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  1. #81
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Bro, I didn't make that comparison. You did when you agreed with a guy who said the game was better when it didn't have M+.
    That's because it was. You're the one who tried to compare the two as the same. Try harder.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    That's because it was. You're the one who tried to compare the two as the same. Try harder.
    And you are still factually wrong for the same reasons I mentioned. Try being less wrong.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    im not, many people think this game was much better be4 cm became m+
    "You and your friends" may be enough for you to say "many", but it's still just anecdotal evidence at best
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  4. #84
    I've seen people be wrong before, but this is the big wrong.

  5. #85
    M+ is probably the single greatest feature ever added to the game. There for sure are plenty of ways to improve it - but those involve doubling down on the existing systems (new affixes, more dungeons, rewarding higher key pushes) not fundamentally changing them.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I don’t get why it’s good that players have to stick with someone who is underperforming. They should never have joined the group in the first place if they are not able to pull their own weight.
    If people just go off of IO score, and that is really all we have to go off of, you can get people with a decent score who just can't keep up. Expecting players to police themselves is just peeing in the wind.
    Me thinks Chromie has a whole lot of splaining to do!

  7. #87
    The only time I invite somebody to my M+ groups solely based on R.IO score is if they are at least 2700.


    Last week I was doing a +21 and a tank queued up with his current season rating at around 1900 with no +20's timed (item level was like 230-ish) but his main's M+ score (who was also a tank) was 2750 or so. I didn't even hesitate and invited him. Perhaps that specific character's item level and accomplishments were kind of low for a +21, but his knowledge of pulls and reactivity to everything more than made up for it. He definitely played like a 2700+ tank instead of a 1800 tank with no +20's timed.


    I suppose you could get carried to the 2700 and higher range, but that's really a long shot I think. At around 2600-2700 everybody in your group needs to be on the fucking ball in order to even get that high.
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2021-10-10 at 12:03 PM.

  8. #88
    M+ and R.io is the only reason me and my husband and friends still play, sometimes we are just 4 and we take on a pug, but usually not.

    Something a lot of people seem to forget is, when pugs constantly fail, they stop happening, just look at how the groupfinder was dying in cataclysm and those heroics were easy compared to 20+ keys. If you didn't have R.io, the chance of failure would simply be too high for pugs to be worthwhile.

    Like the poster above, we also take on low geared alts with high R.io on their main over people with medium rio and high gear.
    If you bother to install the R.io client, you can click on people and get a link to their character, if someone was boosted it'll be really obvious 99% of the time, I've never once gotten a boosted player in a run because we simply don't take them.
    Example: You see someone apply with 2100ish score, you check their rio, they have a 15 completed in every dungeon, one on Tyrannical one on Fortified, yeah, boosted guy, he won't be joining.

    R.io is a great tool for keeping boosted shitters out of your group-

    Edit-

    With the popularity of M+ I'd like the reward structure expanded a little if I could pick something to change, maybe some Tmog, some additional mount, some pet? What at what rating? I don't know but I think everything from 10 up to at least 20, maybe even 25 current season difficulty should have some reward every few steps. Also Tazavesh sholuld've been m+ ready quite a lot earlier, 9.2 feels late for such a cool dungeon to sit semi unused.
    Last edited by Sialina; 2021-10-10 at 12:36 PM.

  9. #89
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    "You and your friends" may be enough for you to say "many", but it's still just anecdotal evidence at best
    Not really. Look at how active the community was compared with now.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Not really. Look at how active the community was compared with now.
    That might mean something if the activity level of the community was entirely predicated based on M+ but it's not.

    A lot of people do hate m+. I see them here all the time and I know a lot of them in my guild and social circles. But just as many also really love m+ and I know quite a lot of people for whom that is their primary end-game and largely what they play for. I think it's safe to say it's a polarising activity much more than an unpopular one.

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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    That might mean something if the activity level of the community was entirely predicated based on M+ but it's not.

