveWowSomehoww; 2021-10-02 at 01:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Welcome to the forums!

  3. #3
    Just make the groups yourself if you can't get invited...

  4. #4
    Just remove the dog ass system that keys deplete upon failure and stop punishing people for mistakes so heavily.

    Give 100% of the loot regardless of completion speed, leave the key on the level it was.

    Give more loot if intime and increase the key level.

    Remove all M+ related APIs.

    There, m+ toxicity solved in an instant.

  5. #5
    You should start describing what the problem is with the current system. How that problem is the fault of the current system. And only then how you would change it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    You should start describing what the problem is with the current system. How that problem is the fault of the current system. And only then how you would change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    You should start describing what the problem is with the current system. How that problem is the fault of the current system. And only then how you would change it.
    The current problem is the difficulty in climbing the ladder doesnt come with the fun part, how hard stuff hits / how much hp it has / the route that needs to be made different at higher ilvl, the current problem is the game is hard due to how bad the majority of players are trying to push, basics not done, no healing pots used, barely interupting and when they are interupting its some random spell that they happened to notice that doesnt even do anything of note. mages eating the full bleed of torment instead of using 1 gcd so the healer is free for the next 10-15seconds to dps rather than having to stand there spamming healing spells on the mage because the mage is oblivious that he is bad. these kinds of things have a knock on effect to the party and the timing of keys.

    This system would fix that in so many ways, not only would it help good players climb but it would also help bad players improve, which would make the community far happier and in my honest opinion FAR less toxic as people wouldnt be spending hours running with bad players in content they shouldnt ever of been in in the first place therefore they would be far less resentful.

    I mean imagine the scenario, you invite a player 2600 5* 5* and he fails something basic, you know its a one off mistake from him, everyones human everyone makes mistakes so its easier to take. rather than inviting a 2500 player who is 2* 2* and he depletes the key, the 8th key he has depleted of the day, it would be your own fault for inviting someone with such a low ability. currently these 2* 2* 2500 players are running riot in m+ and this is exactly what is making the game so hard to climb.

    Personally i wouldnt find it bad to see a ratings system like this, even if it meant i was 2star something, i would at least know where i need to improve my game i could go away and improve which is what the community currently lacks hugely, currently everyone is just bottlenecked into 22s/23s with the bad players having no idea that they are the reason why there is a huge blockage because they are oblivious that they are bad, its not there fault they are new to the game, its blizzards fault for stealth boosting them every patch in order for them to feel good too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgran View Post
    Just make the groups yourself if you can't get invited...
    Getting invites isnt the problem, its the level of the players that are playing in the higher level keys that are halting everyone.

    There is no balance / skillcap it is a one size fits all (in most cases)

    Make an 18 lobby and see there is nobody signing, make a 19 lobby and see there is nobody signing, make a 22 lobby and watch as it fills within 30 seconds of 2400-2500 players. its a severely bottlenecked system where all the bad players are mixed in with the good due to all the stealth buffs blizzard have been handing out. add in other ways to get boosted like class overpoweredness and covenents and you have some of the newest players up in 22/23 keys.

    They arent going to know they are bad, they are just going by what they think is the right way to judge, the rio system, they will be telling themselves they are as good as someone who was world 5 in previous expansions having ran 1000+ 20-25 keys and they will genuinely believe they are as good because the rio system tells them they are if not better.
    Last edited by SaveWowSomehoww; 2021-10-02 at 01:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Just remove the dog ass system that keys deplete upon failure and stop punishing people for mistakes so heavily.

    Give 100% of the loot regardless of completion speed, leave the key on the level it was.

    Give more loot if intime and increase the key level.

    Remove all M+ related APIs.

