Which characters that were turned into villains should have been morally grey charact

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The history of Warcraft, and especially of World of Warcraft, is full of characters that were once good or at least morally ambigious characters and that were turned into full-fledged villains to serve as antagonists and bosses in the games and expansions.

Such characters include of course Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner, Illidan Stormrage and Kael'Thas Sunstrider during The Burning Crusade, archbishop Benedictus and Fandral Staghelm in Cataclysm, Garrosh Hellscream and Zaela in MoP, Elissande in Legion, etc...

Among these characters who do you think should haven't become villains, and should have stayed at least on their people's side or neutral, being morally ambigious or grey characters whose ideals and methods clash with most of their brethren or countrymen but without them becoming unambigious bad persons ?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Among these characters who do you think should haven't become villains

Obligatory Illidan and Kael'thas. They should have been a third playable faction in WoW.

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Garrosh I'd keep as is. I thought he was built up well. He definitely didn't come across as "we're going to corrupt yet another character into evil!".

[Powerogue]

Lesser appreciated of the trio, Vashj. She was very honorable for a naga and could've easily been a racial leader if they went playable naga for the Horde in the same vein as blood elves.

Sylvanas is an obvious pick. She simply went too far for us to be expected to treat her as morally grey now. When even Anduin mocks her to her face at that premise, you know it's too optimistic.

"* laughs * Do you expect me to believe, that all this time, you've been fighting for "justice"?

[Super Kami Dende]

I think the Scarlet Crusade should've never been considered Villains. Once Balnazzar was removed from their command they should've been made a morally grey type faction.

Like fuck, if the Ebon Blade were considered able to be allies, the Scarlet should've.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Yeah the Scarlets were literally no different from the Argents. Light worshippers made up of EK races that fought against the Undead. Only difference is that one faction was arbitrarily designated as mobs to be farmed and the other wasn't. Stupid.

[Super Dickmann]

All noted up to now. Sylvanas, Garrosh, the entire orcish support staff that was killed in Mists and never replaced, Gallywix, pre-neutering Genn and imperialist Magni should all have remained part of playable factions. The Scarlets should have become a shifty ally of the Alliance, at latest when Balnazzar keeled over. Also the entire Illidari goes without saying.

As with Jaina, Sylvanas and Azshara we now have the technology, and always did to some extent, to also still make them people we can beat up without removing them from the narrative entirely.

[Okacz]

Defias Brotherhood always come to mind. It's weird having initial questing experiance to be pretty much about murdering your way through a revolution of unpaid laborers. What is this, Jeff Bezos wet dream? It didn't help that the continuation of the story leaves us at "hungry beggards who literally can't survive due to bad administration are the ones joining the Brotherhood", followed up by "well, grab a shovel, it's killing time".

And of course then there's Garroshes "Evil Horde", AKA "the same fucking Horde everyone's been living and interacting with, but we flipped the switch, so their nameplates are red now".

[geco]

They should remain villains. But Garrosh.
That they have a real problem to face and that they have a solution that is "logical and core" from their point of view. Only by A or B is not the right thing to do.

For a quick example with Illidian they had to show us from the start that he was with the Legion. But his plans were very dangerous and caused more harm than good, so we had to stop him.

With Kalthas. They should show us the elves starving but thanks to their dealings with demons they no longer starve. But then came the corruption.

And since we're Vash he should have more love. Maybe to finish the trio she is the only one of the 3 who comes to her senses or something like that. XD

[Arikara]

Garrosh was a villain from his introduction in BC, and never once wavered in his dumbfuckery

[StationaryHawk]

Yeah the Scarlets were literally no different from the Argents. Light worshippers made up of EK races that fought against the Undead. Only difference is that one faction was arbitrarily designated as mobs to be farmed and the other wasn't. Stupid.

The Scarlet Crusade would kill anyone they deemed tainted by undeath, which eventually came to include all non-human races. This alone is enough to separate them from the Argent Dawn/Crusade.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Garrosh was a villain from his introduction in BC, and never once wavered in his dumbfuckery

Erm, what? Garrosh's story in Nagrand was about how he was depressed about his family's legacy. All his life he had grown up hearing about how evil his dad was. He felt very ashamed of Grom and lethargic. The entire questline is about grandma trying to get you to cheer him up, climaxing with you bringing Thrall back from Azeroth and having him show Garrosh the Grom he knew. At no point does Garrosh ever come across as a villainous character. It is only in Wrath when we start getting any hints that he might be going astray with Saurfang's warning in Warsong Hold.

[Local Skinwalker]

Sargeras imo

[chrisisvacant]

Yeah the Scarlets were literally no different from the Argents. Light worshippers made up of EK races that fought against the Undead. Only difference is that one faction was arbitrarily designated as mobs to be farmed and the other wasn't. Stupid.

Yeah not true. At all.

[Graeham]

Kael'thas, Illidan and Lady Vashj spring to mind immediately. I'd also add in Fandral Staghelm.

I also think that the Scarlet Crusade should have been an enemy of the Horde but not an enemy to the Alliance.

[Mehrunes]

All WoW villains, obviously. They should have been converted to best friends of the Alliance by Blanduin's Friendship no Jutsu in the mature masterpiece of a story the writers are totally creating.