    A lot of people do hate m+. I see them here all the time and I know a lot of them in my guild and social circles. But just as many also really love m+ and I know quite a lot of people for whom that is their primary end-game and largely what they play for. I think it's safe to say it's a polarising activity much more than an unpopular one.
    and i can tell you exacly why a lot of people hate m+ with passion

    because m+ are kinda antithesis of mmorpg.

    the core aspect of mmorpgs as historicaly - you play against chalenges to get gear/spells/skills/items which allow you to make those chalenges trivial and let you be overpowered god while playing content X

    in case of m+ you cant be that as they never end. so it feels futile to ever even start .

    sure you can get to 252 and faceroll +15 - but then - what is the point as it takes you 4+ months and is boring like hell after 2-3 weeks.

    most people refuse to run on hamsterwheel . and those are people who hate m+ .

  12. #92
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    the core aspect of mmorpgs as historicaly - you play against chalenges to get gear/spells/skills/items which allow you to make those chalenges trivial and let you be overpowered god while playing content X

    in case of m+ you cant be that as they never end. so it feels futile to ever even start .
    Uh... Why do those two statements seem contradictory? How does M+ system not reward players who challenge themselves to higher difficulty with higher loot?

    Granted there's a cap on the loot to 246 EoD and 252 weekly GV but beyond that there's still dungeon teleport rewards at +20.

    Now going beyond +20s, sure there's no additional reward aside from bragging rights that XYZ team completed the highest key so far to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    most people refuse to run on hamsterwheel . and those are people who hate m+ .
    I think those people should also re-evaluate if they want to play MMORPGs which by nature have a ton of grind in them.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    most people refuse to run on hamsterwheel . and those are people who hate m+ .
    Sounds an awful lot like you've conflated the term "most people" with your own singular opinion. The amount of engagement that M+ has is unparalleled. I'd wager it's even higher than LFR raiding due to its accessibility. The people who hate M+ are the ones who think that a MMO should only be about raiding. And guess what? WoW already did that. It was called Warlords of Draenor. Something tells me we won't be seeing that again.
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  14. #94
    I read your entire post OP. The problem you posit could be much more easily solved by just making keys not degrade on failure. The solutions you suggest are extremely convoluted and will cause a cascade of many other problems. Find another game to play if you're not having fun in m+, or keep at it if you do, a different rating system won't change it for you.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiffums View Post
    If people just go off of IO score, and that is really all we have to go off of, you can get people with a decent score who just can't keep up. Expecting players to police themselves is just peeing in the wind.
    And would it then be a bad thing if we were able to freely reset the key and replace the underperforming player? I don’t see why it would be bad.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Sounds an awful lot like you've conflated the term "most people" with your own singular opinion. The amount of engagement that M+ has is unparalleled. I'd wager it's even higher than LFR raiding due to its accessibility. The people who hate M+ are the ones who think that a MMO should only be about raiding. And guess what? WoW already did that. It was called Warlords of Draenor. Something tells me we won't be seeing that again.
    If you could clear raids lets say two times a week, people would clear it two times a week.

    Nah. I dont want to see m+ removed, but it clearly has obvious issues. And ofc 5 man content will always gain more traction then big raids. You can spam m+ all day everyday, you cant with raids. You only need 4 others, in raids you need atleast 9 others(most of the time, more). You also get very good gear from it while avoiding having to play with alot of people.

    Theres no raid schedule either. You can literally at any time of day find a grp for a dungeon and clear it. Thats not the case for pug raids. when pugging raids your best chances are wed night or fri/sat night.

    But in the end - I think m+(dungeons in general) need changes. It used to be something everyone did alot. Thats not the case anymore. Fewer and fewer people like the dungeon m+ system and those that are around either sit at 20+ crying about few players, while the rest struggle like hell to reach relevant rio/m+ score.

    Dungeons used to be a activity I did a whole lot, but since m+ was put in the game it has dwindled. In SL I have barely touched it, no point. Cant be bothered with the obvious shitshow it is to gain rank score, only to collect the same items that drops in every difficulty setting.

