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  1. #1

    Some suggestions on the penalty system of this forum.

    I have made these points in topics of the banned people subforum but since those are naturally heated and almost no users of the forum actually read: I think it makes sense to make a summary of my points here.

    1. First of all I think the system is just too harsh; what I mean is the current system effectively may give months of banning to people that do minor things like "minor troll-ish behavior that is not exactly fully trolling" (even the label of the infraction itself is "minor spam") because the current system works basically as follows: "get a few infractions and even if they're minor things: you're gonna get a major banhammer on your head for weeks!" (because the system works in a way that the infractions overlap and they accumulate points).

    2. I believe the first step to improve this is to just reduce the penalties; for example: when you give weeks now for "minor spam": you not only punish someone: you basically tell them to never come back because for human minds for video gaming: that time frame is so long that is basically forever for most people; if you want practical rehabilitation to their behavior then even accumulated points should give them no more than a week or 10 days or max 2 weeks for minor transgressions because the sentence should fit the crime.

    3. At the end of the day the accumulation of points system may just be a suboptimal approach; most other communities seem to do better with a per-violation basis; in practice that would mean: if they do "minor spam": give them immediately up to like 10 days which is extremely longer than most other forums and keep the weeks and months(!) for people with extremely serious violations like personal attacks that are off topic and vulgar (and the permanent bans for threats against life and other such illegal acts).

  2. #2
    I've stated before that getting weeks banned for "minor spam" is ridiculous. I don't have the solution, but there's clearly a problem there.

  3. #3
    Or, and here's a simple solution: Don't do dumb shit so frequently that you end up suffering major consequences for minor infractions?

    Problem solved.

    If the system keeps handing you harsher and harsher penalties for doing the same dumb shit over and over again, it's not an issue with the system, its a pebkac issue.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Or, and here's a simple solution: Don't do dumb shit so frequently that you end up suffering major consequences for minor infractions?

    Problem solved.

    If the system keeps handing you harsher and harsher penalties for doing the same dumb shit over and over again, it's not an issue with the system, its a pebkac issue.
    The problem with your response, is that the punishment should fit the crime. When a moderator here gives "minor spam" we're literally talking about minor stuff; these are posts that about 50% of the people here would find them OK and the rest 50% would say "eh: it might be minor trolling but yeah: not too much" so pretty obviously: giving weeks of banning to people that do something so "objectively subjective" is pretty unfit for the case (so it's why I think most communities do way better with a per-violation basis (e.g. even if you do want to be harsh: give 10 days to minor stuff but not weeks! (and do it by giving them the sentence immediately with no accumulation of points at all (if you want to ban them permanently after a long history of serious violations: use the history and judge))).

  5. #5
    It's why I stopped posting in off topic here and rather just go to Reddit now. Risk of ban is just too damn high. I don't even know why the OT forum is still here, a relic of the past.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    I don't even know why the OT forum is still here, a relic of the past.
    It's basically Politics-lite now, with nothing but News topics.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    It's why I stopped posting in off topic here and rather just go to Reddit now. Risk of ban is just too damn high. I don't even know why the OT forum is still here, a relic of the past.
    I think the punishment is just unfit for the crime. If you jaywalk and you're caught you should not go to prison for 10 years; if you are caught 10 times jaywalking: you still shouldn't go 10 years to prison; you should just get 10 times the fine that fits the crime or at least something less than 10 years!11.

    In practice I feel like communities that do one-offs do way better for it and it doesn't even have to be too lenient and you can tune it; e.g. ElitistJerks did extremely harsh punishments on the 1st transgression and it worked perfectly for their goals and more casual forums than here may do 3 days.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The problem with your response, is that the punishment should fit the crime. When a moderator here gives "minor spam" we're literally talking about minor stuff; these are posts that about 50% of the people here would find them OK and the rest 50% would say "eh: it might be minor trolling but yeah: not too much" so pretty obviously: giving weeks of banning to people that do something so "objectively subjective" is pretty unfit for the case (so it's why I think most communities do way better with a per-violation basis (e.g. even if you do want to be harsh: give 10 days to minor stuff but not weeks! (and do it by giving them the sentence immediately with no accumulation of points at all (if you want to ban them permanently after a long history of serious violations: use the history and judge))).
    So what you are saying is that you don't actually understand how the penalty system works here.

    Nobody gets "weeks" worth of bans simply for "minor spam". They get weeks worth of bans because they have been hit with "minor spam" infractions repeatedly. So repeatedly that they should have learned by now not to do it.

