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  1. #1361
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    But I think the green skin stuff is was done to avoid any copyright problems.
    Y'know...I hadn't even taken the notorious litigiousness of Games Workshop into account. But it makes sense.

  2. #1362
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Sadly, it's a common thing on forums nowadays that one thing have to mean something else than whats actually written.

    For some reason it can't just mean that learning from the past is important. It's all it says.

    And for what it's worth, I agree with the post you wrote. It's crucial imo to have our history, good and bad, in our minds. Always.
    Its the tactic that individual uses. Going around sugar picking an out of context sentence then goes and writes a 50000 essay filled with accusations and intentionaly missing the point ending the post in a giant gotcha epiphany.

    In the meanwhile he managed to add nothing to the discussion because the only purpouse was to dishonestly destroy your argument and not add any value to the conversation. Such a borring person.

    As for you agreeing with me... Apparently even that muppet agreed according to your quote
    .. because as you said, its common sense.

  3. #1363
    Quote Originally Posted by Menog View Post
    As for you agreeing with me... Apparently even that muppet agreed according to your quote
    .. because as you said, its common sense.
    Yeah, thats when you know its time to move on from the "conversation" for sure
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    Considering her whole love affair with the color green and hence turning things into jade...it is indeed baffling. But I think the green skin stuff is was done to avoid any copyright problems. Just being extra careful, mayhap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    Y'know...I hadn't even taken the notorious litigiousness of Games Workshop into account. But it makes sense.
    There are couple of big obvious problems with that - while we know just how very anal GW is about their trademarks:

    1. Green-skins/greenskins/green skins are not copyrighted and realistically cannot be copyrighted (at least I can't find anything contrary about this). GW failed with the Imperial Guard/Eldar for self-explanatory reasons leading to the whole Astra Militarum/Aeldari bullshit.
    2. Why just now exactly together with the rest of changes/removals and not a decade before? The timing cannot be less coincidental.
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  5. #1365
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    Not sure how "hurt feelings" was your takeaway, but go off or whatever.
    A game about war and death, where men tell women to shut the fuck up, and how until recently it was mainly male predominant leads and villains. Yes, I am fully in the camp of the dev's trying (And failing) to pandering, not fixing any issues there may have been. Until they actually care, I'll definitely be in that camp. To me it's sad anyone can look at these changes and go 'It's a step in the right direction' when they ignore the entire actual problem and instead put band-aids on it.

    Or in some cases here, gut them completely. But - many others still exist.

    And to anyone thinking otherwise, and point out Sylvanas: Look at Tyrande and how they treated her, and continue to do so? Doesn't really scream to me that they care when they still do the same things despite having new leads and devs in the team over the years. It's just cut from the same cloth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    There are couple of big obvious problems with that - while we know just how very anal GW is about their trademarks:

    1. Green-skins/greenskins/green skins are not copyrighted and realistically cannot be copyrighted (at least I can't find anything contrary about this). GW failed with the Imperial Guard/Eldar for self-explanatory reasons leading to the whole Astra Militarum/Aeldari bullshit.
    2. Why just now exactly together with the rest of changes/removals and not a decade before? The timing cannot be less coincidental.
    It's not coincidental and I think most know that. Hell, Blizzard got sued and WON when GW went after them in the deep past of the companies history.
    Last edited by PenguinChan; 2021-10-16 at 01:12 PM.

  6. #1366
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    A game about war and death, where men tell women to shut the fuck up, and how until recently it was mainly male predominant leads and villains. Yes, I am fully in the camp of the dev's trying (And failing) to pandering, not fixing any issues there may have been. Until they actually care, I'll definitely be in that camp. To me it's sad anyone can look at these changes and go 'It's a step in the right direction' when they ignore the entire actual problem and instead put band-aids on it.

    Or in some cases here, gut them completely. But - many others still exist.

