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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Erm, what? Garrosh's story in Nagrand was about how he was depressed about his family's legacy. All his life he had grown up hearing about how evil his dad was. He felt very ashamed of Grom and lethargic. The entire questline is about grandma trying to get you to cheer him up, climaxing with you bringing Thrall back from Azeroth and having him show Garrosh the Grom he knew. At no point does Garrosh ever come across as a villainous character. It is only in Wrath when we start getting any hints that he might be going astray with Saurfang's warning in Warsong Hold.
    Did you miss the part where he rejects political overtures and further digs him and his clan further into oblivion? His despondency and failure to act as a leader is actively dangerous for Garadar.

    The only positive point is when Thrall finally shows up—and look what a damn tragedy we got out of that misguided attempt to bolster his spirit.
    Last edited by Arikara; 2021-10-04 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Incorrect, the reason the Scarlet were allowed to go on for so long before Balnazzar took over was because they had a lot of Heroes of the Alliance join them in the beginning and helped a lot of Lordaeron Civilians escape the Plaguelands and such. It wasn't until Balnazzar set them crazy that the Alliance finally stepped in.

    When Alexandros Mograine was leading them with Ashbringer, they were adored by the Humans of Lordaeron and had many non-humans amongst their ranks.



    Hell, even the Ebon Blade raised Sally Whitemane to their side due to how powerful she was as an Ally.
    Read the Ashbringer comic. Its clear before Balnazzar the future Scarlets were racist scumbags including Sally Whitemane who you mentioned. Alexandros was never part of the Crusade as they were still the Knights of the Silver Hand up until his death. It was after the death of Alexandros that The Scarlet Crusade officially formed. When the members who would become the Agrent Dawn left in protest the remaining officially formed the Scarlet Crusade.

    Did they protect some humans sure but they also murdered many of them during baseless inquisitions and purges. Living under the Crusade was worse living in Spain during the inquisition. The protection is an illusion you don't have freedom and you live in constant fear of being taken for any number of offenses real and imagined.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The history of Warcraft, and especially of World of Warcraft, is full of characters that were once good or at least morally ambigious characters and that were turned into full-fledged villains to serve as antagonists and bosses in the games and expansions.

    Such characters include of course Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner, Illidan Stormrage and Kael'Thas Sunstrider during The Burning Crusade, archbishop Benedictus and Fandral Staghelm in Cataclysm, Garrosh Hellscream and Zaela in MoP, Elissande in Legion, etc...

    Among these characters who do you think should haven't become villains, and should have stayed at least on their people's side or neutral, being morally ambigious or grey characters whose ideals and methods clash with most of their brethren or countrymen but without them becoming unambigious bad persons ?
    This may sound strange, but: The old gods.
    They reduced what could have been grey horror creatures into generic evil tumours.

    Grey horror is creepy precisely because it lacks evil, it can easily be terribly destructive and unmistakeably good.
    I feel they could have shone a better light (pun partially intended) on that side of them, and should have refrained from explaining too much or to give them any sort of allegiance.

    Hell they might still salvage them a bit by doing a bit reveal that the void doesn't control them either, and rather they are just uncontrolled amalgam creatures unleashed in a desparate gamble of some losing powers, their motives stranger still.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I can't recall what was simply WC3 lore vs what was in books etc, but even before TBC came out, at best Illidan was a spoiled selfish brat, not morally grey. Even then, looking at things that I know are specifically WC3 lore, he definitely was borderline villain. I mean every time he went after another villain it was either because Tyrande wanted him to or to save his own butt. LK was a prime example of needing to save his own butt because he was shaking in his boots when KJ came.
    I wouldn't quite put it like that, more like...trying to prove himself? He went to Felwood to prove to his brother he was free of demons, and powerful. However he found that the skull of Gul'dan was being used to corrupt the forests and chose to destroy it and absorb it's energies to become "more powerful than any of Archemonde's lieutenants." Was he selfish? Sure. He had a major inferiority complex. He had to be the powerful one. He had to be the one to save the day. And he didn't care what he had to do to make that happen, or what others thought about him (with the exception of Tyrande, of course)

  5. #25
    Sylvannas, for sure.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

    All of this cosmological stuff is too boring for me. I'd like to get Warcraft back, please. my thing is killing defias and orcs.

  6. #26
    I think Alleria and Turalyon should be more morally grey. I kind of see Turalyon being set up as another big bad, in a moustache twirling way that Blizzard usually does, but they really shouldn't. The most interesting thing about him is the relationship between the two of them, and I think they should do questionable things in the name of "screw everything else, I'm gonna help my significant other no matter what."