    The penalty system here punishes you in increasing severity for repeated violations. If you are getting "weeks" worth of bans for minor shit, it's because you have earned it. Literally. Not because the system is being unfair.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Or, and here's a simple solution: Don't do dumb shit so frequently that you end up suffering major consequences for minor infractions?

    Problem solved.

    If the system keeps handing you harsher and harsher penalties for doing the same dumb shit over and over again, it's not an issue with the system, its a pebkac issue.
    The problem is that in this forum "dumb shit" is asking an obvious troll if they are trolling.

    I literally got infracted once simply because I called an obvious burner account making a "WoW is dead" thread... a "troll".

    And thus it's hard to keep track of every little thing the dear mods here find inflammatory and ban-worthy.

  10. #10
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    System should be harsher imo. I've been banned as well, so this isn't coming from some ivory tower.
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The problem is that in this forum "dumb shit" is asking an obvious troll if they are trolling.

    I literally got infracted once simply because I called an obvious burner account making a "WoW is dead" thread... a "troll".

    And thus it's hard to keep track of every little thing the dear mods here find inflammatory and ban-worthy.
    You clearly remember that it's not a good idea to call an obvious burner account a troll, so it sounds like the system has the intended effect for you.

    I've had 7 bans for minor flaming in the 10 years I've had here, I still only get a day at a time or something... if you're getting banned for weeks for minor trolling or whatever it's because you do it far too often.

    There is no objective measure of "punishment that fits the crime"; this is a private forum. You have perfectly good options if you disagree with the system. Admittedly, one of those options is whining.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2021-10-03 at 09:32 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You clearly remember that it's not a good idea to call an obvious burner account a troll, so it sounds like the system has the intended effect for you.

    I've had 7 bans for minor flaming in the 10 years I've had here, I still only get a day at a time or something... if you're getting banned for weeks for minor trolling or whatever it's because you do it far too often.

    There is no objective measure of "punishment that fits the crime"; this is a private forum. You have perfectly good options if you disagree with the system. Admittedly, one of those options is whining.
    This. I've been here as registered user for ten years, a few more as lurker, i've been banned just once or twice, for a couple thousand posts. If you're banned for weeks, you deserve it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Or, and here's a simple solution: Don't do dumb shit so frequently that you end up suffering major consequences for minor infractions?

    Problem solved.

    If the system keeps handing you harsher and harsher penalties for doing the same dumb shit over and over again, it's not an issue with the system, its a pebkac issue.
    That's all well and good 'cept people frequently get infracted over the silliest of things, such as making a joke, slightly going OT, saying something not agreeable (eg politics), etc etc etc.

    It all depends on the mods, who've shown a lot of inconsistencies... I've had plenty of infractions revoked after a review.
    Last edited by Daedius; 2021-10-03 at 10:51 AM.

  14. #14
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I have made these points in topics of the banned people subforum but since those are naturally heated and almost no users of the forum actually read: I think it makes sense to make a summary of my points here.

    1. First of all I think the system is just too harsh; what I mean is the current system effectively may give months of banning to people that do minor things like "minor troll-ish behavior that is not exactly fully trolling" (even the label of the infraction itself is "minor spam") because the current system works basically as follows: "get a few infractions and even if they're minor things: you're gonna get a major banhammer on your head for weeks!" (because the system works in a way that the infractions overlap and they accumulate points).

    2. I believe the first step to improve this is to just reduce the penalties; for example: when you give weeks now for "minor spam": you not only punish someone: you basically tell them to never come back because for human minds for video gaming: that time frame is so long that is basically forever for most people; if you want practical rehabilitation to their behavior then even accumulated points should give them no more than a week or 10 days or max 2 weeks for minor transgressions because the sentence should fit the crime.

    3. At the end of the day the accumulation of points system may just be a suboptimal approach; most other communities seem to do better with a per-violation basis; in practice that would mean: if they do "minor spam": give them immediately up to like 10 days which is extremely longer than most other forums and keep the weeks and months(!) for people with extremely serious violations like personal attacks that are off topic and vulgar (and the permanent bans for threats against life and other such illegal acts).
    The system is based on points. The more flags you get, the more points, minor things take longer, worse things, faster. In the end, it is the offending account's choice on how fast they wish to be suspended, or permanently banned. It is working fine as it is. Could be a little harder, honestly.

    Edit: By harder, I mean more thorough, but as moderation is limited, we cannot be sure.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-10-03 at 12:13 PM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    So what you are saying is that you don't actually understand how
    Please read the OP texts you are participating in; I explained fully how the system works.

    This isn't an issue with understanding the accumulation and overlap of infraction points.