    There, m+ toxicity solved in an instant.
    imo there is a lot of truth in this.

    it indeed has negative side effects and there are some more fine granular things to think about, game design wise. BUT: the general base ground of this comment totally aims in the right direction, imo.

    at least for me personally the most prominent thing that drives me more and more away from the game or at least m+ is the huge amount of wasted time.

    overall i can live with the system.
    overall i can live with the timer/counter design.
    overall i can live with depleted keys.
    overall i can live with toxcity.

    but: at monday i look back what i have done. looking at my results and it is sooooo fucked up HOW much time i wasted into m+.

    i am 245 item level with all 16s and 17s. no guild, just pugging. and i dont care about much. but its so fucked up how much time you waste in m+. i do raiding too (hc only) but thats done wednesday or thursday night. i play 1 235+ equipped alt too. and i do all in pugs at the moment, cause of RL shedule.

    that said and for that type of player the m+ system could DEFINETELY be better designed. i dont know how much players are of these type and if solely guild running players even care… i dont have Blizzards data. but to me, m+ feels not designed well from the start.

    the whole system is designed to lead to toxcity. toxcity leads to leaves. leaves leads to depleted keys. depleted keys leads to a lot of wasted time. as quoted poster said, remove APIs, remove depleteing and maybe give something like Desserteur Debuff to pug grps only (less than 2 members of same guild in example) and ppl would start to try to overcome hurdles, learn and improve. instead of /spit, being toxic and leave for the slightest things. while 3 other ppl lost time and 1 guy have to invest much time again (the depleted key owner).

    imo m+ and the surounding environment is a sort of a fail design, because it supports and leads to things (even meta wise) that make the experience and the game overall more bad than it has to be. and if some design leads to bad game experiences it simply cant be a good design.

    and caution here: this is not subjective. its an objective fact that ppl waste time in m+. and nobody can tell me ppls are happy with wasting time. its an argument to say „but if someone cant just leave…“ thats another story. but the sole fact that time is wasted can make NOBODY happy. noone on this planet go like „yeah today i go wasting time for nothing, this will be fun“. thats stupid. and this doesnt mean there have to be rewards for nothing. its not the same thing, the other way around.

    imo some m+ design is possible without wasting that much time into it. thats why i would change some things in the overall m+ environment, the same way quoted poster said.

    PS: the possibility, that „not wasting time“ in game content is something Blizzard will not like, cause of stretching things, … well,… thats a totally different story.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-10-02 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #8
    The three things that I see needing changed are as follows.

    Remove the mythic chest and have 20s drop mythic gear fuck this time sink rng bullshit

    Change the scoring system so low and untimed keys reward less io while higher above 15 keys reward progressively more so people who want a one and done don't need to filter out anyone below 2100.

    Make the difficulty a ui element instead of the annoying and tedious key system that just pisses off pugs and inconveniences groups. If I wanna run the same dungeon 20 times with a group that should be my choice.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SaveWowSomehoww View Post
    The current problem is the difficulty in climbing the ladder doesnt come with the fun part, how hard stuff hits / how much hp it has / the route that needs to be made different at higher ilvl, the current problem is the game is hard due to how bad the majority of players are trying to push, basics not done, no healing pots used, barely interupting and when they are interupting its some random spell that they happened to notice that doesnt even do anything of note. mages eating the full bleed of torment instead of using 1 gcd so the healer is free for the next 10-15seconds to dps rather than having to stand there spamming healing spells on the mage because the mage is oblivious that he is bad. these kinds of things have a knock on effect to the party and the timing of keys.

    This system would fix that in so many ways, not only would it help good players climb but it would also help bad players improve, which would make the community far happier and in my honest opinion FAR less toxic as people wouldnt be spending hours running with bad players in content they shouldnt ever of been in in the first place therefore they would be far less resentful.

    I mean imagine the scenario, you invite a player 2600 5* 5* and he fails something basic, you know its a one off mistake from him, everyones human everyone makes mistakes so its easier to take. rather than inviting a 2500 player who is 2* 2* and he depletes the key, the 8th key he has depleted of the day, it would be your own fault for inviting someone with such a low ability. currently these 2* 2* 2500 players are running riot in m+ and this is exactly what is making the game so hard to climb.

    Personally i wouldnt find it bad to see a ratings system like this, even if it meant i was 2star something, i would at least know where i need to improve my game i could go away and improve which is what the community currently lacks hugely, currently everyone is just bottlenecked into 22s/23s with the bad players having no idea that they are the reason why there is a huge blockage because they are oblivious that they are bad, its not there fault they are new to the game, its blizzards fault for stealth boosting them every patch in order for them to feel good too.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Getting invites isnt the problem, its the level of the players that are playing in the higher level keys that are halting everyone.