    And to anyone thinking otherwise, and point out Sylvanas: Look at Tyrande and how they treated her, and continue to do so? Doesn't really scream to me that they care when they still do the same things despite having new leads and devs in the team over the years. It's just cut from the same cloth.
    So because of this rather than doing anything, they should instead... do nothing.

    Brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    It's not coincidental and I think most know that. Hell, Blizzard got sued and WON when GW went after them in the deep past of the companies history.
    Again, Blizzard just hates its players because apparently the term "greenskin" is the glue which holds the entire game together.
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  7. #1367
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, thats when you know its time to move on from the "conversation" for sure
    That person is being dishonest, and trying to spin both their grudge against me and the exchange into which you stepped to make themself look good. Again: if you haven't read the posts leading up to where you stepped in, they are there for your perusal.

    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    A game about war and death, where men tell women to shut the fuck up, and how until recently it was mainly male predominant leads and villains. Yes, I am fully in the camp of the dev's trying (And failing) to pandering, not fixing any issues there may have been. Until they actually care, I'll definitely be in that camp. To me it's sad anyone can look at these changes and go 'It's a step in the right direction' when they ignore the entire actual problem and instead put band-aids on it.
    Look, I don't like most of these changes either. But the devopment team aren't in charge of personnel management, so that doesn't track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So because of this rather than doing anything, they should instead... do nothing.

    Brilliant.
    I don't really call the altered lines a concrete change (at least for the most part), or a substitute for cleaning up their act. But, again: in a company of that size, development and personnel are going to be separate departments. And the same is true for legal.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most of the outrage over the line changes is self-evidently manufactured.
    Last edited by Dacia Ultan; 2021-10-16 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #1368
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    Look, I don't like most of these changes either. But the devopment team aren't in charge of personnel management, so that doesn't track.

    I don't really call the altered lines a concrete change (at least for the most part), or a substitute for cleaning up their act. But, again: in a company of that size, development and personnel are going to be separate departments. And the same is true for legal.
    I was specifically talking about the game itself and everything within. The happenings outside (Lawsuit / Employees) have clearly influenced some of these decisions outside in (RL towards the game), not inside out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So because of this rather than doing anything, they should instead... do nothing.

    Brilliant.
    They should instead do meaningful changes, not small fiddly ones with irrelevancy. Stop being a smart-ass.

  9. #1369
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    I was specifically talking about the game itself and everything within. The happenings outside (Lawsuit / Employees) have clearly influenced some of these decisions outside in (RL towards the game), not inside out.
    Okay, but you put it down to "hurt feelings," which is at best a misinterpretation and at worst a condescending dismissal of the impact of the "happenings outside."

    They should instead do meaningful changes, not small fiddly ones with irrelevancy. Stop being a smart-ass.
    I'm sure they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

  10. #1370
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    Okay, but you put it down to "hurt feelings," which is at best a misinterpretation and at worst a condescending dismissal of the impact of the "happenings outside."

    I'm sure they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
    Bluntly put it's both. I don't like it when developers try and speak out for certain groups or fix it for them - and still fail to even reach that goal with minor / pandering changes. Likewise, I don't enjoy it when targeted audiences (Or whoever it does) start to get extremely toxic online (Read: Mostly social media) And offline about it.

    Yes I realize what I said is also deemed toxic. It's not lost on me.

    At worst it makes me roll my eyes and sigh, at best I don't mind the changes. But clearly many act WAY more hostile than anything I've seen here, let alone the kind of reactions it has gotten thus far.

    And we'll see if they keep it up in better ways, and don't trip over themselves again As in: Do minor changes, then stop for a 1 /2 years, repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm glad you've appointed yourself as the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't constitute a "meaningful change."
    I'd like to point out earlier in this thread you yourself wanted more discussion than mindless banter and dickery. If you do, maybe we should talk about changes that would actually benefit more people instead of doing what you are now.
    Last edited by PenguinChan; 2021-10-16 at 03:50 PM.

