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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Didn't Garithos almost retake Lordaeron for the humans?
    Too bad that it was under control of Detheroc.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Too bad that it was under control of Detheroc.
    Pretty sure he was freed from Detheroc's control by then.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    on another note I hope they don't retcon it into "Detheroc has already mind controlled Garithos when he had the Blood Elves executed" and just leave it as a sober Garithos being racist
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    "Detheroc had already mind controlled Garithos when he had the Blood Elves executed"
    Seeing as how nobody in Warcraft seems to do bad things of their own accord anymore, but rather because they are under some variety of mind control, I'd say it is highly likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Source?

    Because the Alliance saw Garithos as the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military at best and a very succesful warlord at worst.

    By that logic you could sooner say Jaina was the leader of the Alliance at the time since she led the survivors of Lordaeron, with fleets from the other major nations, to Kalimdor.


    ~Ask CDev Answers - Round 3
    You mean between the reinforcements all Alliance member states sent him serving under his command, the Chronicle v3 stating he commanded the main Alliance force in the fight against the Scourge and even the (remaining) leadership of an Alliance state abiding by his orders (no matter how garbage and counter-intuitive to the benefits of the Alliance they were) as evidenced by Dalaran?
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #26
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    So in your logic...you can't do morally subjective things while having an opinion on how other people handle things?? Is that the gist of this post? Hmmm okay

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Credit for giving me that idea goes to Ainh, a dwarf fan and Alliance of Lordaeron supporter, however misguided he can be at times in his zeal.

    So, Mathias Shaw, the leader of the SI7 and generally man in charge of Alliance spy network and other cloak and dagger operations. The Man of Mystery... supposedly. So far only mystery about his is how that babbling, bumbling baboon managed to end up as the head spymaster of the whole Alliance.

    Aside from his many, many fuckups on the spying front there is one thing in particular that struck me as odd and dumb.

    He talks shit about Garithos (in a clumsy attempt from the writers to whitewash the Forsaken which just fails entirely because EVEN IF we decide that "he was rude and racist" is a good reason for betrayal and murder that still does not excuse killing his army and other Lordaeron survivors with them). But even ALL THAT aside... Isnt that a bit weird how a SPY MASTER throws shade at a commander for... underhanded actions and agendas? So... he criticizes Garithose's morality and his moral choices and etc, while being a leader of a secret service.

    So what, he , as a spy, a master of spies in fact, thinks that underhanded decisions, secret agendas, morally questionable choices and ruthlessness is... wrong? That would explain a lot why his and his agents work is so laughably inefficient and fucked. Imagine being a spy who operates without ruthlessness, deception, morally dubious tricks and without having several different agendas in mind.
    I know a butcher who has pet horses and rabbits, touching those would make it more likely for you to end on the chopping block than they would. Yet he still sells both horse and rabbit meat.

    As difficult as it is for some to grasp: People can dissociate their feelings from their actions, it is no different than playing the devil's advocate, or from considering an idea without accepting or believing it.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #28
    The Patient Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You mean between the reinforcements all Alliance member states sent him serving under his command, the Chronicle v3 stating he commanded the main Alliance force in the fight against the Scourge and even the (remaining) leadership of an Alliance state abiding by his orders (no matter how garbage and counter-intuitive to the benefits of the Alliance they were) as evidenced by Dalaran?
    The Alliance send rienforcements to Garithos because he was the leader of the most powerful force present that had even a marginal succes against the Scourge at that point. Ofcourse survivors of the Scourge would flock to his cause for either survival or revenge. Let's not pretend it was only the Alliance that flocked to Garithos, the neutral blood elves of Quel'thalas send an army to assist Garithos too after all.

    Even after they realised what a racist piece of work he was, they kept aiding him until he tried to execute them, same can be send from the rienforcements send from Ironforge (and did Magni at the time even know of Garithos' racism?)

    Also, Dalaran can hardly be blamed, that'd be like me putting a gun to your head, forcing you to do what I want, and then a victim blaming you afterwards and not me.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Source?

    Because the Alliance saw Garithos as the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military at best and a very succesful warlord at worst.

    By that logic you could sooner say Jaina was the leader of the Alliance at the time since she led the survivors of Lordaeron, with fleets from the other major nations, to Kalimdor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    The Alliance send rienforcements to Garithos because he was the leader of the most powerful force present that had even a marginal succes against the Scourge at that point. Ofcourse survivors of the Scourge would flock to his cause for either survival or revenge. Let's not pretend it was only the Alliance that flocked to Garithos, the neutral blood elves of Quel'thalas send an army to assist Garithos too after all.