    And again: jaywalking should not give 10 years in prison for jaywalking 10 times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The One Percent View Post
    System should be harsher imo. I've been banned as well, so this isn't coming from some ivory tower.
    It could be harsher; I'm not actually arguing only about the severity because this is only half of it; the problem is the combination of the accumulation of points from minor transgressions with their overlap giving a result that is unfit for the crime (if the "crime" is minor stuff).

    That's why I said ElitstJerks were extremely harsher but it worked better because they didn't have this convoluted overlapping points system; they just went: "you do this: you get this: get out of the forum for like 2 months".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    This. I've been here as registered user for ten years, a few more as lurker, i've been banned just once or twice, for a couple thousand posts. If you're banned for weeks, you deserve it.
    This is a fallacy. Your demeanor may be extremely polite and never get infracted; this is perfectly common; like half of England is filled with people that would never get banned because they are raised to feel extremely bad if they seem impolite.

    The issue with those social factors is that for most of the world being impolite is not automatically bad; for example if you remain on topic and you are right about what you're saying and you respond impolitely to a total troll: I'd find it correct.

  16. #16
    Like my grandma said, "if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't say anything at all."

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Or, and here's a simple solution: Don't do dumb shit so frequently that you end up suffering major consequences for minor infractions?

    Problem solved.

    If the system keeps handing you harsher and harsher penalties for doing the same dumb shit over and over again, it's not an issue with the system, its a pebkac issue.
    So explain why Chicken Drummer posts useless threads and maybe - MAYBE - gets banned for a few days, and then gets to come back and do it again, and I post something the mods deem useless once and I'm infracted within minutes? I have seen this happen. And I mean within minutes. I have seen people get infracted and banned for things that the person they're replying to gets off scot-free for doing the same thing. I have seen mods infract people for reasons that aren't even the proper reasons. I have seen people get banned, and I go through their post history to see why, and I see nothing at all that would have led to anything. Literally - their last post before getting banned is something innocuous like "You may have a point there" or something similar.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    The system is based on points. The more flags you get, the more points, minor things take longer, worse things, faster. In the end, it is the offending account's choice on how fast they wish to be suspended, or permanently banned. It is working fine as it is. Could be a little harder, honestly.

    Edit: By harder, I mean more thorough, but as moderation is limited, we cannot be sure.
    I explained fully how the system works so this is not a problem with understanding the technical mechanics of it; points are accumulated because of individual infractions; then the infractions may overlap in time and raise the total points count and so on and so forth.

    I fully disagree that it works perfectly; it's just a punishment unfit for the crimes; if you jaywalk ten times you should not go to prison for 10 years but you should instead pay the fine 10 times or least not go to prison for as long as harsher crimes.

    This is why I said this is not only about the severity but about the consistency; e.g. when ElitistJerks gave you months for minor spam: they literally believed that it deserved months immediately; it was multiple times more fair and I'd find it fine.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You clearly remember that it's not a good idea to call an obvious burner account a troll, so it sounds like the system has the intended effect for you.

    I've had 7 bans for minor flaming in the 10 years I've had here, I still only get a day at a time or something... if you're getting banned for weeks for minor trolling or whatever it's because you do it far too often.

    There is no objective measure of "punishment that fits the crime"; this is a private forum. You have perfectly good options if you disagree with the system. Admittedly, one of those options is whining.
    No, it IS a good idea to call a troll a troll, because that's called telling the truth. Especially when you report the post/thread to the mods and they do nothing. Repeatedly. If I see an apple and I call it an apple, that's telling the truth. If I see a goldfish and I call it a goldfish, that's telling the truth. If I see a troll and I call it a troll, that's telling the truth.

    A quick perusal of this site makes it plainly obvious that there are people here with targets on their backs so big you can see them from space, and other people here that could burn down an orphanage and the staff here would whistle and look the other way. All this kind of moderation does is drive people away - and this nonsense "we don't discuss moderation here" rule doesn't help anything. Why post anything at all if we can't speak our minds about injustices?

    Now I'll sit back and await my infraction. Because I did nothing but tell the truth. You'd think I just stole food from somebody's grandmother, the way telling the truth gets rewarded here.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    So explain why Chicken Drummer posts useless threads and maybe - MAYBE - gets banned for a few days, and then gets to come back and do it again, and I post something the mods deem useless once and I'm infracted within minutes? I have seen this happen. And I mean within minutes. I have seen people get infracted and banned for things that the person they're replying to gets off scot-free for doing the same thing. I have seen mods infract people for reasons that aren't even the proper reasons. I have seen people get banned, and I go through their post history to see why, and I see nothing at all that would have led to anything. Literally - their last post before getting banned is something innocuous like "You may have a point there" or something similar.
    Maybe the reason mods don't like you is because your signature is "mods bad".
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