[united]

I think the Scarlet Crusade should've never been considered Villains. Once Balnazzar was removed from their command they should've been made a morally grey type faction.

Like fuck, if the Ebon Blade were considered able to be allies, the Scarlet should've.

nah, part of what makes the scarlet crusade so nice is that they are batshit crazy villains.

[ohwell]

Obligatory Illidan and Kael'thas. They should have been a third playable faction in WoW.

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Garrosh I'd keep as is. I thought he was built up well. He definitely didn't come across as "we're going to corrupt yet another character into evil!".

I can't recall what was simply WC3 lore vs what was in books etc, but even before TBC came out, at best Illidan was a spoiled selfish brat, not morally grey. Even then, looking at things that I know are specifically WC3 lore, he definitely was borderline villain. I mean every time he went after another villain it was either because Tyrande wanted him to or to save his own butt. LK was a prime example of needing to save his own butt because he was shaking in his boots when KJ came.

I'll give you the Kael turn, but they honestly have salvaged that in SL as he pretty much now knows how stupid doing that was. I mean we would have killed him regardless because we didn't go there due to his dealings with the Legion, but rather his connection to Illidan.

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Kael'thas, Illidan and Lady Vashj spring to mind immediately. I'd also add in Fandral Staghelm.

I also think that the Scarlet Crusade should have been an enemy of the Horde but not an enemy to the Alliance.

Scarelet Crusade is an enemy of the alliance simply by virtue of "if you're not with us 100% you're against us" like certain groups rioting across the real world today are.

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They should remain villains. But Garrosh.
That they have a real problem to face and that they have a solution that is "logical and core" from their point of view. Only by A or B is not the right thing to do.

For a quick example with Illidian they had to show us from the start that he was with the Legion. But his plans were very dangerous and caused more harm than good, so we had to stop him.

With Kalthas. They should show us the elves starving but thanks to their dealings with demons they no longer starve. But then came the corruption.

And since we're Vash he should have more love. Maybe to finish the trio she is the only one of the 3 who comes to her senses or something like that. XD

I think you meant Illidan was against the Legion.

Nothing in TBC showed Illidan being "good". He was simply going back and forth between cowering from the Legion and lashing out at them when he could. If anything we were a bit of a blessing to him as we were attacking both his forces and the Legion.

Vashj would never "come to her senses" because she pretty much gave up her devotion to Azshara once she was with Illidan long enough. I mean even today in SL she still thinks highly of him.

[geco]

Vashj would never "come to her senses" because she pretty much gave up her devotion to Azshara once she was with Illidan long enough. I mean even today in SL she still thinks highly of him.

"come to her senses" It is the opposite of joining Azshara.
I mean rather that she tries to tell the other two that they are doing her wrong.

[Nathreim]

I think the Scarlet Crusade should've never been considered Villains. Once Balnazzar was removed from their command they should've been made a morally grey type faction.

Like fuck, if the Ebon Blade were considered able to be allies, the Scarlet should've.

The Ebon Blade saved the world 3 times.

The Argents wouldn't have survived without the Ebon Blade in Wrath they saved Tirion and took out 3 major scourge bases. Without them Arthas would have won.

People make a big stink about Legion but the Ebon Blade were forced to do what they did and it was for a reason. Bolvar as the Lich King could see the future and knew the Ebon Blade had to become stronger to stop the Legion's counter attack on the Broken shore. The raising of the Horsemen and the raising of the dragons all were necessary in the end as the final quest uses these forces to end to protect our tenuous holdings on the island. Additionally Bolvar was growing the Ebon Blade so they could kill him if the Helm took over because the Jailer was trying to take control.

The Ebon Blade escorted the heroes of Azeroth into the Maw and fought on after the Mawalker left. The only reason we even have a chance is because of their sacrifice. They are still aiding the forces of Azeroth to stop the Jailer.

The Scarlets have never done anything remotely redeeming even before the Dreadlords they were already racist scumbags.

[Super Kami Dende]

The Scarlets have never done anything remotely redeeming even before the Dreadlords they were already racist scumbags.

Incorrect, the reason the Scarlet were allowed to go on for so long before Balnazzar took over was because they had a lot of Heroes of the Alliance join them in the beginning and helped a lot of Lordaeron Civilians escape the Plaguelands and such. It wasn't until Balnazzar set them crazy that the Alliance finally stepped in.

When Alexandros Mograine was leading them with Ashbringer, they were adored by the Humans of Lordaeron and had many non-humans amongst their ranks.

As news of the Crusaders' rising madness compete with tales of their good deeds and names of heroes amongst their ranks, especially the less informed peasants of regions far away from former Lordaeron still view this organization as a stalwart defender against the undead threat. In part, this is true, as the Crusade has indeed rescued refugees and defended civilian settlements in the Plaguelands many times, including a project to re-settle villages that have been destroyed by the Scourge during the war. Scarlet Crusaders protected the Solliden Farmstead and its inhabitants, making it one of the few places in northern Lordaeron where the native farmfolk were able to survive to this day and also one of the few places in Lordaeron where they can get food that is unaffected by the plague of undeath.

Hell, even the Ebon Blade raised Sally Whitemane to their side due to how powerful she was as an Ally.