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  1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    To an extent, yes. But how on earth do devs respond to feedback when almost 100% of it is "your game sucks get better."
    Well that is the conundrum. There is plenty of great feedback mixed in with the bullshit. So they just don't bother and stick to the same old same old. They need to do something. That is why they get paid the big bucks. They need to figure it out. I am just a consumer.

  2. #1322
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    No, not even close lmao. Blizzard release and control the narrative around this game. They made their bed with this shit community because they fostered this shit community in the first place, then made it even worse by trying to constantly fight with the community they made. The game was structured around faction pride and being toxic to half your server from the start, even blizzard played into it. Most of their shrinking player base is still gona be those people. If they wanted a community that hugs togheter and sing along with everyone, they had to do what the ff14 team did, build their game with that focus from the start. Have harsh punishment, actually monitor shit. Blizzard did none of this for more then a decade, theres no easy way to turn this kind of community around. No amount of emote changes or picture removal is gona change this, the game is too old to recapture new players and a turn around just put off your ancient base.

    How do i know this? Because i played even older games then wow. Like quake and ut. Guess what they are just as toxic 20 years later. You cant teach an old community of monkeys new tricks. You have to come to term with that. Might as well make wow 2 if you do want a clean slate and a new community, that has much better chance to turn good, if you foster it into a good environment from the start.
    "My cynicism informs me that nothing can ever change so we shouldn't bother. Oh, and if you do bother, it's because you're woke."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Well that is the conundrum. There is plenty of great feedback mixed in with the bullshit. So they just don't bother and stick to the same old same old. They need to do something. That is why they get paid the big bucks. They need to figure it out. I am just a consumer.
    I agree wholeheartedly. I want to provide feedback, too, but I'm afraid that it'll be lost in a sea of people just looking for an upvote for saying "Ion Hazzikostas is literally Satan," the 3,837,943th time this Tuesday.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Yeah the devs. Now you get it.
    Wait. It's been the WoW development team railing in this thread about "woke"/"leftists/"censorship"/"puritans"/Twitter/Tumblr/Neopets/pronouns/hair dye/scapegoat-of-the moment (to say nothing of flaming people for disagreeing) on fake accounts, all this time?

    If so: it would not be that they're "outraged," be that "for the sake of being outraged" or otherwise, at all. It would be that they're faking a nonexistent outrage brigade, presumably for publicity. Which would be doubly performative and generally kind of low.
    Last edited by Dacia Ultan; 2021-10-14 at 09:46 PM.

  4. #1324
    Quote Originally Posted by Menog View Post
    Depends on the person. When revolution hit my countrys biggest bridge wich was named after the dictator had its name changed and even today some people that dont support the dictatorship think the name should had been kept the same.

    I don't think stuff that was fine in its time of constrution should be demolished because I believe we should remember the past. Not to cherish it but to learn from it.

    Another example would be auschwitz. It remains there so people can be reminded of the terrible cost of fascism.

    Instead of destroying said monuments why not move them to a museum like for example what they do in the jim crow museum?

    We should never erase our colective and cultural history so we don't forget the lessons of the past.

    Does this make sense to you?
    I appreciate you taking the time to explore this. I'd written off your takes but this is actually a pretty well-reasoned. I just hope that it helps you see that in anything there are always going to be people who view the same act in different lenses. You say censorship. I see the developers making the game they feel comfortable making. All the rants about woke police and all that stuff is fluff. It won't change anything. I don't see Blizzard suddenly pulling a 180 on anything at this point. If these changes really were the straw that broke the camel's back for you... then well, I'm sorry something so innocuous impacted this way but that is what it is.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-10-15 at 11:04 PM.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    To an extent, yes. But how on earth do devs respond to feedback when almost 100% of it is "your game sucks get better."
    Thats literally the job of a design team to translate your game sucks into what it actually means. You are paid to do this, not your player base. Also its not even 100% of your community. We have plently exemple of players reaching out to blizzard to give proper feed back or even help, but for the last decade blizzard has always tried to fight its community as if its all idiots. Blizzard was offered raid teams that dont compete in world first, to clean up fights bugs and over tune, they always refused, instead they test shit on god mod, put it on ptr, its shit, make it live and its still shit, gotta hot fix that thing 12 times.