    Even after they realised what a racist piece of work he was, they kept aiding him until he tried to execute them, same can be send from the rienforcements send from Ironforge (and did Magni at the time even know of Garithos' racism?)

    Also, Dalaran can hardly be blamed, that'd be like me putting a gun to your head, forcing you to do what I want, and then a victim blaming you afterwards and not me.
    Garithos is the de facto leader of the Alliance in Lordaeron, just as Jaina was in Kalimdor. There was no centralized Alliance command at that point: most of Eastern Kingdoms served Garithos, with Azeroth/Stormwind mostly absent and kingdoms like Gilneas mostly withdrawn; the Kalimdor survivors served under Jaina's command; the Alliance navy and Kul'tirans continued to serve Daelin. Garithos was put in charge of Quel'thelas, Dalaran, and Khaz Modan forces in addition to Lordaeron. Dalaran followed his orders and were willing to execute former members of the Kirin Tor for him. But yes, if you need a source, Chronicle Vol 3, p. 90 cites Garithos as the leader of the Alliance's Lordaeron forces.

    As for this "putting a gun to [Dalaran's] head," what's your source on that? I've seen no reference of Dalaran acting under duress. The most apologetic line offered was from Jailor Kassan saying it was a shame to see a good wizard (Kael'thas) go bad. No one even suggests they don't want to execute the elves.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Credit for giving me that idea goes to Ainh, a dwarf fan and Alliance of Lordaeron supporter, however misguided he can be at times in his zeal.

    So, Mathias Shaw, the leader of the SI7 and generally man in charge of Alliance spy network and other cloak and dagger operations. The Man of Mystery... supposedly. So far only mystery about his is how that babbling, bumbling baboon managed to end up as the head spymaster of the whole Alliance.

    Aside from his many, many fuckups on the spying front there is one thing in particular that struck me as odd and dumb.

    He talks shit about Garithos (in a clumsy attempt from the writers to whitewash the Forsaken which just fails entirely because EVEN IF we decide that "he was rude and racist" is a good reason for betrayal and murder that still does not excuse killing his army and other Lordaeron survivors with them). But even ALL THAT aside... Isnt that a bit weird how a SPY MASTER throws shade at a commander for... underhanded actions and agendas? So... he criticizes Garithose's morality and his moral choices and etc, while being a leader of a secret service.

    So what, he , as a spy, a master of spies in fact, thinks that underhanded decisions, secret agendas, morally questionable choices and ruthlessness is... wrong? That would explain a lot why his and his agents work is so laughably inefficient and fucked. Imagine being a spy who operates without ruthlessness, deception, morally dubious tricks and without having several different agendas in mind.
    I think his main gripe with Garithos what that he was... dumb, and how his actions just caused further harm down the line, like alienating the Blood Elves, which were an asset during the situation. I mean that's how it read to me.

  11. #31
    It would be much more interesting if the SI 7 was like the Dai Li of Avatar (the secret police of Ba Sing Se).
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

    All of this cosmological stuff is too boring for me. I'd like to get Warcraft back, please. my thing is killing defias and orcs.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm pretty sure he condemned Garithos for being a racist ass-hat that cost the Alliance Quel'Thalas by throwing the Blood Elves to the Scourge simply because he hated them, not "underhanded actions and agendas".

    On top of that, even if this still technically classifies as a "morally questionable choices", it's not the kind of morally questionable choice that's relevant to the work of a spymaster or even a military commander. Garithos simply let his prejudice drive his actions, shooting the Alliance in the foot in the process. Meanwhile the morally dubious work of spymasters is supposed to be for the benefit of their nation. Kinda a significant difference.

    Furthermore, even if he condemned Garithos for what you projected at him, Garithos was the leader of the Alliance at the time. His position required a different approach than that of a spymaster, particularly in regards to politics. A spymaster has the benefit of working from the shadows, where their underhanded antics remain hidden. Garithos was a public figure and his methods alienated his allies. Which was particularly damning under the dire circumstances. So even if you weren't misrepresenting Shaw's commentary, you'd still comparing apples to oranges.