    I also think more interesting things could be done with the old gods. So far, old gods have always been this 'muaahahaha I'm evil!' personality that directly talks in complete sentences, and yells angry things at us. I think we should encounter other forms of old gods or bad guys that are less so, and less of a personality than a kind of force or entity that's far less understandable.

    I think an interesting bad guy might be an intersection between the old gods 'mutation/corruption', and perhaps someone on the 'life/growth/wild' side of things. Perhaps a dryad or druid or wild god encounters some lost old god, or fragment of it, and becomes fascinated with the 'new life' that comes from it. A new 'god of change' or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    This may sound strange, but: The old gods.
    They reduced what could have been grey horror creatures into generic evil tumours.

    Grey horror is creepy precisely because it lacks evil, it can easily be terribly destructive and unmistakeably good.
    I feel they could have shone a better light (pun partially intended) on that side of them, and should have refrained from explaining too much or to give them any sort of allegiance.

    Hell they might still salvage them a bit by doing a bit reveal that the void doesn't control them either, and rather they are just uncontrolled amalgam creatures unleashed in a desparate gamble of some losing powers, their motives stranger still.
    I really doubt blizzard would do it, but I don't think the 'void' should really have much of understandable motivations at all. They should be more of a fundamental force than any kind of personality.

  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Read the Ashbringer comic. Its clear before Balnazzar the future Scarlets were racist scumbags including Sally Whitemane who you mentioned. Alexandros was never part of the Crusade as they were still the Knights of the Silver Hand up until his death. It was after the death of Alexandros that The Scarlet Crusade officially formed. When the members who would become the Agrent Dawn left in protest the remaining officially formed the Scarlet Crusade.

    Did they protect some humans sure but they also murdered many of them during baseless inquisitions and purges. Living under the Crusade was worse living in Spain during the inquisition. The protection is an illusion you don't have freedom and you live in constant fear of being taken for any number of offenses real and imagined.
    I mentioned SAlly because the Ebon Blade who you claim saved the World 3 times saw her fit to be one of their Horsemen.

  8. #28
    There are a fair few Horde characters, who come to mind. Sylvanas's character assassination being only the most recent example of mismanagement.


    Kael'thas was the most agregious of the lot since his motives and actions contradicted themselves by the time of his second death, which largely wasted his potential and name value.

    Illidan was fine. His whole thing was that while he opposes the legion he doesn't have the integrity and strength of character to be any better than them, by the point of TBC. (Something the Legion retcons romanticised as infinite wisdom)


    Garrosh's journey into villainy was wierd, but ultimately made sense in context of his antics antagonising all his allies through int being his dump stat, until WoD anyway, where a lot of things just kinda didn't make sense, unless you assume the characters are completely stupid.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    I think Alleria and Turalyon should be more morally grey. I kind of see Turalyon being set up as another big bad, in a moustache twirling way that Blizzard usually does, but they really shouldn't. The most interesting thing about him is the relationship between the two of them, and I think they should do questionable things in the name of "screw everything else, I'm gonna help my significant other no matter what."

    I also think more interesting things could be done with the old gods. So far, old gods have always been this 'muaahahaha I'm evil!' personality that directly talks in complete sentences, and yells angry things at us. I think we should encounter other forms of old gods or bad guys that are less so, and less of a personality than a kind of force or entity that's far less understandable.

    I think an interesting bad guy might be an intersection between the old gods 'mutation/corruption', and perhaps someone on the 'life/growth/wild' side of things. Perhaps a dryad or druid or wild god encounters some lost old god, or fragment of it, and becomes fascinated with the 'new life' that comes from it. A new 'god of change' or something like that.

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    I really doubt blizzard would do it, but I don't think the 'void' should really have much of understandable motivations at all. They should be more of a fundamental force than any kind of personality.
    Precisely.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  10. #30
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Both of the Horde's "evil" warchiefs worked better as antagonists for the Alliance than villains for the world. And doing that storyline twice is perhaps the stupidest decision the writers have ever made for this game's lore.

    Thinking smaller, Lord Godfrey could've been a great Forsaken character had he been allowed to stick around.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    nah, part of what makes the scarlet crusade so nice is that they are batshit crazy villains.
    And the best part is that even those batshit crazy folks were able to wield the Light, which resonated deeply with the last chapters of Arthas' story in the human campaign of WC3. Not to mention how it gave the Light a background that went beyond the trite "good guys' mcguffin" trope.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  12. #32
    Some obvious choices, but this one prods my imagination;
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    This may sound strange, but: The old gods. They reduced what could have been grey horror creatures into generic evil tumours.