    There is no balance / skillcap it is a one size fits all (in most cases)

    Make an 18 lobby and see there is nobody signing, make a 19 lobby and see there is nobody signing, make a 22 lobby and watch as it fills within 30 seconds of 2400-2500 players. its a severely bottlenecked system where all the bad players are mixed in with the good due to all the stealth buffs blizzard have been handing out. add in other ways to get boosted like class overpoweredness and covenents and you have some of the newest players up in 22/23 keys.

    They arent going to know they are bad, they are just going by what they think is the right way to judge, the rio system, they will be telling themselves they are as good as someone who was world 5 in previous expansions having ran 1000+ 20-25 keys and they will genuinely believe they are as good because the rio system tells them they are if not better.

    So you are @odamienskii confirmed. This is the same thing -- almost exact same points being addressed -- as you made in your last threads before you went toxic and attacked everybody.


    Why not just wait for your main account to be unbanned? You don't think this one is about to be?

    The Jailer is basically Thanos... he's collecting the Infinity Stones Covenant Sigils to attain ultimate power. Then all he needs to do is simply snap his fingers, then *poof* there goes 50% of WoW's subscribers.

    All of this time we thought Blizzard was hard at work on our games. As it turns out, they were just hard at work.

  10. #10
    Remove the whole thing and remove the timer from dungeons, it's toxic as fuck.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    imo there is a lot of truth in this.

    it indeed has negative side effects and there are some more fine granular things to think about, game design wise. BUT: the general base ground of this comment totally aims in the right direction, imo.

    at least for me personally the most prominent thing that drives me more and more away from the game or at least m+ is the huge amount of wasted time.

    overall i can live with the system.
    overall i can live with the timer/counter design.
    overall i can live with depleted keys.
    overall i can live with toxcity.

    but: at monday i look back what i have done. looking at my results and it is sooooo fucked up HOW much time i wasted into m+.

    i am 245 item level with all 16s and 17s. no guild, just pugging. and i dont care about much. but its so fucked up how much time you waste in m+. i do raiding too (hc only) but thats done wednesday or thursday night. i play 1 235+ equipped alt too. and i do all in pugs at the moment, cause of RL shedule.

    that said and for that type of player the m+ system could DEFINETELY be better designed. i dont know how much players are of these type and if solely guild running players even care… i dont have Blizzards data. but to me, m+ feels not designed well from the start.

    the whole system is designed to lead to toxcity. toxcity leads to leaves. leaves leads to depleted keys. depleted keys leads to a lot of wasted time. as quoted poster said, remove APIs, remove depleteing and maybe give something like Desserteur Debuff to pug grps only (less than 2 members of same guild in example) and ppl would start to try to overcome hurdles, learn and improve. instead of /spit, being toxic and leave for the slightest things. while 3 other ppl lost time and 1 guy have to invest much time again (the depleted key owner).

    imo m+ and the surounding environment is a sort of a fail design, because it supports and leads to things (even meta wise) that make the experience and the game overall more bad than it has to be. and if some design leads to bad game experiences it simply cant be a good design.

    and caution here: this is not subjective. its an objective fact that ppl waste time in m+. and nobody can tell me ppls are happy with wasting time. its an argument to say „but if someone cant just leave…“ thats another story. but the sole fact that time is wasted can make NOBODY happy. noone on this planet go like „yeah today i go wasting time for nothing, this will be fun“. thats stupid. and imo some m+ design is possible without wasting that much time into it. thats why i would change some things in the overall m+ environment, the same way quoted poster said.

    that „not wasting time“ in game content is something Blizzard will not like, cause of stretching things, … well,… thats a totally different story.
    maybe dont waste time in m+ only do it with guildies ? thats just suggestion

    thats what we do - thats why good players on 230 alts dont have any problems doing 15/16s and people with 240 are without problem doing 18+ dungeons.

    so much of problems faced could be solved with people just fidning proper guild

    but reality is also a bit different - most people who claim how amazing they are are infact very bad at game and want others to carry them

    dont trust me ? every guild have those people

    which people ? those when asked if anyone wants to do their key are met with dead silence - but then 5 minutes later when good player logs in and is asking the same question had 5+ answers about people willing to do stuff

    why ? because they know it wont be a carry only that he will perform there.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    maybe dont waste time in m+ only do it with guildies ? thats just suggestion

    thats what we do - thats why good players on 230 alts dont have any problems doing 15/16s and people with 240 are without problem doing 18+ dungeons.