  11. #1371
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    They should instead do meaningful changes, not small fiddly ones with irrelevancy. Stop being a smart-ass.
    I'm glad you've appointed yourself as the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't constitute a "meaningful change."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    I'd like to point out earlier in this thread you yourself wanted more discussion than mindless banter and dickery. If you do, maybe we should talk about changes that would actually benefit more people instead of doing what you are now.
    Why does everything have to be on a spectrum of "benefiting" somebody? Why is it that we have to frame everything Blizzard does as "taking away" from something? Was anybody really ever all that emotionally connected to any of the things Blizzard is removing? I see a lot people in this thread pretending they were but I'd bet you money almost 100% of them wouldn't have even fucking noticed it got changed if it hadn't been datamined ahead of time. The only common thread in this type of criticism is that Blizzard did something wrong by deciding to make changes in the first place. This is just more of the same blind impotent rage that we see from the WoW community whenever Blizzard does (or doesn't do) literally fucking anything, just with the added spice that if you try to argue a neutral opinion of any of the "pointless censorship" you're apparently a Marxist leftie.
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  12. #1372
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Will they find some other voice actor for Thrall since he is voiced by Metzen? With Blizzard taking out devs game attachments to the game itself no doubt the same goes for devs voicing the characters too?

    Metzen is one of the founders and an old guard. Blizzard's new direction to stamp out its own creators seems to make this the next logical step.
    Last edited by Orby; 2021-10-16 at 04:15 PM.
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  13. #1373
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    To an extent, yes. But how on earth do devs respond to feedback when almost 100% of it is "your game sucks get better."
    You just don't.

    You tell a CM to get some proper feedback on a system, possibly tell him what specific parts you want feedback on and explain to him the intent behind the system, so he can properly communicate with the players.

    It's not the devs job to seperate between good and bad feedback, let alone respond to bad feedback, this is the job of the CM's.

    Problem is, Blizzard has laid off a handful of CM's because they are "non Development roles" and those left obviously have a difficult time when the devs themselves are in a very adversial relationship with the community.

  14. #1374
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Problem is, Blizzard has laid off a handful of CM's because they are "non Development roles" and those left obviously have a difficult time when the devs themselves are in a very adversial relationship with the community.
    I'd argue the community is adversarial towards developers, not the other way around.
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  15. #1375
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'd argue the community is adversarial towards developers, not the other way around.
    Considering the whole covenant situation, i disagree vehemently.

    But arguing about is frankly semantics, point is, if you want proper feedback, you need to hire people that gather that proper feedback and not simply expect that the community will self regulate and present you that on a platter, this hasn't worked in 2004 and sure as shit not on 2021.
    Then the discussion regarding changes within the game might even take place on the official forums and not on the twitter page of the employee who chose to speak out on these matters.

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Bluntly put it's both. I don't like it when developers try and speak out for certain groups or fix it for them - and still fail to even reach that goal with minor / pandering changes. Likewise, I don't enjoy it when targeted audiences (Or whoever it does) start to get extremely toxic online (Read: Mostly social media) And offline about it.
    Okay, but let's not do that thing where "the default" is deemed neutral, innocuous, and apolitical. Hell, in this thread alone: the way people seriously upset by the changes have been acting should be rebuke enough to that.

    Yes I realize what I said is also deemed toxic. It's not lost on me.
    That's because it's typically used as a one-sided silencing tactic, as described above.

    At worst it makes me roll my eyes and sigh, at best I don't mind the changes. But clearly many act WAY more hostile than anything I've seen here, let alone the kind of reactions it has gotten thus far.
    I found things like "Master Baiter" and "I'm a bull in leather?" and "I like to fart in the tub" amusing. Ditto the vibrator jokes that used to surround the Heartbreaker rocket mount. There's no way that one NPC in Undercity is ever not going to be creepy as an entire concept.