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I think the Scarlet Crusade should've never been considered Villains. Once Balnazzar was removed from their command they should've been made a morally grey type faction.

    Like fuck, if the Ebon Blade were considered able to be allies, the Scarlet should've.
    well you get Mariella Ward and her fellow Scarlet deserters in Legion, that's something
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Both of the Horde's "evil" warchiefs worked better as antagonists for the Alliance than villains for the world. And doing that storyline twice is perhaps the stupidest decision the writers have ever made for this game's lore.

    Thinking smaller, Lord Godfrey could've been a great Forsaken character had he been allowed to stick around.
    His worst crime, shooting Sylvanas in the back of the head, would probably get him a pat on the back about now. Wonder if his body's still fresh enough, or- oh damn, Sylvanas took all the val'kyr with her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    well you get Mariella Ward and her fellow Scarlet deserters in Legion, that's something
    Still begging for the scarlet deserters, Lilian Voss, and Calia Menethil to meet at some point.

    Though on the note of Voss we do see her dad in the Maw. Possibly the only face we've seen so far that deserved to be there.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    oh damn, Sylvanas took all the val'kyr with her.
    Huh. Does that then mean lore-wise, there's no new Forsaken being made?

  16. #36
    All of the Horde cast we lost. This crap has been started all the way in TBC. Horde personalities should not have been villain batted and killed.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    All noted up to now. Sylvanas, Garrosh, the entire orcish support staff that was killed in Mists and never replaced, Gallywix, pre-neutering Genn and imperialist Magni should all have remained part of playable factions. The Scarlets should have become a shifty ally of the Alliance, at latest when Balnazzar keeled over. Also the entire Illidari goes without saying.

    As with Jaina, Sylvanas and Azshara we now have the technology, and always did to some extent, to also still make them people we can beat up without removing them from the narrative entirely.
    How would Gallywix be morally grey tho? He literally doesn't care about anything else than money and power. What good deed would he possibly do out of his own will?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Defias Brotherhood always come to mind. It's weird having initial questing experiance to be pretty much about murdering your way through a revolution of unpaid laborers. What is this, Jeff Bezos wet dream? It didn't help that the continuation of the story leaves us at "hungry beggards who literally can't survive due to bad administration are the ones joining the Brotherhood", followed up by "well, grab a shovel, it's killing time".

    And of course then there's Garroshes "Evil Horde", AKA "the same fucking Horde everyone's been living and interacting with, but we flipped the switch, so their nameplates are red now".
    I've always felt bad for the brotherhood but now that you say that, it's literally a proletariat revolution and i support it (yes yes i know that the alliance is feudal but still)
    Last edited by Bali; 2021-11-20 at 12:27 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bali View Post
    How would Gallywix be morally grey tho? He literally doesn't care about anything else than money and power. What good deed would he possibly do out of his own will?
    Oh, no, Gallywix's far from a nice person and the kindest thing he does is in a tie-in story. He's of course supremely entertaining though. Sylvanas isn't a nice lady either. Garrosh did nothing wrong of course. What I'm getting at, which I wrote, is that they should be the leaders of playable races and their removal made the races they were in charge of exponentially more boring.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #39
    The arakkoa in WoD were really interesting up until they opted to join the Legion. Similarly, the Klaxxi Paragons were a really interesting group to work with up until they threw their lot in with Garrosh for reasons. Lastly, the Zandalari in Cataclysm and MoP were villain batted hard after being perfectly reasonable allies in Classic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    His worst crime, shooting Sylvanas in the back of the head, would probably get him a pat on the back about now. Wonder if his body's still fresh enough, or- oh damn, Sylvanas took all the val'kyr with her.
    Sylvanas was leader of a hostile power who invaded his homeland; I don't think shooting her was in any way a crime, particularly given everyone who is raised is supposed to be given a choice (at least up until BfA). His greatest crime was treason, over which he killed himself. But I do agree it would've been interesting to have him stick around a bit longer.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, no, Gallywix's far from a nice person and the kindest thing he does is in a tie-in story. He's of course supremely entertaining though. Sylvanas isn't a nice lady either. Garrosh did nothing wrong of course. What I'm getting at, which I wrote, is that they should be the leaders of playable races and their removal made the races they were in charge of exponentially more boring.
    Ohh I see
    Yeah that makes sense

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