    so much of problems faced could be solved with people just fidning proper guild

    but reality is also a bit different - most people who claim how amazing they are are infact very bad at game and want others to carry them

    dont trust me ? every guild have those people

    which people ? those when asked if anyone wants to do their key are met with dead silence - but then 5 minutes later when good player logs in and is asking the same question had 5+ answers about people willing to do stuff

    why ? because they know it wont be a carry only that he will perform there.
    yep, totally sign that. game is better factor 100 when doing what you said. had that in past. totally agree.

    that said: not everyone can adapt their live to guild shematics. i am more than 40 years old and at the moment a guild simply dont work. there are, even for m+, 4 other ppls, that rely on your shedule and you have to plan things. at least a bit. also my main free time at the moment is in the night. not something many guildies are found for.

    this is no excuse. but:

    IF you offer that gameplay system in wow without the „for guilds only“ marker, THEN you have to do it also right, for the ppl that dont go with guilds. if Blizzard a few years ago had clearly declared WoW as a game „solely playbale with guilds“ and not offered systems for pug ppls, i am totally fine with „get a guild. if you cant or wont, wow is not for you. period.“. but this is not what happened.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    The three things that I see needing changed are as follows.

    Remove the mythic chest and have 20s drop mythic gear fuck this time sink rng bullshit

    Change the scoring system so low and untimed keys reward less io while higher above 15 keys reward progressively more so people who want a one and done don't need to filter out anyone below 2100.

    Make the difficulty a ui element instead of the annoying and tedious key system that just pisses off pugs and inconveniences groups. If I wanna run the same dungeon 20 times with a group that should be my choice.
    2100 is extremly low .io though

    really good players start around 2500

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    yep, totally sign that. game is better factor 100 when doing what you said. had that in past. totally agree.

    that said: not everyone can adapt their live to guild shematics. i am more than 40 years old and at the moment a guild simply dont work. there are, even for m+, 4 other ppls, that rely on your shedule and you have to plan things. even a bit. also my main free time at the moment is in the night. not something many guildies are found for.

    this is no excuse. but:

    IF you offer that gameplay system in wow without the „for guilds only“ marker, THEN you have to do it also right, for the ppl that dont go with guilds. if Blizzard a few years ago had clearly declared WoW as a game „solely playbale with guilds“ and not offered systems for pug ppls, i am totally fine with „get a guild. if you cant wow is not for you. period.“. but this is not what happened.
    so maybe its time accept that the limit of what you will do is +_15. and dont even try to push further.

    that is extremly easy this tier. anyone who can press 5 buttons and have basic understanding of how dungoen layout looks can get KSM in pugs.

    just do push further if you are limited by irl issues. it save so much frustration

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    So you are @odamienskii confirmed. This is the same thing -- almost exact same points being addressed -- as you made in your last threads before you went toxic and attacked everybody.


    Why not just wait for your main account to be unbanned? You don't think this one is about to be?
    not sure about your results here. the other account has ~300 posts and is 1 year. this account is 3700 posts and 10 years. if your assumption is true, you confused his main account with his temp account.

    because his temp account is banned. and this (his main account) is unbanned.

    or something is wrong…. or i just dont get it…. or…. i dont know…

  15. #15
    M+ is fine as it is. There are like almost no problem with it.

    Your "solutions" for non-existing problem is just waste of time and resources. It wouldn't provide anything, but cause more chaos and increase the toxicity of the WoW community.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    2100 is extremly low .io though
    This is just wrong and stupid.
    Last edited by Eazy; 2021-10-02 at 03:11 PM.

  16. #16
    Problem is, you are pugging a system designed for groups, that's why there isn't a LFM+ function. Stop pugging something designed for groups and all your problems go away.

    If anything blizzard should lock M+ to 4 guildies and 1 pug at most, that would instantly kill any and all toxicity. Yes it would kill a lot of m+ as well, but that is the ONLY way you get rid of it.

    Blacklists? People leave anyways
    No loot for 2 weeks? People leave anyways
    No timer? Keys are piss easy and rewards now need to be in line so 226 gear
    Free to choose your key? "LFM Mists!" "LFM Mmists" "LF mists" -> Forum thread on here
    "I've been looking for DoS all day but people only run mists T,T"
    20s now reward mythic gear? "Full 252 or no HC inv"

    There are 2 choices, get rid of pug groups, or deal with the byproducts of not knowing the people in your run.