    But as for "no homo" jokes? References which depend, one way or another (no matter how funny the film as a whole may have been) on nasty implications (which they no longer want to endorse) in order to be funny? (Yes, I know; people like to spin those as being about "political agendas" and "hurt feelings," on the grounds that "it's just a game." The thing is: games don't exist in a vacuum. The presence of that reference in the first place was at best no less "political" than their removal; and the source of its "humor" was an attitude which, on a greater scale, threatens a hell of a lot more than "feelings.") Also: the addition of incubi was probably a good idea; hopefully, they preen and tease just as much as the succubi do.

    And there's also the possibility that some lines may have been removed for being deemed vapid and/or dated.

    And we'll see if they keep it up in better ways, and don't trip over themselves again As in: Do minor changes, then stop for a 1 /2 years, repeat.
    Trust me: I'll believe that they're genuinely addressing the ethics scandal when I see it.

    But the discussion among the fanbase, for the most part, hasn't been about how changing lines is not a substitute for addressing an ethics scandal. It's been, at best, the presumption that it's intended as a substitute for the ethics scandal.

    And then, there are a hell of a lot of the attitudes I described in a now-locked thread:
    I mean...according to [a certain mindset], it seems like pushing back against being the punchline (if not the punching bag) is "weakness," and not being the punchline or the punching bag in the first place is "strength." But yet: whenever the same people who hold that mindset get pushback, they wail that they've become the punching bag.
    You know...paying lip service if that to the irrelevance of the changes to the ethics scandal, demanding that everyone be offended at the changes themselves, branding anyone who's not offended at the changes a "snowflake" as if that makes any damn sense, and just generally flailing and lashing out. Along with the occasional rant about "degeneracy" (and they make it very explicit what they mean by that) or hair dye or pronouns or how much they hate Madeleine Roux.
    Last edited by Dacia Ultan; 2021-10-16 at 04:52 PM.

  17. #1377
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post

    Again, Blizzard just hates its players because apparently the term "greenskin" is the glue which holds the entire game together.
    How about answering without sarcasm? Why do you think "greenskins" are being removed?
    And it is by far the only change we are complaining about, do not pretend that we are just talking about couple specific things as making or breaking the WoW - but it is an egregious example of WTF, not to mention it is clear that they are going to continue to "clean the game" for a foreseeable future, thus more debatable stuff is likely to follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
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  18. #1378
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    How about answering without sarcasm? Why do you think "greenskins" are being removed?
    Because they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    And it is by far the only change we are complaining about, do not pretend that we are just talking about couple specific things as making or breaking the WoW - but it is an egregious example of WTF, not to mention it is clear that they are going to continue to "clean the game" for a foreseeable future, thus more debatable stuff is likely to follow.
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  19. #1379
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    How about answering without sarcasm? Why do you think "greenskins" are being removed?
    Most likely? Because if GW was going to pounce, Blizzard already being in deep shit on another count would create an opportunity. Just because they did it before and failed doesn't mean they won't try it again; their strategy seems to be less about winning than about trying to undermine.

  20. #1380
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    There are couple of big obvious problems with that - while we know just how very anal GW is about their trademarks:

    1. Green-skins/greenskins/green skins are not copyrighted and realistically cannot be copyrighted (at least I can't find anything contrary about this). GW failed with the Imperial Guard/Eldar for self-explanatory reasons leading to the whole Astra Militarum/Aeldari bullshit.
    2. Why just now exactly together with the rest of changes/removals and not a decade before? The timing cannot be less coincidental.
    It would be now because games work shop has been on a copy right bender for the last few months with things like banning all fan animations based on the setting taking down custom 3D models or copyright claiming review videos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Will they find some other voice actor for Thrall since he is voiced by Metzen? With Blizzard taking out devs game attachments to the game itself no doubt the same goes for devs voicing the characters too?

    Metzen is one of the founders and an old guard. Blizzard's new direction to stamp out its own creators seems to make this the next logical step.
    As far as I’m aware there only taking out employee references for those directly involved with Sexual harassment not all employee references.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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