    How many people explained why titan forge was shit, blizzard only answer was that they kewn better, because it was them vs the idiots. Until they turned around and fucking removed it. If as you say 100% of feed back says something is shit, guess what you have to fucking do your job and figure out why 100% of the feedback says its shit, theres no smoke without fire, if the fucking smoke is as prevalent as you say.

    There is also the fact your community only goes by precedence, blizzard literally only answered to shit shows, not good feed back. It teaches the community how it works. Community wwnt ape shit against forced real id, real id dropped. Keep telling them titan forged was shit for two years until it got removes. If the only result the community gets is when they fling shit at you for a year, its what they will always do.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2021-10-14 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #1326
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Thats literally the job of a design team to translate your game sucks into what it actually means. You are paid to do this, not your player base. Also its not even 100% of your community. We have plently exemple of players reaching out to blizzard to give proper feed back or even help, but for the last decade blizzard has always tried to fight its community as if its all idiots. Blizzard was offered raid teams that dont compete in world first, to clean up fights bugs and over tune, they always refused, instead they test shit on god mod, put it on ptr, its shit, make it live and its still shit, gotta hot fix that thing 12 times.

    How many people explained why titan forge was shit, blizzard only answer was that they kewn better, because it was them vs the idiots. Until they turned around and fucking removed it. If as you say 100% of feed back says something is shit, guess what you have to fucking do your job and figure out why 100% of the feedback says its shit, theres no smoke without fire, if the fucking smoke is as prevalent as you say.
    "Get better" means something different to a lot of WoW players. You ask a million WoW players how they would improve the game and you get a million answers. Is Blizzard simply supposed to develop a million versions of WoW to appease every single player that's ever played it?
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  7. #1327
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Well that is the conundrum. There is plenty of great feedback mixed in with the bullshit. So they just don't bother and stick to the same old same old. They need to do something. That is why they get paid the big bucks. They need to figure it out. I am just a consumer.
    There wasn't a single beta where players didn't make correct predictions on whats broken and needs a change that only got fixed months after release later. Now you could propose its simply time constraints and they lack the ability to finish everything in time but this time they even changed what was working well into worse short before release. There is no excuse to change working parts while having broken pieces untouched.

  8. #1328
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    "Get better" means something different to a lot of WoW players. You ask a million WoW players how they would improve the game and you get a million answers. Is Blizzard simply supposed to develop a million versions of WoW to appease every single player that's ever played it?
    Except thats not true and you know it. Theres always very obvious point of contentions in actual feedback. Titan forged was an example, they received very direct feed back, but thought they simply had the galaxy brain and people playing their games are simpletons. If they knew how to do this better, guess what they could have tested titanforge, seen it sucks and removed it like they did, but they dont make it sound like that. I can give you two example of something similar and how two different team interact to make people wait, one from a dev at blizzard that ultimatly makes nobody happy, because they manage to just sound like a prick and SE that tries to sound reasonable and is able to accomplish the same thing (stalling for time) without trying to fight with its community.

    When the feedback about titan forged started in legion beta. Blizzard first and only answer for about a year was: You guys dont get it, it will even out eventually, it makes you guys play longer.

    Bad answer, all it did was make it sound as they simply look down on the feed back. Also the answer doesent solved what the feedback was, the feedback was that it doesent really do anything. Adding random stats to the bis, doesent make them more exiting, you are already exited for bis. All it did was add the possibility that you would be disappointed because the one time you found that bis, it could now also be shit, instead of bis. They simply did not understand the emotion of finding the gear you want enough to realizes making you play longer, is not an answer. If you as a player gets to play 3 hours and its miserable or 20 minute of pure fun, you will pick 20 minutes of pure fun. Time played is irrelevant.

    Now FF14 had a small shit show in 2 years ago in the shadowbringer release stuff. Viera was locked to FEMALE ONLY. Guess what happened? Instead of talking down to their community in blizzard style and going: you guys got two entire new race models, suck it you ungrateful shits. They answered the call, explained they didnt have time to work on a male of the Viera and female for the horthgars, simply decided to make one female and one male to add more variety and they would take the feedback. It died down, little bit later they said officially that after the feedback they would work on bringing both these races other gender in the game, if we wait for them. Took 2 years and we got the Viera males. No shit show, no you suck, everyones happy. They explained why they didnt do it, then that it would take time, ez fix.

    Now go back to exemple one: If instead of saying hey players, your feedback sucks. Titanforge you just dont get it. They had some kind of minimum of introspection and said: okay look we want to test this out. We understand the loot concern, if it doesent work we will remove it. EZ, probably remove 80% of the fire coming your way.