    Don't get me wrong, Shaw is still a terrible person for the job, vide all the times he and his SI:7 had been made utter fools by the Alliance's enemies. The biggest offender being the time when he listened to Anduin's utter idiocy and agreed to send his agents to Orgrimmar while ordering them to make their presence known to Sylvanas, which allowed her to feed the Alliance whatever bullshit spectacle she wanted. But this thread has squat to do with that and instead is "Alliance posters twisting the lore only to then cry about what they headcanoned into existence" thread #523407629376423.
    Basically this. Like Shaw isn't immune to holding the idiot ball because, well, Warcraft's writing, but his gripe's about Garithos just sucking at his job and what it cost the alliance in the long run are very valid.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    The Alliance send rienforcements to Garithos because he was the leader of the most powerful force present that had even a marginal succes against the Scourge at that point. Ofcourse survivors of the Scourge would flock to his cause for either survival or revenge. Let's not pretend it was only the Alliance that flocked to Garithos, the neutral blood elves of Quel'thalas send an army to assist Garithos too after all.

    Even after they realised what a racist piece of work he was, they kept aiding him until he tried to execute them, same can be send from the rienforcements send from Ironforge (and did Magni at the time even know of Garithos' racism?)

    Also, Dalaran can hardly be blamed, that'd be like me putting a gun to your head, forcing you to do what I want, and then a victim blaming you afterwards and not me.
    Except, again, they weren't simply aiding him. They sent troops to serve under his command. If they didn't consider him to be the commander in charge they could have simply have their troops work alongside him. And not only were the Blood Elves the only non-Alliance members, they were a former member with the prospects of rejoining (kinda the point of Shaw's commentary that's the topic of this thread). So I'm not sure what mentioning them is supposed to prove.

    As for Dalaran, like @Aresk said, I have no clue where you're getting the idea that they were the victims of anything in regards to Garithos. Rommath outright said that the Kirin Tor simply turned a blind eye and neither Garithos nor Kirin Tor members made any remarks indicating what you're claiming.

    And no, the Dwarves did not know of his racism. Though, again, I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Garithos is the de facto leader of the Alliance in Lordaeron, just as Jaina was in Kalimdor. There was no centralized Alliance command at that point: most of Eastern Kingdoms served Garithos, with Azeroth/Stormwind mostly absent and kingdoms like Gilneas mostly withdrawn; the Kalimdor survivors served under Jaina's command; the Alliance navy and Kul'tirans continued to serve Daelin. Garithos was put in charge of Quel'thelas, Dalaran, and Khaz Modan forces in addition to Lordaeron. Dalaran followed his orders and were willing to execute former members of the Kirin Tor for him. But yes, if you need a source, Chronicle Vol 3, p. 90 cites Garithos as the leader of the Alliance's Lordaeron forces.

    As for this "putting a gun to [Dalaran's] head," what's your source on that? I've seen no reference of Dalaran acting under duress. The most apologetic line offered was from Jailor Kassan saying it was a shame to see a good wizard (Kael'thas) go bad. No one even suggests they don't want to execute the elves.
    I'm not sure if calling Jaina an Alliance leader at that point in time is really accurate. She was nowhere in the chain of command, her exodus wasn't authorized by anyone other than Medivh and was essentially a doomsday cult that just happened to be right thanks to Medivh's foresight and Theramore hasn't even joined the Alliance at the time because the Alliance simply didn't know of it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  14. #34
    That's probably why he absolutely sucks at his job, he was replaced by a dreadlord and tried to stop the uncrowned from saving SW. I don't think Shaw has ever accomplished anything of not and SI:7 only exists to get tricked and lead the alliance into traps.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm not sure if calling Jaina an Alliance leader at that point in time is really accurate. She was nowhere in the chain of command, her exodus wasn't authorized by anyone other than Medivh and was essentially a doomsday cult that just happened to be right thanks to Medivh's foresight and Theramore hasn't even joined the Alliance at the time because the Alliance simply didn't know of it yet.
    Blizzard expanded on Jaina's exodus in Rise of the Lich King, allegedly, with Antonidas instructing Jaina to go not long before Arthas laid siege to Dalaran. I haven't read the book myself, but Chronicle Volume 3 corroborates it. She apparently stayed in Eastern Kingdom for several months after Medivh's warning, as Arthas razed Quel'thelas, only leaving after Antonidas urged her to. As for the chain of command, she was a Kirin Tor agent throughout the main campaign; I have no clue where that would place her, but she was put in charge of that expedition by Antonidas and rallied the forces she took with her, making her the leader for Lordaeron survivors, some Gilnean forces, dwarves, gnomes, and high elves (again, according to Chronicle Vol 3, though the Gilnean reference is from the WC3 orc campaign).