    That said the keys I have pugged have all worked out very well except maybe 2 or 3, how? Get everyone on
    discord, state your goals with the run, when someone doesn't know what to do, tell them and help them.

    What you need to do to complete a key increases all the time, there is no "1 strategy fits all" type of thing, if you
    are running 15s you get away with interrupting the wrong spells sometimes, if you are running 20s you don't,
    if you are running 22s you need to work with Chain CCs and interrupts, 24s it's important those Chain CCs are
    at exactly the right time.

    There is always some skip or trick, positioning or something you can learn, even if you are a great m+ player, and
    often these are not even intended by blizzard, so making a system to score players won't work.
    How do I score you if you know what spells to interrupt, but you don't know the advanced double invis skip in DoS
    for instance?
    How do you score a tank that didn't manage CDs well enough to be able to pull 1-2 packs on top of halkias in HoA?
    How do you score a mage that doesn't know how to help out interrupts on huge caster packs in Sanguine with
    dragon breath but uses his normal interrupt just fine? How about a shaman that doesn't have dragonbreath? Incap
    totem is very different.
    Last edited by Sialina; 2021-10-02 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    2100 is extremly low .io though

    really good players start around 2500

    - - - Updated - - -



    so maybe its time accept that the limit of what you will do is +_15. and dont even try to push further.

    that is extremly easy this tier. anyone who can press 5 buttons and have basic understanding of how dungoen layout looks can get KSM in pugs.

    just do push further if you are limited by irl issues. it save so much frustration
    cant agree to that. i play wow since 2005 without interruption in sub (yes, i have that bronce orc statue). and it wasnt THAT easy to pug it to KSM.

    it was way easier for my rdps. my melee was hard cause of tank pos dependency. SL isnt THE most melee friendly xpac. in season 1 my heal druid +15 was mid ground i would say. but KSM 15 in pugs was not LFR or something along those lines. not for me at least.

    i can agree to „you have to stop at 15. if you wanna go 20+ lf guild“. but its a shame for the devs and the game design to say so. then better do 2 different m+ versions. 1 for pugs, clearly ending at 15. and 1 for guilds. or somethin like that.

    but its horrible game design to offer the shit and then go „sadly our supported PUG system will not work for you because you cant pug +20. join a guild or fuck off.“ if i ever would do such things to our customers they would piss on me.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-10-02 at 03:12 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    2100 is extremly low .io though

    really good players start around 2500

    - - - Updated - - -



    so maybe its time accept that the limit of what you will do is +_15. and dont even try to push further.

    that is extremly easy this tier. anyone who can press 5 buttons and have basic understanding of how dungoen layout looks can get KSM in pugs.

    just do push further if you are limited by irl issues. it save so much frustration
    I honestly don't know... I gave up doing chests after only minor upgrades where left and just raid log now. I thought all 20s timed was 2400?

    Honestly I've not interacted with the system since I got more portals a month ago.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    cant agree to that. i play wow since 2005 without interruption in sub (yes, i have that bronce orc statue). and it wasnt THAT easy to pug it to KSM.

    it was way easier for my rdps. my melee was hard cause of tank pos dependency. SL isnt THE most melee friendly xpac. in season 1 my heal druid +15 was mid ground i would say. but KSM 15 in pugs was not LFR or something along those lines. not for me at least.

    i can agree to „you have to stop at 15. if you wanna go 20+ lf guild“. but its a shame for the devs and the game design to say so. then better do 2 different m+ versions. 1 for pugs, clearly ending at 15. and 1 for guilds. or somethin like that.

    but its horrible game design to offer the shit and then go „sadly our supported PUG system will not work for you because you cant pug +20. join a guild or fuck off.“ if i ever would do such things to our customers they would piss on me.
    15s are not the topic of discussion and do not need changing, you get top players in 15s just doing there weeklies, all the players that got shafted by class misbalance and dont play m+ this season due to this reason will be just doing there weekly 15s. getting keystone master is so easy because more often than not you have an exceptional player in the party that carries the key to in time regardless. its the exact same in 22s only the other way round. there is always someone that doesnt belong there destroying the key.