    Like i said blizzard gets what they fostered. They fostered a community they cant stop spitting on and looking down at. Their public feedback always sounds like they think everyone playing their games a simpleton and they know better, well they get people mad at them all the time. It doesent take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Mabye if they didnt fire most of their community managers couple years ago, it would not turn this way lol. If they had active GMs on their servers, IF THEY ACTUALLY USED MONEY TO MANAGE THE COMMUNITY. The community wouldnt be the way it is?

    So again no, the game and the state of the community entirely is 100% blizzards doing. They made it this way, its on them to fix it. But fixing it requires effort, its not gona be by adding pictures of fruits and changing emotes. Players are gona harass each other with the sit emote if they have to. Police the fucking game and ban the people doing bad shit. Hire actual community managers, that play the game, wants to come and give direct video feedback to everyone, explain what is going on with the game weekly, what your team is working on, what feedback you heard, not what you think players dont understand or how bad you think they are. Thats how you turn your community around.

    If im at a car dealership and i try a car, come back and tell the clerk im not feeling this car. I wanna try something else. Hes not coming out with a fucking chart telling me according to the chart i should like this car and hes not telling me i dont get it, i should like this car, im just not smart enough to understand why i should want it. He will try to figure out why i dont like this car and sell me SOMETHING ELSE.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2021-10-14 at 10:47 PM.

  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    For the trillionth fucking goddamn time, i do not want anybody to be harassed at work, ever for any reason and exposing them is the right thing to do. But that does not give you an excuse to censor things completely unrelated to that. Get it through your fucking thick head
    and for the trillionth fucking goddamn time. I agree with you, I AGREE that censoring the game is not the way you go about enacting any lasting, positive change at Blizzard.

    but there are key differences between you and I:

    one of us actually gives a shit about the working conditions people are subjected to while making the games that they have been playing for quite literally 2/3rds of their natural life and have a vested interest in seeing Blizzard succeed in making quality content. while not exploiting and ruining the lives of the people who make those games in the process.

    the other one, could not not give less of a flying fuck. as demonstrated by their "solution" to dealing with the toxic work environment at Blizzard is to just leave the company when you don't immediately get your way. thus, not only NOT solving the problem of toxicity within Blizzard, but now allowing it to continue with tacit endorsement from management, which has been the case now for decades at this point. and when presented with an alternative to the evil SJW censoring, by the workers coming together to create a better work environment, it gets swatted down because it won't 125% guarantee sexual harassment will never. ever. happen again. all while providing... NOTHING as a solution themselves.

    so no, you really DO NOT actually care about the people working at Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Mods on their main accounts just salivating to give an infraction.

    I've enjoyed this interaction, don't fall for it!
    congrats, breaking forum rules and contributing less than nothing to the conversation.

    *finger guns*
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2021-10-15 at 12:18 AM.

  10. #1330
    I know a lot of you feel helpless, but there's hope. You're being set free. You can finally walk away.
    Guys...it's okay to stop being a gamer and do something more productive and satisfying with those hours.

    This major shift in the gaming culture is your signal and should open your eyes to the fact that you never had control over your experience and they never listened to you. They told you what to want, but that's over now. You still have time to live a satisfying life on your terms.

    Let them have gaming. Take up a hobby and let the radicals take your place as subscribers; take your place in decades of misery and regret. Let them get buttered up and fleeced for years in their happy little cocoons the way you did because they got their way. You know better now. You're in control now, and it's all on your terms.

  11. #1331
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    *finger guns*
    Not all of us are smort enough to make "u mad cause booba gone" type arguments. Sorry!

  12. #1332
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcho View Post
    I know a lot of you feel helpless, but there's hope. You're being set free. You can finally walk away.
    Guys...it's okay to stop being a gamer and do something more productive and satisfying with those hours.

    This major shift in the gaming culture is your signal and should open your eyes to the fact that you never had control over your experience and they never listened to you. They told you what to want, but that's over now. You still have time to live a satisfying life on your terms.