  16. #36
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guisadop View Post
    It would be much more interesting if the SI 7 was like the Dai Li of Avatar (the secret police of Ba Sing Se).
    "King Turalyon and Queen Alleria, may I ask what happened in Tyr's Hand Square in the Second War? I heard King Turalyon was involved in whatever happened there"

    "SI:7! arrest this man and take him to Telogrus Rift to be re-educated!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Blizzard expanded on Jaina's exodus in Rise of the Lich King, allegedly, with Antonidas instructing Jaina to go not long before Arthas laid siege to Dalaran. I haven't read the book myself, but Chronicle Volume 3 corroborates it. She apparently stayed in Eastern Kingdom for several months after Medivh's warning, as Arthas razed Quel'thelas, only leaving after Antonidas urged her to. As for the chain of command, she was a Kirin Tor agent throughout the main campaign; I have no clue where that would place her, but she was put in charge of that expedition by Antonidas and rallied the forces she took with her, making her the leader for Lordaeron survivors, some Gilnean forces, dwarves, gnomes, and high elves (again, according to Chronicle Vol 3, though the Gilnean reference is from the WC3 orc campaign).
    +Stromic forces too
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    He talks shit about Garithos (in a clumsy attempt from the writers to whitewash the Forsaken which just fails entirely because EVEN IF we decide that "he was rude and racist" is a good reason for betrayal and murder that still does not excuse killing his army and other Lordaeron survivors with them). But even ALL THAT aside... Isnt that a bit weird how a SPY MASTER throws shade at a commander for... underhanded actions and agendas? So... he criticizes Garithose's morality and his moral choices and etc, while being a leader of a secret service.
    You do understand that there is a huge difference between what Garithos did and how Matthias Shaw would handle the same situation, right? Garithos was not just "rude and racist", he was a terrible leader, and an even shittier person to represent the Alliance of Lordaeron. When you are racist against factions of your own alliance, and you willingly send them on missions that cannot possibly be completed, and you just don't really care if those people die, because you view them as less than your people, that is the kind of shit that leads to coup d'etats and mutinies. Additionally, making alliances with enemies of one's enemies, and having that other enemy be what ultimately brought your kingdom down... is dumb as hell. That said, he is also the sort of leader that would have led him to be beheaded for all those things by a king, if there was one alive at the time. Uther would have put his hammer through Garithos' head if he was alive to see how the elves were treated.

    The rest is correct. Matthias has been written as incompetent. I'm neither surprised by this, nor am I shocked that now the writers want him to be gay, now, too, as if he isn't bad enough now, let's just put the distraction of sexuality in there to make it even worse. But, what can I say, that's what happens when people like Madeleine Roux are permitted to write based on what they know, which honestly is bullshit. This is World of WARcraft, not World of Sexcraft.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    "King Turalyon and Queen Alleria, may I ask what happened in Tyr's Hand Square in the Second War? I heard King Turalyon was involved in whatever happened there"

    "SI:7! arrest this man and take him to Telogrus Rift to be re-educated!"

    - - - Updated - - -



    +Stromic forces too
    Yet only horde uses the “re education” through magic so far, how ironic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think his main gripe with Garithos what that he was... dumb, and how his actions just caused further harm down the line, like alienating the Blood Elves, which were an asset during the situation. I mean that's how it read to me.
    That sounds even richer coming from Shaw, who bungled up 90% of his missions.

    90% because he at least has one successful infiltration so fair is fair.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    That sounds even richer coming from Shaw, who bungled up 90% of his missions.

    90% because he at least has one successful infiltration so fair is fair.
    Those numbers feel highly speculative lmao. The fact that he is still alive tell us more about his performance IMO.

    And again, Shaw's incompetence as Stormwind's Spymaster, whatever those might be, will always fall amazingly short of Garithos shortsightedness and prejudice costing the Alliance the whole north of the EK.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Those numbers feel highly speculative lmao. The fact that he is still alive tell us more about his performance IMO.

    And again, Shaw's incompetence as Stormwind's Spymaster, whatever those might be, will always fall amazingly short of Garithos shortsightedness and prejudice costing the Alliance the whole north of the EK.
    The only thing that costed Garithos was trusting Sylvanas, which was not a fruit of his prejudice.

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