    As a healer main i notice immidiately who the baddies are with there defensive usage. then its just a case of can they not fail enough to time the key? nearly always the answer is no, they always manage to do just enough to screw the key, it is so tiring joining endless keys and seeing in the first 3 minutes who is bad and just having that feeling "this guy is gonna destroy this key" 15minutes later you hate being right all the time.

    Whether its getting hit by a conal and then releasing when the pack is on 5% hp so the next pack we have to 4man while the guy runs all through the dungeon, guys who do this you do not belong in high keys, its not a case of a mistake its a case of not being very good at the game, when you have ran 10.000 keys and died 3000 times it burns into your muscle memory that when you die have a quick look at the situation, is the pack nearly dead? do we have combat rez? how far is the spawn point? then within seconds make the decision based off this, not just instant release like a brand new to warcraft in shadowlands player? what are you doing in 22s? this system tells you that because you are 2500 rio you belong there. you do not, that is whats wrong with this game. new inexperienced players running a mock in 22s meaning nobody can go anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Remove the whole thing and remove the timer from dungeons, it's toxic as fuck.
    there is a version of that, its m0

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    2100 is extremly low .io though

    really good players start around 2500

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    so maybe its time accept that the limit of what you will do is +_15. and dont even try to push further.

    that is extremly easy this tier. anyone who can press 5 buttons and have basic understanding of how dungoen layout looks can get KSM in pugs.

    just do push further if you are limited by irl issues. it save so much frustration
    I disagree with really good players start at 2500, 2500 is like the cap for bad players that play alot, all you need to do is time all 21s which with time and dedication spamming keys in a +1 method (all 17s > all 18s > all 19s) etc as long as you have some basic game intelligence you can time 21s,

    The reason everyone is clustered around 2500 is because of all the bad players that are at there ceiling hindering everyone else. a bit like pvp in season 1 how all the new to pvp players all bottlenecked the ratings system so everyone had a 50% win rate, remember that? 1400-1600 50% win rate 1000 matches played, its the same thing happening in 2500 rio m+, the bad players (i was one of the bad pvpers btw) are making getting out of the bottleneck extremely difficult unless you are lucky to land in a party where all 5 players are good enough.

    of course there are exceptions, maybe a lot of exceptions i am talking about the majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I honestly don't know... I gave up doing chests after only minor upgrades where left and just raid log now. I thought all 20s timed was 2400?

    Honestly I've not interacted with the system since I got more portals a month ago.
    yes 20s is 2400, crazy easy to achieve, thats where this system has fallen flat on its face, EVERYONE can time all 21s, and for that reason nobody/very few can time all 22s not due to being bad but due to being in parties full of people that dont know how to play well enough consistently yet.
    Last edited by SaveWowSomehoww; 2021-10-02 at 04:46 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    cant agree to that. i play wow since 2005 without interruption in sub (yes, i have that bronce orc statue). and it wasnt THAT easy to pug it to KSM.

    it was way easier for my rdps. my melee was hard cause of tank pos dependency. SL isnt THE most melee friendly xpac. in season 1 my heal druid +15 was mid ground i would say. but KSM 15 in pugs was not LFR or something along those lines. not for me at least.

    i can agree to „you have to stop at 15. if you wanna go 20+ lf guild“. but its a shame for the devs and the game design to say so. then better do 2 different m+ versions. 1 for pugs, clearly ending at 15. and 1 for guilds. or somethin like that.

    but its horrible game design to offer the shit and then go „sadly our supported PUG system will not work for you because you cant pug +20. join a guild or fuck off.“ if i ever would do such things to our customers they would piss on me.
    lol no ? you know why +15s are so hard ? because they are filled with people who just want to get their ksm and be done - plus they are filled with 230 people desperate for 252 weekly gear.

    try liek 17s and you will see how much easier those are then 15s because htose are fileld with people interested to push so they have at least basic understanding of mechanics.

    as to melee ? thats just not true just play WW monk - every single group wants to have 1

    also i have very many succesfull groups in 19-20 with comps that had 2 melee

    you can do dungoens liek 17-19 with stupidest comps- just as long as people who are there know what they are doing - like yesterday i did top 18 with 2 mages and my low geared DH alt. and we timed it easily and smooth . but yes it was guild group

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