    Let them have gaming. Take up a hobby and let the radicals take your place as subscribers; take your place in decades of misery and regret. Let them get buttered up and fleeced for years in their happy little cocoons the way you did because they got their way. You know better now. You're in control now, and it's all on your terms.
    I wasn't ready to quit over the most meaningless changes in the world but now that some random dude on this forum has told me it's okay I guess I don't have any choice. Unsubscribing now!
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  13. #1333
    Quote Originally Posted by Menog View Post
    We should never erase our colective and cultural history so we don't forget the lessons of the past.
    Probably the most important part of humanity that. To learn from the mistakes humans did before, and try our best to prevent it from happening again.

    How are we going to learn from mistakes if we are just going to delete them and try our best to imagine that it didn't happen? This is both important for individuals and people as a whole.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  14. #1334
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I wasn't ready to quit over the most meaningless changes in the world but now that some random dude on this forum has told me it's okay I guess I don't have any choice. Unsubscribing now!
    Glad it helped, stranger.

  15. #1335
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    See heres the problem too, its their quick fixes so they dont actually have to make the efforts. People harass each other with emotes. Instead of having a system and working to actually remove people harassing, its easier to REMOVE features that can be used to harass people. Blizzard always go that route, its low effort, cost no money. Kinda the reason they had no chat in heroes of the storm. You have to actually put effort to monitor your community to make a good community. But that takes effort, instead the better less expensive idea is to remove community options. Blizzard is the community version of putting foam on every corner possible, so that they dont need to teach their community to not be shit the hard way. If you remove everything that people can use to be shit, eventually they cant be shit!
    Maybe the game will die and then we really don't have to worry about it anymore!

    Incredible! 6D chess brother
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  16. #1336
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Probably the most important part of humanity that. To learn from the mistakes humans did before, and try our best to prevent it from happening again.

    How are we going to learn from mistakes if we are just going to delete them and try our best to imagine that it didn't happen? This is both important for individuals and people as a whole.
    False premise. No one is "try[ing] to imagine" that dialogue which is a matter of public record "didn't happen."

  17. #1337
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    how is this thread still not locked?

    They locked the news post about renaming Finkle
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  18. #1338
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    how is this thread still not locked?

    They locked the news post about renaming Finkle
    This one might be next on the chopping block and they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

    But I'm likewise surprised that this thread has gone on for as long as it has, between some of the transphobic remarks from obvious burner accounts to the back-and-forth strawmanning that hasn't managed to convince anyone of anything.

  19. #1339
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    In a game that centers around killing and murder, I sure am glad they removed some emotes and jokes. And the fact that many here are defending it, clearly I need to remind you that literal murder trumps jokes on the bad scale by more than a few measurements
    I'm done talking with talking/arguing with the far left authoritarian fascists of this site. You've lost all sense of reason and abandon logic for the brainwash feed of the mass media without taking a second thought to really think for a few seconds about what you're being spoon fed. The mods of this site are also just as bad and charge an infraction on anyone they disagree with for whatever reason, even if they have to make one up. We're done here with any sort of discussion.

  20. #1340
    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    In a game that centers around killing and murder, I sure am glad they removed some emotes and jokes. And the fact that many here are defending it, clearly I need to remind you that literal murder trumps jokes on the bad scale by more than a few measurements
    Well that's kind of the issue with everything that Blizz is doing surrounding this topic, and it lines up with a bunch of the commentary in this thread: it lacks perspective.

    The other problem is that people are increasingly holding onto indefensible positions by refusing to acknowledge or gain perspective. We're in a day and age where having perspective is wrong when it doesn't line up with the 'officially approved' perspective, and frankly that's pretty dangerous as historically this leads towards large body counts. While Blizz's actions may seem small scale in relation to the larger problems of the world, they're indicative of not only the side they're choosing but also being complicit in and condoning the general activities that have no good end or resolution to them. I've said in other threads that Blizz is likely still a terrible place after their recent leadership change-up, as they've just replace one horrible regime with another horrible regime.

    On the plus side, it's very clear that all these changes are about Blizz themselves, not the players. How is that a plus? They're at least being overt about their stances and actions for the most part, so players can make their choices without having to sort through deception and lies; there's some massaging of words, but it's probably because they know the backlash would be insane if they spoke their minds, but even their crafted narrative is so transparent that it's not hard to see their probable intent.

    With respect to this thread in general, I'd rather it not be locked down. Even if I vehemently disagree with others on certain issues, I'd rather have people fighting it out in words than escalating to things that are very harmful. That's one of the main reasons behind the US Constitution's freedom of speech amendment: allow people to fight with their words, as historically people will resort to fighting and killing each other if such a freedom is oppressed.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

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