    Im happy for the people that do like m+ and the vault system, but tbh I really doubt the masses of wow players find it entertaining.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    I read your entire post OP. The problem you posit could be much more easily solved by just making keys not degrade on failure. The solutions you suggest are extremely convoluted and will cause a cascade of many other problems. Find another game to play if you're not having fun in m+, or keep at it if you do, a different rating system won't change it for you.
    Yeah I dont get why the key gotta degrade on failure. Ok the run failed, shouldnt the key just stay at the lvl its at? It just creates friction and toxic dungeon runs. The whole m+ system need changes, and those changes should probably not be for the big tryhards that sits on 20+ keys. The masses of MMORPG players aint there, at all.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Sounds an awful lot like you've conflated the term "most people" with your own singular opinion. The amount of engagement that M+ has is unparalleled. I'd wager it's even higher than LFR raiding due to its accessibility. The people who hate M+ are the ones who think that a MMO should only be about raiding. And guess what? WoW already did that. It was called Warlords of Draenor. Something tells me we won't be seeing that again.
    oh this is definetly true i agree 100 % (also not sure what suggest you that i said people hate m+ - many openly refuse to do them because its boring)

    and you know why ? because blizzard nerf the usual season buff this time

    and +15 is tuned like +11-12 last tier. this means anyone who wants/tries can get their precious 252 in GV this tier .

    and participation ratio rose sighificantly

    in comparison raid participation rate are at all time low. why ? because SoD is crazy overtuned just like multiple tiers before it

    this shows how all content should be tuned in wow - around 30-40% easier - then much much more people would participate

    does this mean that good players would be done in 2 week ? superb - game should be never tuned around top 5% .

    it quite funny too - i wonder dont you see the irony then someone who facerolls +15 (which is tuned like first 3 hc bosses ) gets the same rewards as person who kills many mythic bosses which are way way way harder ? funny imo
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-10-12 at 06:54 AM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    oh this is definetly true i agree 100 % (also not sure what suggest you that i said people hate m+ - many openly refuse to do them because its boring)

    and you know why ? because blizzard nerf the usual season buff this time

    and +15 is tuned like +11-12 last tier. this means anyone who wants/tries can get their precious 252 in GV this tier .

    and participation ratio rose sighificantly

    in comparison raid participation rate are at all time low. why ? because SoD is crazy overtuned just like multiple tiers before it

    this shows how all content should be tuned in wow - around 30-40% easier - then much much more people would participate

    does this mean that good players would be done in 2 week ? superb - game should be never tuned around top 5% .

    it quite funny too - i wonder dont you see the irony then someone who facerolls +15 (which is tuned like first 3 hc bosses ) gets the same rewards as person who kills many mythic bosses which are way way way harder ? funny imo
    There's a whole lot of unsubstantiated guesswork going on there. I'll give you that M+ is easier this season but I think that has more to do with people just getting better at the dungeons over the course of an expansion than it does the seasonal affix.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    There's a whole lot of unsubstantiated guesswork going on there. I'll give you that M+ is easier this season but I think that has more to do with people just getting better at the dungeons over the course of an expansion than it does the seasonal affix.
    nah people are still terrible at dungeons even on like 17-20.

    it has been proven again and again that people dont get better with time - all what happens is that eventually they overgear stuff to certain degree and are able to brute force through stuff.

    its 100 % about dungeons being much easier this tier. and because they are easier and peopel have VP/252 from GV they overpower so much stuff in there so much faster.

  20. #100
    The IO system is such a pain in the ass on alts. It actually drives me nuts trying to pug keys, you can see my main's score, you can see I'm a CE raider, you can see my ilvl yet still can't get an invite. It's not like I'm trying to bring a 220 character into a 15, I have some 245+ alts that cannot get into a 15 for the life of me. I'm sorry my 4th alt is missing times on a few dungeons, get over it.
    Last edited by shyguybman; 2021-10-12 at 09:08 AM.

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